You Caught Your Husband Watching Porn… Now What?! | Savannah Paul - EP 54 - Furiously Curious Coaching

You Caught Your Husband Watching Porn… Now What?! | Savannah Paul - EP 54

May 2, 2026

SAVANNAH: [00:00:00] I actually used to have one like five years ago. Wow. So we lot more back then where we kind of talked about the same stuff, but we're, we're starting a new one soon. We just haven't really yet. We still need to build our studio and everything, but, um, yeah. But more recently now that I've started this page that I've been doing.

KYLE: Okay. So you've been at this for a while? Um,

SAVANNAH: for a while. As in like, we did it forever ago and then kind of took a break and then I did a lot more deep healing work and now I've kind of started it up again, so.

KYLE: Okay. Okay. I'm excited to get into it. Yeah. Um, any questions for me?

SAVANNAH: Um, I just wanted to see if there's anything in particular that you want me to talk about.

I have like probably a hundred, one different topics that I could discuss and I feel comfortable discussing anything. Um, but if there's something specific that you want me to focus on, like let me know.

KYLE: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll also, my style is very ational style, so it'd be like us grabbing lunch and it happens to be recorded.

Cool. Um, and, and so we'll just go with the flow and, uh, I'll send [00:01:00] you a recording afterwards as well. If there's anything you wanna clip out.

SAVANNAH: Okay.

KYLE: Um, then we can, so there's, don't have to worry about it when we're recording, if you say something wrong or, um, yeah. Give, give, give opportunity for that. So, um, I always, uh, start my podcast with prayer.

Just ask for a blessing. You okay with that? I'm assuming you are. Okay. Jesus, thank you so much that, uh, Savannah and I get to hang out here today and have a chat about something that I, uh, know is important to you and that's our healing. Um, so I ask that you would, uh, be with us and, uh, bless us and give us clarity of mind as, uh, I interview her and that you would bless her as well and give her what she needs and that your, um, your spirit would be here.

And that it would be a huge blessing to, uh, everyone who listens, uh, down the road. Um, in your name I pray. Amen.

SAVANNAH: Amen. Thank you.

KYLE: You bet. Okay. Um, I will just, uh, yeah. Roll into it. So, Savannah Paul, thank you for coming on The Furious Curious Show. I, I appreciate you being here. I'm really excited to talk to you.[00:02:00]

Um. Tell me a little bit about, actually no, I should back up here. So I found out about you, uh, through Instagram. I don't know if someone forwarded me a reel or if I just naturally found your page and, um, I think it's called Garden and Grove. Mm-hmm. How'd you come up with that name by the way? What is that?

SAVANNAH: Good question. So, um, I'm LDS and so I believe that the Restored Church of Jesus Christ is back on the earth and that it was restored through a prophet named Joseph Smith and his vision of God and Jesus Christ happened in what we call the sacred grove. It was in New York City in the 18 hundreds. We also really fully believe in the Garden of Eden story, and my husband is really into like deep ancient scripture and lots of symbolism.

And so we kind of like to look at our family as like our Garden of Eden that we're cultivating and that we're trying to nurture and, um, nourish and so garden mixed with Grove. You know, uh, biblical principles mixed with the, um, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is kind of how [00:03:00] we have been looking at that.

And it's funny you ask 'cause the other day I'm like, this doesn't really have a lot to do with what I share online, so maybe I need to change my handle. But for now that's what it is.

KYLE: Fair enough. Okay, cool. So I, what's interesting is that you help women specifically that ha have husbands that are dealing with a porn addiction or have had ha dealt with a porn addiction in the past.

Correct. Is that how you would summarize it?

SAVANNAH: Yeah, yeah. I help women to heal from betrayal of all kinds, but my specific niche that I'm more familiar with is pornography. And then my husband disclosed kind of a sexual past that I didn't know about after we got married because I didn't, I told him I didn't wanna know.

So it's kind of my own fault. Alright. But, um, that was kind of another side of betrayal that I had to work through and like figure that out with God as well. So that's my personal experience. But yes, I mostly focus on healing from pornography in a marriage.

KYLE: Okay, so I'm not, I didn't know you were LDS and I'm not familiar with, uh, all of that, but how, how did you come to faith and, and, uh, uh, 'cause I know that's a big part of your, your healing now and what you focus on.

So was that before [00:04:00] you were married or, um, and, or is that, is there, is there an assumption to faith right away, uh, in the LDS church? I'm not sure how that, how that all works.

SAVANNAH: Yeah. So my personal story is that I was raised LDS, I've always been a member my whole life. Um, I was baptized at eight, which is pretty typical for LDS families.

And, um, I served a mission when I was. Or 21, um, in Las Vegas. So I was a missionary for 18 months there, and I met my husband. We were married in the temple. We're raising our children in the faith. But, um, I would say anyone who chooses to be a member of the church, like it's, it's pretty cultural when you're a child, just like any other religion.

But I definitely had my moments of like, do I wanna stick around? Like what do I believe about this? Do I believe that what I'm learning is actually true? And I have definitely found, um, my deepest testimony in our faith. Yeah. Okay.

KYLE: So what, um, what happened in your own marriage, uh, and how did you find out your husband was dealing with porn?

Was that something you were dealing with when you were dating already? Um, [00:05:00] or that did come out later?

SAVANNAH: Yeah, so our story, um, my husband was very open and honest with me from the start. Which I was so grateful for, and I realized that that's not the case for everybody. But, um, we had kind of your typical Utah relationship that happens really fast.

And we got married less than six months after we'd met. And I think it was on our third date that I kind of asked my husband like, do you wanna hang out next Tuesday? And he is like, actually, I go to something called the Healing and Recovery Program through church, where a lot of guys get together who struggle with pornography and we kind of help each other through it.

And I was like, oh, okay. Like, it kind of caught me off guard just 'cause I didn't, I wasn't planning on asking him anything like that at that point in our relationship. But, um, I think we both kind of knew that things were moving fast and he was really, um, really confident in where he was at on that path of repentance.

And I had had experiences with guys in the past where like someone in college assaulted me and I knew that he had struggled with [00:06:00] pornography and growing up I, I don't think it was explicitly taught in church, but I kind of adopted this mindset of like. Pornography's a deal breaker. It's always gonna lead to divorce.

You wanna never, ever, ever marry someone who's ever struggled with pornography. And so for me to see someone who was like so confident in telling me that he had struggled, I was like, whoa. Like, it kind of took me by surprise. And so, um, I took it to God and he is like, green light, keep dating him. He's a good guy.

And when we were engaged a few months later, um, my husband called me on the phone. We didn't live like super close to each other and we were just chatting one night and he's like, I just need you to know that I had a relapse with pornography today. And I believe that now that I've made this commitment to you to marry you, that I need to talk to God about it.

I need to talk to my church leaders about it, and I need to talk to you about it. And that I've made this commitment to you. And, um, I, I kind of panicked a little bit and I just remember thinking, I don't know how to handle this, so I'm gonna call him back. So I said, thank you for [00:07:00] telling me I need a minute.

And I just hit my knees and I said, God. You know what I think about this, you know, the experiences that I've had that have shaped my worldview around pornography. Um, not to mention like the insecurities that I had, the worries that like we were waiting until marriage to have sex. And so I was afraid that he would see my body and be like, yeah, that's not what I wanted.

And I think every woman struggles with that to some degree. And I just poured it all out to God and I was like, you've gotta tell me like, do I need to end this now? Is this gonna end in 15 years? If he can't get hold of this? Is this like something okay for me to go into a marriage knowing about this?

What do I, what do I do? And my answer was very specific to me. So anyone listening to this, I don't want you to think this is like the answer that God gives to everybody, but for me. God was very clear in telling me that my husband had used this struggle to become closer to Jesus Christ. And that it was kind of like the water to wine story in the Bible where Jesus takes dirty water that was [00:08:00] washed.

People washed their hands in it before they went into the wedding feast. Yeah. Took it and he changed it into something that nourished them. And so my husband had done that with God. He's like, here's my dirty water. Please take it and change it and use it to nourish me. And so Hayden had a relationship with God that was even deeper than anything I'd seen, because I hadn't circled with something like that.

And God basically told me in that moment, he is like, this is the kind of man that you wanna raise children with. This is the kind of man who you want to teach your children about Jesus Christ and his healing power. And he also told me that he would never stop fighting it. Um, so I didn't go into my marriage with a promise that I'd never have to deal with it.

And I'm grateful that nobody promised me that because it wasn't the truth. Yeah. Um, I went into the marriage knowing that my husband was a man of God and that he would never become complacent. And that, um, something that's so addicting and so hard, especially for a boy who fell into it at age 13 and has, didn't have the resources and tools for a whole decade.

Like to have grace and forgiveness and space for that, um, was [00:09:00] something that I had to learn, but also figuring out how to heal my own heart from the things that were brought up to the surface because of his struggles.

KYLE: Okay, so you're, you're dating and he tells you that he's relapsed again, and you feel, um, you feel that God told you that, Hey, you can keep going with this relationship.

And so you did. And did you, did that you right away think you needed to go do healing work? Or how did it, like how did you respond to it? Like what, what came up or what lingered? Like, did, did you wanna check this phone all the time? Or did you, like what trust issues, um, did it bring up, what, what problems happened that made you, I know we'll talk about this in the deep healing you said you did in the last few years, but what, what, uh, happened after?

SAVANNAH: So after we got married within a month, my husband actually left for Marine Corps boot camp. So for basically the first six months of our marriage, we were long distance and we could only write letters for about half of that time. And I was a little nervous and I would check in with him anytime I could.

Like, have you been feeling tempted? You're not in the best [00:10:00] environment. Like you're under a lot of stress. Do you feel like you've been tempted to watch pornography? And he didn't. And he truly, honestly did not watch porn one time while he was away. Partly 'cause he didn't have a phone for most of it. And partly because I think that he really had built himself up against the adversary in that way.

Um, he was really strong. Yeah. Um, fast forward, we had a podcast together where we talked about that healing. He tied a lot of military analogy into it. I would talk to wives who were feeling betrayed and thinking that something was wrong with them because they were hurting. And I'm like, no, no. God's in this, you know?

And, um, fast forward, like a year or two, and it actually wasn't even a discussion about pornography at all. It was a discussion about my husband's past where, um, I had told him before we got married that I didn't want to know about his sexual history other than we were both virgins. And that was the truth.

And I'm like, basically, anything else I think is gonna be hard for me to let go of. And I know that technically it doesn't matter. And so I just swept it under the rug. And, um, later on, all of it came [00:11:00] out. It was really messy. Came out kind of in stages. We did like a full, a big full disclosure session with a therapist.

And

KYLE: what, why did you wanna start knowing about it? Like, what, what made you after two years decide, Hey, I wanna know now.

SAVANNAH: I didn't, I, I didn't choose it. It was,

KYLE: oh, he just drew to share it.

SAVANNAH: Just, we were kind of flirting about something and he let something slip. And I was like, wait, have you done that before with someone else?

And he was like, yeah. And it was just a big, messy, yucky disclosure. Okay. Like, it wasn't planned, it wasn't clean, it wasn't. Totally honest, like he was caught off guard. I was caught off guard. So after that I started like really struggling with my own self-image, with like the honesty in our marriage, even though it was kind of my own fault that I didn't wanna know, it was really confusing and really messy.

And so I started going to therapy. Um, I joined a women's group that was really kind of women going through similar experiences of betrayal in the marriage. And, um, we did a full disclosure with a therapist where I basically got the whole outline [00:12:00] of all of his pornography history, all of his past, uh, sexual sin, all of his past, just like his own yucky self image as a kid and all the things that kind of contributed to it and thinking that he'd never be worthy of love and just all the things.

Um, just kind of one day big disclosure. And on that day I was like, I, I can't keep living like this. Whatever it is that I believe about the world and about myself and about my husband, it needs to change. Um, all I wanted was to go back in time and say like, I wanna go back to that cute little marriage where I'm nursing my baby on the back porch next to the creek and everything's perfect.

And I don't know. But I couldn't do that and I couldn't change the past. And so eventually I had to say, okay, God, I need you to teach me a different way of looking at this, because right now it's too hurting. It's just too painful for me to, um, keep looking at our life the way that it is. So, um, with like the purity culture aspects of, like, I thought my husband was worth less because of the things he had done [00:13:00] with like, the, um, pornography stuff that was still happening every once in a while.

Like his stretches were getting longer. But, um, he did struggle. Like even after bootcamp, after we did our podcast, there were times where he struggled. And, um, I tried to be as understanding as I could, but all of it kind of compounded with the other betrayal that was happening. And so it was during that time, I was right in the thick of like my young motherhood.

I have three kids now, but at the time I was. Always like pregnant or nursing, and it was just like several years of therapy. Therapy, group therapy, experiential therapy like psychodrama and EMDR and things like that. And really, really deep shots with God. Um, okay. Probably about like halfway through our story.

I'll take a little pause there.

KYLE: Okay. And when you chose to do the podcast initially, what, I mean this is a, I'm sure the LES church is some somewhat similar to, um, a lot of, um, other churches in terms of that there's a lot of shame around this issue and, uh, it's very hidden and [00:14:00] people don't talk about it at all.

You very early on shows like, Hey, that's gotta do a podcast and talk about this publicly. Like what, what made you wanna do that?

SAVANNAH: Um, it definitely came from my husband. I wasn't the one. Oh, okay. Who had the idea? It was my husband's idea. Part of it was because before he met me, I think he had been part of that support group and he would talk to other men and he would like go travel with his church leaders and like give little lessons about it at church and say, look, I know we've all struggled with this and like no one's talking about it.

'cause we all got the, you know, this 12-year-old class lesson about how Ted Bundy started out by watching porn. And so everyone thinks we're gonna become Ted Bundy if we watch porn. So why would we ever wanna tell anybody? Right? And that's not doctrinal. And the church never like stamped their approval on that.

It was just people teaching it in kind of a fear based way, which wasn't helpful. And so, yes, I think in a lot of Christianity, people try to scare people away from pornography, but it really just scares them away from healing from it when they can really [00:15:00] fall into it. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes. I can't remember, did I answer your question?

KYLE: You did. Yeah. So he, he wanted to do the podcast and, and so you were, you, you were cool with it though. You were like, yeah, I, I'm okay with talking. How about how this affected me?

SAVANNAH: Yeah. I felt like at that time we were still kind of little baby newlyweds, and all I had experienced was like the healing from God and that initial disclosure and the initial like, Hey, I'm gonna guide you through this.

Hey, like, I think there maybe had been a couple relapses during the podcast time. And so I again hit my knees and be like, heavenly Father, you know how I need to address this? You know, the truth about like what it means about me, what it means about him. And so that was kind of the message that I shared at that time was like, here's how God can guide you through this.

KYLE: Okay. And what did you learn, uh, what did you not know at that time that you had to learn in the deep healing work? Like what was the, what were some of the things that you assumed or, um, didn't realize what were happening internally? Uh, when it came to this, this issue? [00:16:00]

SAVANNAH: That's the big question. Um, I could probably talk for hours about the answer, but if I had to narrow it down to specific truths that I didn't quite understand at that point in time, it would be that my worth has nothing to do with my husband's behavior.

That my own healing is completely separate from his. And that regardless of what he chooses to do, even though he was healing, like he's always consistently tried to be healing. Yeah. But even when he struggled that it didn't mean anything about me, that my worth was still in God. Um, I have since learned that my constant need to compare myself to other women just came from a really deep insecurity.

It came from a place of not loving who I was, not really knowing who I was. Um, feeling this need to copy other people because I thought that was what he wanted. 'cause that's what he had watched. And so that must be like the ideal and I have to try and figure out what it is without actually watching for myself.

And it was really this really confusing [00:17:00] spiral that, um, later on he actually got deployed for a year. He just returned in October of 2025. So, um, we had just had her third baby. I was doing all this stuff while he was gone trying to just like figure it out once and for all. And um, that was one of the biggest things that I learned was like my identity as Savannah Paul, as a daughter of God is so unique.

My beauty is unique. I get to do whatever it is that feels like Savannah and that's how I'm gonna show up in a more confident space in all areas of my life. But that need to compare myself was really, um, it was really like overpowering for probably the first. Five years of our marriage.

KYLE: Long time. A lot of hard work.

Yeah. What, what made you willing to do the work? Because I, I think there's a lot of guys and, and girls that don't do the work, uh, that are stuck in this spot and, and run away or shut down or, uh, you know, it just adds huge amounts of tension in the marriage and you just to stay stuck in that spot. What made [00:18:00] you decide, Hey, I'm gonna go, you know, talk to a therapist?

'cause that's a battle on its own sometimes for people that they're not willing to even do that.

SAVANNAH: No, I agree. Um, I always recommend therapy. I think therapy is a huge tool. Um, the reason that I initially went to therapy was, I think it was because I felt like I needed someone to hold space for what I was feeling because of the initial disclosure with my husband.

Um, anyone I talked to was like, yeah, that happened like how many years ago? You just need to go over it. Or, um, so yeah, God already forgave him for those sins, so you also just need to forgive him for those sin. And lots of like, okay, well Jesus has covered this, so like, technically it shouldn't matter anymore, but how do I get rid of my own pain then?

Like, why is it still hurting me so bad? And I knew deep down it was probably something that I was thinking or something that I was believing or something that like, you know, I just, I needed someone to tell me like, you're [00:19:00] not crazy. And also, you don't have to believe this forever. You don't have to stay in this place forever.

But I, I needed someone to just hold my hand and walk me through it. Like, I couldn't do it by myself. Yeah. And so initially I went to therapy for my own support. I needed someone to, to teach me how to do it because I didn't have,

KYLE: yeah. Yeah. Did you, how much did you deal with anger when it came to this issue?

SAVANNAH: Um, I have definitely had periods of, lots of anger. Um, makes

KYLE: sense.

SAVANNAH: The angriest times are the times where it means something about me in my own head. I think the angriest times are when those thoughts come up of like, how could you do this to me? Um, I must not be enough for you. You must not love me enough.

Um, in my healing I've learned that all of those things are untrue. Um, it took time to get there and if there's a woman listening to this, I don't want you to think that there's something wrong with you for believing those things. 'cause it took me, [00:20:00] it probably took me 25 years to believe them and then probably another three or four to unbelief them and to something that was a little truer.

But, um, I definitely had periods of anger and there were definitely times where I didn't handle disclosure well and where I wanted to kind of jab at him to make him hurt because he was hurting me. And, um, I found that like, to get the anger out, it's really helpful to like. Do all the things that the therapist tell you, like, hit a pillow or go pull grass outside or throw a ball or whatever.

Like stuff like that can help to get it out. But there have been times where I just got it out at my husband and I just was mad. And I think that that can be normal, but it's not helpful.

KYLE: Yeah. And so as you're, um, dealing with this anger and doing your own work, and now you're have this, uh, Instagram page that you, you choose to start up again.

So you shut down the podcast 'cause you realized you needed to do your own work. Was that like a, uh, a conclusion you guys came to together or did you just say, Hey, like, we're

SAVANNAH: we shut down the [00:21:00] podcast because we had a baby? So it was actually unrelated. I wasn't even doing a lot of deep healing work at that point.

Um, I think it was like a couple months before the initial disclosure that the podcast stopped. So it really had nothing to do with that. But, um, we just decided not to pick it up again because. Partly 'cause I didn't know how to talk about it anymore without melting down. And partly because, um, there's only like so much you can say about porn until it just, you kind of repeat yourself over and over.

So we kind of felt like a year of the podcast, we had like 50 episodes. We're like, this is good, we'll just close the chapter and then see what the future holds. So, um, yeah.

KYLE: Okay. And how did you start up again? Like I, I don't know if you do more than just the Instagram, uh, page that you have, but at, if you do more, feel free to share that.

But how did you choose to start it up again?

SAVANNAH: So, um, last year when my husband was deployed, um, I did, like I said, I did a lot of deep healing. I actually, I didn't do any therapy during that time. Um, my deep healing [00:22:00] really came from like one-on-one times with God. And I attended a women's retreat that was led by my old therapist.

That was like three days long. It was turn your phone off and just get really tight with God and these women in worship music and um, just a place of like connection. And I also had a woman that I hired for a while who was kind of guiding me through truths from God to help heal my nervous system. And basically I found the most healing that I'd ever found during the time where my husband was away.

And I started talking to other women who were also struggling. I have plenty of women friends whose husbands watch porn and who are trying to overcome it, but it's just a struggle for a lot of people. And so I was finding that the truths that I was learning were resonating with other people. And I started realizing like, oh, I actually have a lot of wisdom that God has given me.

That absolutely applied to me, but some of it could totally apply to other people. Some of these truths are just like, [00:23:00] Hey, we're made in the image of God. Hey, um, our identity doesn't change when our husband messes up. Our worth is actually not tied at all to him, and we get to be confident in who we are nonetheless.

And all of those things that I had started to learn over time that were sinking deeper and deeper into my heart were things that I felt like God was calling me to share. And so for a while, I had had the Instagram page before, like three years before I shared little picture quotes and stuff that I was like trying to make sense of during my, my deepest healing.

And during, I guess not my deepest, my most painful healing, it was kind of an outlet for me. Kind of like a, like a journal almost to be like, Hey, I had this thought on my run this morning about like how, you know, I was looking kind of at the sun and then I looked down and everything else looked darker and it's like, oh, and I just focus on God.

Then like everything kind of fades away. Little things like that. But it were just kind of helpful for me to like stay grounded.

KYLE: Yeah.

SAVANNAH: Um, it took a break for it for years. And then during this deployment, um, my husband was like, maybe you should start that page up again. [00:24:00] Um, I started it with a friend. She, I mean, I started it back up again with a friend who knew social media stuff and she was kind of the catalyst to be like, Hey, let's try to grow this, like, let's share things together.

Eventually she, we kind of broke off and she started her own podcast, which is really successful now and I'm super pumped for her and our messages just kind of like, I started talking more about pornography and like the military life and like how I was relying on God during that. And um, it actually had less to do with pornography at the start and more to do with just how I was like relying on God for a lot of things.

So I started sharing kind of about our worth as women, but I didn't necessarily say why or how I learned it. It was more like, Hey, this is something I think we should know, or, Hey, here's a tip for moms. Like, let's go to the car wash. Because then you have a clean car and your kids can sing a song and it's like, you don't have to see anybody, but you can still get out of the house at 4:00 PM And just little things like that just started sharing.

So I started growing. Um, I grew to probably 10,000 followers by last fall or by last winter. [00:25:00] And, um, I can't remember why, but I started sharing a little bit more vulnerable stuff about our, uh, disclosures and about the truths that I had learned about like listening to my body. So, um, during our full disclosure session, like the big one with the therapist, I um, was really surprised to notice that my body actually still wanted to be really close with my husband.

And some people call that a trauma bond. I think in this particular instance it was God telling me, Hey, your marriage is actually safe now and you've never had this much honesty and safety ever. All the walls are down and this is the time to rebuild. And I never got the answer that God wanted me to like leave my husband or anything.

And in that moment it was kinda my anger to be like, oh, my body is like feeling this truth, my body. I can trust my body. That was something I'd learned in a lot of therapy that I've done. And so I started sharing things about that, and then people were like, well, what, what does that have to do with anything?

I'm like, well, here's like a little story about a full disclosure session that we did. And then [00:26:00] people were like, oh my gosh, like I totally did one of those. And then, you know, I'm like, so my husband used to struggle with pornography and here's something that actually helped me shift my perspective a lot.

And then reals, like that started blowing up. I mean, there were women in dms Thursday, still are right? Every Monday I'm like one hour blocked out just to send voice memos to people because I have so many dms that people are just resonating with it so much, especially in the church. And so, um, that has just been a place for me now to actually take all of the things that I've learned, put 'em in little bite-sized chunks of information that people can see online.

And then, um, a couple months ago I was like, maybe I should create some kind of free resource for people that I can just say, instead of DMing everyone individually, I can just say, here's my list of all the things that I tell people and. Here and it'll save me a lot of time and it'll be a great resource for you.

And I started writing it down on like a Word doc, and it just got longer and longer and longer and longer and longer. And I wrote 35,000 words and now it's almost a book, so, oh wow. Um, I, [00:27:00] I basically was like, I recognize what God has done in me and I recognize like going from times of like intense anger and wondering if I was gonna leave my husband to full forgiveness and being able to say, I love you for who you are, and I don't expect you to be perfect, but I want the deepest connection that I can possibly have with you.

So let's heal all the way. Um, it's like I could go into a whole long spiel about how it's like affected our sex life and our intimacy and how actually we are closer than we've ever been because we've taken these struggles to God. Um, because I've learned to listen to my body, because I've learned that it's not my job to manipulate his behavior.

And so I just get to come from a place of authenticity and like being truly ready to connect with him. And so, um, all of those things, like where was I going with this? I'm writing a book. I think that's where I was going. Just say, women just need these truths. Like, it's just, those are the things that healed me, where the [00:28:00] truth that came from God.

And so I wanna point people towards him.

KYLE: Yeah, and I mean, yeah, nine outta 10 guys I think struggle with pornography once a month or like the statistics are insanely high. And so that's why, one of the reasons why I thought it was cool that you had this page because I had my own struggles with it, my own story.

Um, and, uh. Uh, I just found there were so little out there for the women, like, like so little. And, and I'm like, well, I know the statistics on the guy side, so like, this isn't, this isn't good. And so, um, I think it's really cool what you're doing there. What's the, the feedback been, um, on your page and being as open as you are?

Like, is it like, now you're, everyone knows, like the family knows, like a lot of people feel that way when it comes to these issues. They're just like, no one can know that my husband has this issue. Or like, or, you know, vice versa. Uh, um, um, they're not telling their wife like, it, it's so common. Um, have you had negative, uh, pushback, um, have, what's, what's that been like, [00:29:00] just like the family, the church knowing like, oh, you're Savannah Paul, you're, you're the one that, you know, have you had that?

SAVANNAH: Um, I would say the only pushback or negativity that I've gotten has not been from people, us or people who really know us. Um,

KYLE: it's easy that way.

SAVANNAH: We had the podcast five years ago and it was specifically about pornography. So during that time it was a lot more like, Hey, look at this thing we've started and we're that porn couple that talks about how we heal from porn or whatever, or how it affected our marriage and how we turned to God.

And so I feel like back then was kind of more of like a, if anybody was like, what does Savannah think she is doing? Then it probably happened five years ago. Um,

KYLE: okay.

SAVANNAH: This has become, so my husband separate from all of the discussion about pornography. My husband has a YouTube channel where he just talks about like ancient scripture and deep doctrine.

It's called the Stick of Joseph. And he is like, really? He is gotten very successful. So he has almost 80,000 subscribers on YouTube. [00:30:00] So most people who know us actually know him through his channel. Okay. He's got just like plenty. He has a publishing company. He's created kind of a community within that space of people who are just like really interested in the doctrine of the LDS faith.

And so he kind of is known as like the stick of Joseph Guy and he and his brother do it together. And so, um, I think a lot of people actually have found us through him, but he started talking about it a little bit on his channel and he did share on a couple different videos like, Hey, by the way, like I used to struggle with pornography.

I'm super, super open about it. Like super. I don't know if he's mentioned our old podcast or if he's, he's definitely like talked to a few guys on the phone before and like he is just kind of also known by his audience as someone who's like very open about that. Um, yeah, so I think some people have kind of found us through.

Some people have definitely found us through my page on Instagram. I think I have like 20,000 followers now. So we're kind of both attracting that audience. But, um, Hayden and I are going to start another podcast this year. [00:31:00] We just are kind of trying to build it up and find the time to build the studio, but um, we're just kind of remembering the need that there is to discuss this and to help people to find help.

Like you said, if nine, nine out of 10 men are struggling with this, that means nine out 10 women who are married to those men are struggling with this. Probably in silence. Yeah. Because the most common message I get on Instagram is how do I talk to people about this? 'cause I don't wanna air out my husband's dirty laundry.

Yeah. And I don't want family to look at him differently. And people that are saying I should leave him because you know, he struggles with porn and that's like such a deal breaker in these people's minds. And so to have that need and for me to be like, I want to create a community for these women is like my goal.

KYLE: Yeah. One sec. I just accidentally answered a call. My wrist. Watch. I need to turn this off here. Just clip this out later. That should, am I fuzzy?

SAVANNAH: Yeah. I can't see [00:32:00] you very clearly. It's just kind of frozen

KYLE: sec. There we go.

SAVANNAH: Oh, I think you on your phone now.

KYLE: Yeah. Okay. Um, what do you, what is the most common messages you get from women?

Like, what, what are the most common things that they're saying, uh, when they reach out to you?

SAVANNAH: Probably the most common message that I get is, Hey, I just found out that my husband struggles with this, or I found out six months ago that my husband struggles with this and I just have no idea what to do about it.

Um, a lot of women wanna support their husbands, but they don't know how to support their husbands and also manage their own, uh, healing.

KYLE: Yeah.

SAVANNAH: A lot of women don't realize that they can heal from the things that they're struggling with. And, um, so they're like, okay, I'm holding this boulder of my husband's struggle, but I also have this other boulder of my own struggle, and I feel like I can't share it with anybody.

I feel like I can't. Some women feel like they can't [00:33:00] even share it with their husbands because they don't wanna make them feel bad or something. And so. Then I say, well, he's sharing your boulder. You get to share your boulder too. And that's marriage. And you get to hold space for each other's pain and um, yeah, support each other together.

But I would say probably the other most common mess message that I get from people is like, what do I do if he won't stop? Or what do I do if he doesn't have a desire to heal? And those ones are sad, and those ones hurt my heart because I'm like, oh, the answer I give them is, you can heal anyway. And it's possible to get to a point where like you're able to stand with confidence in who you are regardless of what he's doing.

And also, let's learn how to set some boundaries and let's figure out, like if this is. You know, supporting you or whatever, but, um,

KYLE: yeah, yeah,

SAVANNAH: I get a lot from all the extreme.

KYLE: Yeah, I know. So, um, a lot of the guys can get vilified for struggling with this. Uh, and, and some of the reasons why they don't open up about it is because of that and, and, you know, like the, the harsh blow back, um, you can get which [00:34:00] of often is sometimes understandable as well, especially if it's coming from the spouse.

Um, and they're, you know, it's their hurt coming out and not necessarily, you know, the reality of how they really feel. Um, what are the some of the things that you would say to women that find out or in this spot that isn't helpful? Um, when it comes to their husband's, um, struggles with porn? Like, what are some things they're doing that you know, are actually, um, making the problem last longer or aren't helping them get to where they wanna go?

SAVANNAH: I would say something that's not helpful is the vilifying, like you said. Um. I, I had to get to a point where I realized that the mindsets that I had about my husband and about the struggle in general were what were holding me back from healing and from being able to move on and forget.

KYLE: Can you say, can you say that again maybe in different words?

SAVANNAH: So, I realized there was a point in my healing where I had to look at my own worldview and say, the reason that I'm not making more [00:35:00] progress with this is actually because I'm not willing to let go of the framework and the, the view that I have on it. And so I had to say, okay, I'm gonna lay my mindsets and my opinions and my, my worldview about people who watch porn are bad guys.

And people who watch porn are disgusting. And this is, you know, they're doing it to hurt their wives and they're doing it because they don't love them enough and they're doing all the things that are like, you know, all the buzzwords about pornography online from those women who have been hurting. I had to just lay 'em down at God's feet.

And say, I know that this is why I have not been healing is because I haven't been willing to let go of these mindsets that aren't serving me anymore. Mm-hmm. And so, um, instead of believing that,

KYLE: how did, how did you, how did you do that? Because that's, I think, pretty unique. Like there's, there's so much anger in that moment and hurt and pain.

It's really hard to, you know, uh, understand that. Um, and to be like, it's not to take personal responsibility and to stop blaming, um, e even if the husband continues [00:36:00] in, you know, the porn stuff, uh, and they're not choosing to heal. Um, like you said, and I really much agree with this, that you can do your own healing.

And so how did you get to that space? Uh, was that in therapy or was that in, in just your own time in reading the, the bird or,

SAVANNAH: um, I think it was just a mix of all of it and time. And so it had to be, it's kind of like an open wound where you have to have the proper medical care and you have to dress it and you have to nurture it.

You have to take care of it. You also have to let it heal. And so something that was helpful for me was recognizing like my husband has known about this struggle that he's had for 10 years. I just found out like whenever that was, this is brand new for me. And so there is no rush for me to like stitch this wound back up and be like, he'll, heel, heel.

Like the more bandaids I put on it, it's not gonna make you feel any faster. So having patience for myself was crucial in being able to say like, I'm gonna let this be God's timeline and not my own. But [00:37:00] you can't just let the time pass without also taking care of the wound. And for me, taking care of the wound was the therapy.

It was the private sessions with God, with my journal. It was the swear words in my car when I was feeling too overwhelmed to build it. And just saying them to God and being like, I know you can handle this, but I don't wanna feel this way anymore. And so the way I look at it is healing is like a big puzzle and everyone's puzzle looks different.

But God tells you what your next puzzle piece is, and he'll tell you if it's therapy or he'll tell you if it's hiring a coach, or he'll tell you if it's just reading scriptures more. Because sometimes people throw that around like, you probably just need to read your scriptures more. And it's like, well, that's not gonna fix it.

But it definitely is a crucial puzzle piece for most people right. To, to strengthen that relationship with God and hear his voice. And so, um, my puzzle was unique to me and everyone else's puzzle is, is unique to them. But, um, if you're not willing to look for the puzzle pieces, then the puzzle won't [00:38:00] be put together.

Right. Yeah. It's not like just letting time pass is gonna make the puzzle put itself together.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. The only way you can change your belief is with evidence, uh, of learning about some, a framework that can then cause you to have come to a different conclusion. Like I have, um, uh, I I'm sure you've read this Jay Stinger's book, uh, unwanted, um, yeah.

Okay. How sexual brokenness reveals our way to healing. But it just talks about how much of the brokenness that these, that guys are dealing with is tied to, you know, their, their things that have happened to them and in their childhood and, and, and know this was the, this was the drug that was on the table because there's, everyone has the phone in their pocket.

Um, and, and, uh, and if you can understand that and, and learn, you know, what, where these roots come from, how, how much, um, you know, freedom that gives that, it's, that it's not about, um, them in the first couple days that, uh, a spouse finds out about this. What, how should they respond? Like, what, what do you, what recommendations would you give in those [00:39:00] initial days, weeks,

SAVANNAH: I would say my top two suggestions for a woman who has just found out about disclosure are, take it to God regardless of the circumstance.

Take it to God. He will guide your very next step. Like there have been times where I've put my hands up and it's, I've said, it's eight o'clock in the morning, I can't make another decision. I'm so overwhelmed. God, what are we having for breakfast? And he would tell me like, he'll get deep in those details of your life.

Because especially those first few days after dis disclosure, if you kind of feel like you're drowning, like your whole world is upside down, you're like, how did I not know about this? How is he being dishonest? And I didn't find out how was he? Whatever. Um, it's take it to God. It's number one.

KYLE: Alright.

SAVANNAH: And number two, I would say, um, listen to your body and what it eats.

So physically, what kind of food does your body need to eat that day? What kind of movement is your body craving to get some of the nervous energy out? Do you need some space? Do you need extra communication with [00:40:00] him? Do you need, like, everyone's needs are gonna be different in those moments, but um, everyone needs a shower.

Everyone needs food, everyone needs water. And so those things actually tend to get kind of forgotten about when you're in the middle of it. I remember on our full disclosure day, like my therapist had to be like, you're gonna Chick-fil-A right now and you're gonna go get a chicken wrap and you're gonna eat it.

Because I was like, I never wanna think about eating food ever again. Like I, I could not care less about taking care of myself, but if I hadn't taken care of myself, it would not have helped my processing ability.

KYLE: Yeah, yeah. Which I think is some of the reasons why guys choose to stay in their addictions as well, is because of, uh, basically what you're describing right now is a trauma response and that it, in their trauma, they don't think that taking care of themselves and getting free from this is actually, you know, worth it.

Um, they actually, yeah. Sorry, say that again.

SAVANNAH: Or that they as a person are worth it. Like they

KYLE: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

SAVANNAH: For someone else. Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah, yeah. So that, so that's what the, I think a lot of women struggle with as well when [00:41:00] they find out is the self blame, why am I not enough? Uh, some of the first questions, um, even though they didn't do anything wrong, how do they, how, what response would you give that to the self blame?

SAVANNAH: Um, when I have really gross, untrue thoughts in my mind, they come from Satan. And the way I know that is because my body feels like garbage about it. So if someone were to come up to me and say, Hey, the reason that your husband watched porn is 'cause you weren't pretty enough, that would feel like garbage in my stomach and it would make me wanna puke.

And even though I believed it for a while, it's always been a lie from Satan. The reason that it makes me feel disgusting is not because it's true, that it's like the hard truth that I just need to swallow. It's because it's garbage. So being able to find and tell yourself the truth about the situation when you're kind of drowning is really hard.

And that's why I recommend talking with other people in therapy and especially God, because God is like the endless source of truth [00:42:00] and he wants to give it to us. I remember a specific day where I was in therapy and my therapist was like, okay. She's like very faith informed, like a member of my church and we're just like always talking about God in there.

That was like the biggest part of my healing was God. Yeah. And um, she's like, okay, yeah, so your body feels like garbage because it is garbage, so let's try on something else. And she'd be like, what does your body physically do when we say out loud? Like, I have always been enough and I've always been gods and I have always been like, my husband's struggle doesn't define my worth.

Right. And even as I'm saying it right now, it's like you can just breathe like my shoulders relax and I feel that the chills and I feel like my heart is full of the spirit of God. And I know that that's true. Like that's just how I feel truth physically in my body. And so it takes time to unlearn the garbage, especially when it's fed to us for decades of our lives.

But to be able to seek truth from God, he will breathe [00:43:00] truth into anything that you ask him about. He will tell you if your husband's being honest with you, he will tell you if the reason that your husband's watching porn is 'cause you're not pretty enough. And spoiler alert, that's literally never the answer.

But, um,

KYLE: yeah,

SAVANNAH: it's always just the, the truth that counteracts those lies.

KYLE: And, and I think it also, um, just like a lot of these, uh, uh, porn addictions for guys have pushed them into healing and their relationship with God. This is, would you agree that this is also pushing a lot of women that are dealing with this into their relationship with God and, and because it's something that they can't control, that it, it kind of pushes them out of, to, to a feeling of being completely out of control?

SAVANNAH: Yes. I would say that this is definitely one of the biggest things that I've seen. Where women are like, I have no idea what to do with this. And so I have to hit my knees and I have to get the direction from God. That was the case for me to be like, there's nobody that I can [00:44:00] go to who knows the heart of my husband, like God does.

There's nobody, not even the therapist, not even his parents, not even my parents. Like nobody is going to be able to tell you the next piece in your healing or to tell you to stay hi with him or leave him or to tell you how to like get through this step by step the way that God can. Hmm. Um, does that answer your question?

KYLE: Yeah. So, so there's a, a, a tension that I think a lot of women hit in this and, and that they're told to forgive or, uh, and to stay, to pray harder, but they're, but they're also genuinely traumatized. How do you hold both of those realities in the same, at the same time without one of them crushing the other?

SAVANNAH: Um, I think that the two I ideas that forgiveness has to happen immediately. And that pain is real, completely like they contradict each other. Right. And um, the one that I actually don't believe is that forgiveness has to happen immediately. Mm-hmm. Um, I believe that forgiveness takes as much time as it needs to take.

And [00:45:00] for me, I actually went to my husband one day and was like, I forgive you, and this can just all be over and we can forget about it and it doesn't matter anymore. And it was totally a lie, but I was just trying to do it. I was just trying to be like, okay, I have the faith. Maybe I don't have enough faith and that's why I'm not healed yet.

And that's why I still wanna throw up about this. But like, let's just try it. Let's just forgive and see if it just, all of it.

KYLE: Yeah.

SAVANNAH: It was like, it basically was me trying to sweep it under the rug again and to say. I, I can't, I, God's not healing me fast enough, so I'm just gonna do it myself. And it wasn't authentic, um, for me to be able to say, truthfully, I forgive you for the pain that you caused me, and I forgive the other people that you did stupid things with.

And I forgive, like the porn stars for freaking creating the content in the first place, or the people managing the porn star. Like there's such a stupid industry. Yeah. Um, for me to be able to say, I forgive [00:46:00] God had to uproot all the garbage that was in me, I could not truthfully say, I forgive you when I still believe that I wasn't enough for him.

Yeah. I could not say, I forgive you. When in my head, while we were being intimate, I was still thinking about what he had watched. I couldn't. Mm-hmm. It just was impossible because forgiveness is like, I'm gonna let this burden be gone from me. Right. But I can't say that this burden is gone for me when it's not.

And I truly believe that God cares more about our complete healing than our immediate healing. And so I would read the story of the woman with the issue of blood in the Bible and how Jesus was like, you're done healed. And I'm like, why won't you just do that for me? Like I know you can. I know you have the power to do that.

Why won't you just do it? And then I realized last year while Hayden was deployed and I had this whole moment with God, and I wrote God a letter. And I was like, I get it now. Like you didn't want me to just stop hurting. You wanted me to stop comparing myself, and you wanted me to stop hating my body and you wanted me to stop like thinking that I needed a boob job in order to [00:47:00] be pretty and you wanted me to stop like all this stuff.

You just wanted me to heal all the way. And that's why it took so long was because it was so like, there was so much and it was so deep. And then when it was all gone, I was driving down the street a month after my husband came home from deployment. Just bawling my eyes out and praising God and saying, I see what you did.

Like I see how our marriage has healed. I see how I am not the same person I was four years ago. I see how like I can talk about this with women and not feel like I need to start crying because I have so much shame and insecurity about it. Like now I feel capable of seriously praising and glorifying God in this and sharing the truth that he has.

He has healed me. He has healed my heart, he has healed my nerves, and I can say it certain that my baseline is no longer pain.

KYLE: And it takes a lot of faith as well, because we want things to go fast. And the fact that it takes years and years, it's been my own experience as well, uh, four or five years that it, that's, we wanna rush it [00:48:00] and we don't, we want it just to be fixed now.

Like we want everything now. Yeah. Um, and, and God's about working in, in us, not necessarily our spouse. He wants to deal with us first, and that's a hard, uh, hard conclusion to come to. Um, uh, what would you say to the woman though, who is furious like white, like white knuckle angry, but feels she's not allowed to be because she's a Christian wife?

SAVANNAH: Um, anger is not a sin. I personally don't believe anger is a sin. I don't know if you would agree with me on that. Um, I believe that acting,

KYLE: I think some, some anger is

SAVANNAH: maybe, I think that acting in anger can be a sin. I think that if I'm angry, so then I go like, cuss out my husband, that, that's like not helpful.

I wouldn't say that that's like something that God's gonna encourage me to do, but I think that feeling anger that like my husband lied to me. And feeling anger that he was doing something behind my back and feeling anger that, um, that I, I've just been angry at my situation before. I've just been like, Hey, I'm mad that this is something that I have to face right now and I didn't do anything to [00:49:00] deserve it, quote unquote, you know, like, I didn't cause this sin.

So like why am I being so affected by it? It's unfair. Um, I think the anger when women call me and they're bawling their eyes out and they're like, I hate him. And I'm so mad. I say, you're totally allowed to feel that. Because when my kid, when my 3-year-old comes to me, just like pissed out of her mind, 'cause she's, her brother hit her, and she's so mad.

I don't tell her like, okay, get over it. I say, come here, like, come down my lap. I'll hold you. I know it's not okay that he did that is it, it's not. And so your feelings around it are totally valid. Um, I don't say that your feelings justify a particular action that's hurtful and not helpful. I do say that your feelings are totally allowed.

Yeah. And that they don't have to last forever, and that we can work through that. But we don't have to like guilt ourselves or rush ourselves out of just feeling the consequences of our situation. It's just mortality. It's just [00:50:00] like we are hurt by people and we're allowed to hurt because of it. Because at its core it is a form of betrayal.

Now I wanna clarify, there's a difference between intent versus impact. So maybe your husband isn't like, I'm gonna go betray my wife today. That's not like his goal with watching porn. His goal is to get a quick hit of dopamine and cope with stress, probably, which I'm not saying that's okay, but the impact is still that she feels betrayed because he looked outside of their marriage for that.

So holding space for both things to be true at the same time can be helpful. But I don't ever try to talk a woman out of her feelings 'cause he didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I don't ever try and say a mat to a man like, no, you must have betrayed, you must have been trying to hurt her feelings because you did that.

Like everyone's experience is valid and they don't cancel each other out.

KYLE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that myself too. In, in, uh, my wife, uh, saying in the different therapies we did that, um, um, she was as hurt as she was and I said, well, I never meant to, like, it was never my intent to hurt you. And my counselor said, well, if you drove her over [00:51:00] with a car accidentally Yeah.

Would she still have been driven over by a car? I'm like, yeah, okay. Well that's what you did. You drove over and so that's what you're dealing with. And that's the, the reality. So.

SAVANNAH: Well, and for her to understand though that you didn't mean to it makes it a little less personal. Yes. Even if you accidentally backed her over, like, yeah, she's still in the hospital, but like.

She can know that it wasn't a result of her not being enough for you, that you backed her over with the car. Right? Yeah. So it actually helps to soothe both sides to understand that

KYLE: difference.

SAVANNAH: Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. But I think even that's hard for women to understand because they're like, well, you, you Googled it.

What do you mean? It's not like, you know, you were driving too fast accidentally or something like, like it was. And so I think the education around it is really important. You know, this book that I referenced earlier, um, unwanted by Jay Singer, really talks about that, that it's, it's much bigger than just, you know, the, the simple action itself.

SAVANNAH: It's,

KYLE: I'm how,

SAVANNAH: yes, go ahead. Women like men aren't watching porn. Sorry. Alcoholics don't drink [00:52:00] because they're thirsty. Men don't watch one because they're lacking in that area of life. It's literally just the drug of choice. It's literally the dopamine cycle in their mind. They got into as a child, didn't have the tools to overcome it, or maybe they found it later in life.

But until you have that shame, that's eliminated. And until you have the tools and until you're willing to make progress, like it makes sense why so many men struggle because it's so addict.

KYLE: Yeah. How do you know if your husband's actually changing or not? And, and like, what is genuine recovery versus just hiding it better?

And and do you have any advice to have been that are wondering that?

SAVANNAH: Yes, I do. Sometimes I wonder if I sound like a little hippie dippy when I get into this stuff, but I'll just repeat myself. The body, you listen to your body. There have been times where, and my husband, I just wanna clarify. My husband is okay with me sharing every, everything that I share about our story.

Um, he does the same, but [00:53:00] there have been times where we've been like being intimate and I'm like, there is a huge brick wall up in front of us and like, it's not me. I don't know where it's coming from. But my body is like tense. And it's like, I can tell that there is just like something there that is blocking us from being able to truly connect.

And I'll ask him and I'll say, Hey, is there something that we need to talk about? Because like, you're not even here. And maybe it's not during sex. Maybe it's just like he comes home from work and like, you can, you can just feel, I, I, I can't explain it. You can just build it in your body. Mm-hmm.

KYLE: Yeah. It's an emotional thing.

It's an emotional, yeah. Wall that's up. Yeah.

SAVANNAH: It's an emotional wall. But it's also like, in a way, it's kind of physical too, because when my husband and I are fully present with each other and we're hanging out and we're on a date and we're connecting and there's like no, um, no secrets, there's a different feeling in my body.

Like it's that same, like shoulders can relax. I feel that spirit [00:54:00] of God being like, you can trust him. So it's, it's twofold. It's God like telling us. I call it the God filter, where if my husband's like, oh yeah, I'm doing good. Like I haven't struggled. And I'm like, I don't know if I believe you. So I literally take that to God.

I'm like, God, is he telling me the truth? Like, can I trust him in this moment? And I, I believe that God is clear about that. I believe that God wants to facilitate honesty in our marriage and that God doesn't hide things from us. And so when it's tricky to like hear what God is saying, I think that's where the body comes in and it's like my body feels peace.

So I believe that I can, I believe my husband or no way. Like I'm totally feeling that tension and that discomfort and that like, you know, sometimes it might be just a result of your own, like those, your own insecurities and the things and whatever. And in those moments too, I say just stop. Like you don't have to force anything that doesn't feel connecting and truly intimate.

But um. [00:55:00] Your body knows, and God knows the truth.

KYLE: And, um, so things are,

SAVANNAH: yeah, go ahead.

KYLE: There's a temptation, I think, uh, in that spot also to become, uh, the police man, uh, it, when it comes to this issue or, and, and have a need for control. And that can sometimes push the guy to not be honest because they might be struggling or, or, you know, um, it was nothing like before, but they still relapsed it to a certain degree and they're just beating the shit outta them themselves, be before, uh, um, about it, um, mentally.

And so they're feeling really heavy when they come home and, and the wife senses that and knows there's this wall up and her own insecurities come flooding in. And so she becomes, you know, super like in their face about it, or very avoidant or whatever their, uh, um, um, thing is. And that actually can make him shut down more or not, not want to share.

Um, how, how did you. Learn to create space for that to, to, um, or what would you say to woman in that spot to say, Hey, if you're feeling that wall, [00:56:00] it's not helpful to like, just bombard him with 50 questions, you know, because he's, you know, next time he's for sure not gonna tell you. Uh, and I'm not saying that's right, but it's, you know, what's, what's helpful there might

SAVANNAH: be consequence of the policing.

Yeah. Um, I like to encourage couples to just pick a time to talk about this and then you can expect it and she can expect it. And then your whole marriage doesn't have to be about it. And, um, two women who, um, well let me back up. When it comes to like that conversation, you get to decide if it's every day, if it's every week, if it's every quarter.

Like how often do you want to know? How quickly do you want to know if he's had a relapse? But it needs to be an agreement in your marriage and not an expectation to say like, this is what I'm expecting him to do when he's not doing it. Um, if he's not on the same page as you with this, like, it makes sense why you're not gonna have that desire met.

Right. Um, [00:57:00] I also recommend having an accountability person that's outside of the marriage. Just like a little side note, um, who's not emotionally for the, for the guy. For the guy. Yep. And also for the girl, like girls, we, we need to talk with other women too. And I know that there's like a, oh, like what if she thinks differently about my husband?

But again, therapy can be great for that. God can tell you if you've got a best friend that you can trust with this or a mom or whoever. Um, yeah. There are actually plenty of people who can hold space for this because they've probably experienced it themselves and they're kind of rainbow. But, um, what was the other thing I was gonna say?

Um, when talking about it, what was your question again?

KYLE: About the policemen. About like how, how, how to create space to, you know, respond well in those areas.

SAVANNAH: Um, this is kind of a tangent of little side note, but also when it comes to like that compulsive need to check his phone. To, um, like monitor what he's doing.

I feel like that kind of goes along with the policing. Like, I need to control this in order for me to be okay. Um, a lot of women ask me, how do I [00:58:00] stop doing that? How do I stop caring about like if he's on the phone in the bathroom, or if he's like at work or if he has to work later or whatever. Like, how do I stop freaking out about it?

And one, I tell them, what are you making it mean about yourself? So are you afraid of a relapse because it's gonna mean X, Y, z about you or about him?

KYLE: Mm-hmm.

SAVANNAH: Because usually that's not the case. Um, number two, I wish that there was like a magic pill that I could give you and say like, you will never be paranoid again if you take this pill.

But for me, and I struggled with this for a long time too, and I was always in my head, I'm like, can I trust him? Like, I don't really know, like, you know, I found that time, honesty and consistency are necessary to build trust again. But even then I'm like, I don't know. Like, am I just paranoid? Am I crazy? I just, I found that when I did that deep digging with God and he pulled all the stuff out of my heart that had been there for so long, all the insecurity and comparison and whatever, that was when I really stopped [00:59:00] caring, not caring if he struggled, but like feeling the anxiety about it.

Because suddenly if he had a relapse, I was like, okay, I know that my worth does not change. I know that I'm gonna be okay and I know that we can work through this. I trust God, like I know that God's got this and that. We've seen him lead us through this before and he'll do it again. But there was a time on the deployment last year where my husband was acting weird and I was like, we gotta check in like what's going on?

And like, honey, have you been struggling with pornography while you've been gone? And he was like, yes, I've struggled this many times and I haven't told you and I felt like crap about it and whatever. And like my heart, I was like. I, I'm not hurting. Like I was so shocked to feel like this immense gratitude that he had been honest with me.

And my first thought was like, ah, there the wall's down. Yay. Like the honesty's back, like we can connect again. Like whatever that weird thing was that was there for how many weeks is gone. And [01:00:00] that was like my genuine, honest, immediate reaction was like, oh, thank you for telling me. Like, I'm so glad that you don't have to carry that by yourself anymore.

And that like, I can, we can have the clarity and the honesty and it shocked me 'cause like that had never happened before where I truly didn't feel anger. I truly didn't feel like it meant anything about me. I didn't feel like I needed to apologize for like, I'm sorry. Like I must not have done this enough for you, or I must not have whatever.

Like this is my fault. It was totally like, I'm so sorry you've been struggling with that for so long and that you were carrying it by yourself. Damn it. I wish you didn't do that, but like let's work through it. You know? And it was so like, it was one of the most connecting phone calls we've ever had.

He's in Japan, I'm in, and he like. I'm like, I wish that we could just like make out right now because I just felt so much connection with him for being honest with me. And that wasn't a result of anything that he did to heal. It was a result of what I did to heal with God.

KYLE: Yes. Yeah. And I would say so much of what you [01:01:00] said as being my own experience on the, um, being healed from the, the sexual addiction side, um, in doing my own work, that's what really removed the temptations or the drive and all those different things, but it was my own work.

It wasn't necessarily another tool or another blocker or another, you know, uh, thing because that's not actually. Dealing with the issue. Right. And I think so much of also, um, the, the help that's out there for these issues is actually just focused on that. That if, oh, if you got a, if you got a filter on your phone and you did this and that, then all of a sudden, you know, it would be fixed.

But that's not, actually, not the fixing at all. It, it's much, much deeper than that. So, absolutely. I think it's really, really, really cool that you shared that. But I also wanna ask, so he's 4, 5, 6 years into this healing process, and he's, uh, called you, uh, and he says, oh, I looked at porn again. And, and I think a lot of people would say like, four years in, like, how, why are you still sticking around?

Like, like I, I'm not, never, if ever does this again, I'm out. [01:02:00] Mm-hmm. You know, like if, if my husband ever relapses again and I I'm leaving the marriage, uh, um, I'm sure you get those responses as well. Like, what would you say to that?

SAVANNAH: Um, I've never had a zero tolerance policy. I have had a, you'd better take this to God policy.

Because, um, like I said, when we got married, I was never promised that he would never struggle with them. And to this day, like he hasn't struggled since the deployment. So it's been probably almost another year. But, um, he might someday. And I, I'm not saying that I would be okay with that. Like in no way am I tolerating behavior that doesn't belong in my marriage.

But two things can be true at the same time where I can say my husband had a relapse with pornography and I can hold space for it as he's healing. Yeah. And I believe that that's like, I hesitate to say like, that's just what marriage is. 'cause I realize that that's not the case for every [01:03:00] marriage where like he is actively trying and where he is, like making strides and where he is turning to God.

And I think that that's a different scenario. But for me, in my marriage, like I covenanted with God through the good and the ugly, and through the beautiful and the good and all the, you know what I mean? Like I, I'm his support and that includes getting my own needs met. It includes not tolerating behavior that is betraying me in our marriage, but I don't believe that forgiveness and holding space and allowing Jesus to have grace for him is the same thing as, um, tolerating.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think, so for some reason porn gets elevated above everything else. When I think John Piper said recently, I'm more scared of anger than I am scared of lust. And if our wives deal with it, an anger issue, um, you know, and that's something the guy has to deal with. That's, you know, he needs [01:04:00] to learn how to make space for that and realize that she's not gonna be perfect in, you know, never feeling, losing, losing her shit anymore.

Yes. Uh, um, or whatever it is. And I, and I think sometimes we, you know, for some reason, um, I think just because of the, maybe the hurt surrounding it or the, or the, the shame in the church around it, that it, it, for some reason gets put in a spot that it's, you know, this is the one that can't, um, be dealt with.

SAVANNAH: Yeah.

KYLE: Um. The shame, uh, piece feels ma massive, especially in the church context. How, how does a woman even begin to talk about this when the people who are supposed to be her community might judge her or him? Like any, um, like it's, it's interesting how many people reach out to you on your, uh, Instagram page about this because they have no one to go to.

A lot of people can't even afford necessarily therapy. Yeah. Uh, any any thoughts on that?

SAVANNAH: Um, can you reword the question

KYLE: that the shame and, and, and women not, and, and guys, but not knowing like who to go talk to or where [01:05:00] to even start? Yeah. Um,

SAVANNAH: like are you saying like, what do I tell women who are not anywhere to go?

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah.

SAVANNAH: Because not shame. Um, yes, shame thrives in secrecy, but we also wanna respect our husband's boundaries. So it's kind of a tricky line. Um, I, I tell women, your husband needs support in healing from this. You need support in healing from this as well. And if the husband is in a place of shame where he doesn't feel comfortable with her going to someone else, I have a really hard time with that because a husband saying, I'm gonna cause this pain for you.

And also I realize you have no tools and I'm not even gonna let you get them because I'm too worried about my ego. I really struggle with that. Um, that's when I encourage women to set boundaries. And a boundary is just basically saying, this is what I need and this is how I'm gonna get that need. Um, so if [01:06:00] I need to talk to somebody openly about this, let's say like my husband's not willing and he shuts down every time I try to bring it up with him, then I say, okay, in order for me to get my need met, I'm going to talk to my best friend about this.

Or I'm going to go to therapy, or I'm going to tell my mom. And I always encourage deep prayer when it comes to deciding who to open up to about this. Um, I have women message me a lot because they know I understand and that I'm not gonna judge them or their husbands. Um, I'm not the only one who understands if nine outta 10 men are struggling with this, a lot of women are actually gonna understand.

And I truly believe that there's someone in everyone's life who can be a helpful support to them that God will help them find. Um, yeah, I, it's just, I never wanna be like, please go against your husband's back and go gossip about his stuff behind his back when he's not okay with it. That's not like what I'm saying or encouraging.

But I do encourage a conversation with the husband saying, this is something I need and this is how I'm gonna get that need met. Yeah. I also, um, [01:07:00] I've considered starting a support group for women where we can kind of like have a, an emotionally safe place where we're also not just bashing our husbands.

I feel like sometimes support groups turn into that. So, um,

KYLE: yeah,

SAVANNAH: for that, I'm, I hopeful fully will start that in the next couple months for anybody who's interested and wants to kind of follow along the line.

KYLE: Yeah, I think just summarize this, this whole journey is long, hard, and messy and to go to God first, um, in it.

And that's essentially what he's after is our hearts and that he is enough for us. Um, but it, it's, it's a hard thing to learn, uh, and it's long, hard, and messy and we just, we want it to be gone tomorrow.

SAVANNAH: Well, and people, we interact with mortal people and often we put their characteristics on God thinking like, well, God's just gonna tell me to hurry up and get over it.

Or God's just gonna tell me that, like, I'm not supposed to feel this way 'cause that's a sin, or God's just gonna tell me whatever that I need to fix it and do this and this and this and this. And what I've learned, and I used to believe that stuff. I used to think God was [01:08:00] gonna be disappointed in me for some reason with all this pain that I was feeling, that he was gonna be like, yeah, you don't have enough faith.

And once I actually got tight with God and started like listening to what his voice really sounded like, I was like, oh no. That was how people were talking to me. That's not how God talks to me. Yeah. God talks to me as like his daughter, who he was and wants infinite goodness for, and he'll turn all this into my good, not by snapping his fingers and saying, you're healed not by saying, hurry up and get more faith, but by saying like, I am right here and I can hold all of this with you, and when you're ready, I'll give you just that next step and we'll do it together.

Jesus has been there. Jesus somehow magically knows what it's like to have a husband who struggles with porn like he's already off that road and he's the one who holds our hands and says, I'll go with you. Just let me leave. And that that's truly the answer.

KYLE: Yeah. Which is actually so common in the Bible too.

Like even when Abraham [01:09:00] left, uh, the, the pro his, his, the Landry was, um, needed to go to the Promised Land, go. I didn't tell him where he was going. He just said, go, uh, you know, and, and Isaac going to the altar, like just, you know, just, I'm not gonna give you the answers now, but we want, we have this need, uh, usually from our own brokenness in, in, in our past that, that's causing us to want that so badly.

So thank you so much for everything you shared today. I think it's really cool what you're doing and, and I'm, I'm thankful for it. I know there's a lot of, um, um, help out there. Um, any closing thoughts? Anything you'd like to share with, uh, the listeners on your contact information or just, uh, just on this topic in general?

SAVANNAH: Sure. Um, just my closing thoughts, I'll just kind of echo what I said about God being the answer. Sometimes women reach out to me who don't believe in God, and I truly, I don't know how to help them because I believe that healing comes from God, period. And. That he'll, like I said, he'll give you that next puzzle piece.

So, to anyone struggling who's listening to this, anyone looking for like the next [01:10:00] step, um, I wanna help you as much as I can, and I feel like I've learned a lot of tools and a lot of truths that are helpful in healing. But ultimately my end goal is to always point people back to God because he's fast source.

Um, as far as contact information, um, and other resources, I kind of, I think I did things a little backwards and I started growing a platform before I really had like, like, uh, concrete resources to offer. So when I'm to kind of create those, now that I have the following, um, like I said, my husband and I are gonna start a podcast.

I think it's just gonna be called Garden and Grove unless we change our mind. But, um, I'm writing this book that I don't have a title for yet, but that I'm gonna, I'll also be talking about that on social media. Um, I'd like to start a support group. I'd like to start. A workbook for women to like, dig really deep into those insecurities and figure out how to take into God and all kinds of things that just aren't done yet.

So feel free to follow along on Instagram. It's at [01:11:00] Garden dot and dot Grove. I also do have an email address. It's just Contact Garden and grove@gmail.com. Um, but in the meantime, until I've got more things set up for you, I, I, like I said, I take time every week to respond to messages. And so if you're just feeling stuck and you're like, I just don't know what that next piece might be, feel free to reach out and I'm happy to give you some options and some resources and the therapy office that I love and they'll give you a free session if I use my name and there's like all kinds of women's retreats.

I'm hosting a retreat in Italy in May that like, we still have a couple sports that are just like, it's really cool what God's doing just to help, uh, provide this space for healing. But um, yeah, I do, I truly wanna help people as much as I can.

KYLE: Awesome. Thank you very much guys. If you've enjoyed this episode, uh, please share it with someone.

Uh, a lot of people are are in this spot, so please do, uh, uh, share it with a friend, um, or leave a comment, uh, and uh, like the episode that's, uh, super [01:12:00] appreciated. But otherwise, I will catch you guys on the next one. Thank you. Thank you, Savannah. That was, that was really cool. Uh, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I was blessed to hear, uh, all, all the work that you've done, uh, and uh, and just, yeah, uh, when I seen the content online, I was like, oh, this is, this is a real shit.

Like this is, uh, this is actually helpful. So

SAVANNAH: Cool. Thank you. So it feels good to you be able to talk about it in a way that's like I, I'm looking back and seeing what God has done, like

KYLE: Yeah.

SAVANNAH: Yeah. It's amazing. And I'm sure you can understand that too, just in your own.

KYLE: Yes.

SAVANNAH: Thank you for inviting me and for giving me this platform to speak about it.

I appreciate it.

KYLE: No worries. I will, um, it'll probably take me about two weeks before I publish it, maybe, maybe three. But either way, I'll send you a copy, um, before it goes up and, uh, if you want any changes,

SAVANNAH: I was like, oh, I wish I didn't say that. So don't worry about anything out on my end if you wanted to cut out that phone call or whatever.

But I don't have any. Okay.

KYLE: Okay. Sounds good. Cool. [01:13:00] Uh, awesome. Thank you very much. All.

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