I Thought I Was Hearing God. Now I Think It Was Demonic | Jeremy Ryan - EP 58

September 12, 2026

[00:00:00] JEREMY: Big beards with the cigars [00:00:10]

[00:00:10] KYLE: Okay

[00:00:10] JEREMY: Just like a Doug Wilson

[00:00:12] KYLE: I can't grow shit

[00:00:13] JEREMY: I can't either. I can't even grow your mustache. I, uh- No, that's really good [00:00:20] Oh. Well, I didn't prepare anything, so you're just gonna have to ask me questions and-

[00:00:26] Well, I did prepare the infant baptism argument, but Okay.[00:00:30]

[00:00:32] Can you say it? No, I have all the verses in my brain.

[00:00:34] KYLE: Scan all Kyle's interviews of everything he said about baptism-

[00:00:37] JEREMY: Exactly ... and use the most common- And rip it apart, yeah. [00:00:40]

[00:00:42] KYLE: That, that would be, uh, a lot of fun.

[00:00:44] JEREMY: That's funny. That's funny.

[00:00:45] KYLE: Okay, I will pray, then we'll get into it.

[00:00:47] JEREMY: Okay. We're all good. Let's just go for it.

[00:00:49] KYLE: Yeah, I always- Yeah ... I [00:00:50] always pray first. So-

[00:00:51] JEREMY: Nice ...

[00:00:51] KYLE: ask for a blessing.

[00:00:52] JEREMY: Perfect.

[00:00:52] KYLE: Lord Jesus, thank you for today. Um, thank you that you love us. Uh, and, uh, thank you that Jeremy [00:01:00] and I get to have a chance to record here and have a chat and, uh, ultimately talk about, uh, what you've done. Um, and so I ask that you would just help us be ourselves and just e- enjoy our [00:01:10] conversation here, and that it would be a blessing to anyone that, uh, listens down the road.

[00:01:13] I- in your name I pray,

[00:01:16] JEREMY: amen. Amen.[00:01:20]

[00:01:21] KYLE: Welcome back everyone, to another episode of the Furious Licario Show. I'm here with Jeremy Ryan. What's up?

[00:01:29] JEREMY: Oh, nothing [00:01:30] much. Just, uh, here, got invited, and I'm excited to share with everyone a little bit about my story and, you know, get grilled.

[00:01:38] KYLE: Get grilled.

[00:01:38] JEREMY: Get

[00:01:39] KYLE: grilled. Get grilled. You said [00:01:40] you were not prepared.

[00:01:41] JEREMY: I am prepared a little bit. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what you're gonna ask me, though. Yeah. Fair enough.

[00:01:46] KYLE: Uh, are my cameras rolling?

[00:01:48] JEREMY: Oh, I don't know.

[00:01:49] KYLE: Yeah, I think they are, yeah. [00:01:50]

[00:01:50] JEREMY: Oh, cut.

[00:01:50] KYLE: If

[00:01:50] JEREMY: not...

[00:01:51] KYLE: No, we're good. We're good.

[00:01:52] JEREMY: Okay. Um,

[00:01:54] KYLE: yeah, so I, uh, I met you through BNI- Yes ... ironically enough.

[00:01:57] JEREMY: I know. Not through church.

[00:01:59] KYLE: Uh, no, [00:02:00] uh, which we've both dropped. Um, I think you did after seven months. I did after three.

[00:02:05] JEREMY: Yeah, eight. I had to have eight. Eight? Yeah.

[00:02:07] KYLE: Okay.

[00:02:07] JEREMY: Eight months, yeah.

[00:02:08] KYLE: Uh, but I met you through there, which [00:02:10] is a group of, uh, different business owners that get together and-

[00:02:13] JEREMY: Mm-hmm ...

[00:02:13] KYLE: meet, I guess network.

[00:02:15] JEREMY: Yep.

[00:02:15] KYLE: Um, and uh, s- and then I found out that you went to the [00:02:20] FRC Reformed Church.

[00:02:21] We're good buddies with my buddy Steph.

[00:02:23] JEREMY: Yep.

[00:02:23] KYLE: Or I did some stuff together. And uh, and I got to know a little bit about your story- Mm-hmm ... which was, I said, [00:02:30] "You are every Dutch Reformed pastor's dream."

[00:02:33] JEREMY: Uh,

[00:02:34] KYLE: because you ended up, um, all the way to the Paedo-Baptist, uh, conviction.

[00:02:38] JEREMY: Yeah.

[00:02:39] KYLE: Um, [00:02:40] but there's, that's only a small part, sp- part of the whole thing.

[00:02:43] JEREMY: Well, that made me switch churches.

[00:02:45] KYLE: Fair enough.

[00:02:45] JEREMY: Ju- just that, that doctrinal stuff.

[00:02:48] KYLE: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll get to that, [00:02:50] but-

[00:02:50] JEREMY: Yeah ...

[00:02:50] KYLE: maybe like, um, yeah, just share your story. Just start at the beginning.

[00:02:53] JEREMY: Sure. Well, I grew up, so I was homeschooled till grade four, [00:03:00] and then I went into public school grade five 'cause my parents were like, "We just can't handle these kids anymore."

[00:03:05] KYLE: Yep.

[00:03:06] JEREMY: I am a, the youngest of three, so I'm the third [00:03:10] youngest, and uh, we grew up and we were-

[00:03:14] KYLE: Did you just say the youngest of three? That means you're the third youngest?

[00:03:16] JEREMY: No, I am the youngest- Oh, okay ... of the three. Yeah.

[00:03:19] KYLE: Okay. [00:03:20]

[00:03:20] JEREMY: I might've said that weird. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? It's all right. Um, yeah. No, I'm the youngest, and I have a brother and a sister who are older than me.

[00:03:28] Um, we all grew [00:03:30] up in Sardis Fellowship Baptist Church.

[00:03:32] KYLE: Okay.

[00:03:33] JEREMY: And so I went there essentially my whole life.

[00:03:36] KYLE: Who was the pastor there?

[00:03:37] JEREMY: Uh, it was Rod [00:03:40] Heppel at one point. Okay. Um, very blurry. Long time ago. Uh, I know-

[00:03:46] KYLE: What, what would their theology have been? What would a church have been like growing up there?

[00:03:49] JEREMY: [00:03:50] So Baptist, chairs not pews. Okay. Yeah. Um, we would sing contemporary worship songs.

[00:03:58] KYLE: Okay.

[00:03:59] JEREMY: Uh, [00:04:00] contemporary for the time. Okay. It was probably like early 2000s, so.

[00:04:04] KYLE: And theologically, besides being Baptist, would they have been Arminian, Calvinistic?

[00:04:09] JEREMY: Oh, they [00:04:10] would've probably been, uh, Arminian. Okay. Yeah, I would've been like, um, uh- Anabaptist Okay Anabaptist, like, [00:04:20] um, uh, the Old Testament isn't as important as the New Testament.

[00:04:24] KYLE: Yeah

[00:04:24] JEREMY: You know? Um

[00:04:26] KYLE: Okay. Anyway, so that's how you grew up?

[00:04:29] JEREMY: [00:04:30] Yeah. And that's how I grew up And, and your par- parents are Christians, like- Yeah. Yeah Okay My parents

[00:04:31] KYLE: are Christians, yeah. Okay

[00:04:32] JEREMY: Yeah,

[00:04:32] KYLE: yeah And so you grew up in a Christian home, and that's what you were taught?

[00:04:35] JEREMY: Yeah. That's how I was taught, and then I was baptized.

[00:04:37] Um, we left Cyrus [00:04:40] Fellowship Baptist Church, uh, because we had a run-in with the families. Okay Uh, and we decided to leave because the pastor sided on their side, so we left, and then we church hopped. Like, I church [00:04:50] hopped from when I was, you know, um, 10. 10 till I was 16, and then I moved out of my house. I started smoking marijuana at [00:05:00] 14.

[00:05:00] KYLE: Yeah

[00:05:00] JEREMY: And then that was two years at my parents' house, and, you know, I was just... I started smoking at that point as well.

[00:05:06] KYLE: Yeah

[00:05:06] JEREMY: Moved out when I was 16, 'cause my parents, you know, [00:05:10] um, uh, were like, "Hey, you stop doing mari- stop smoking weed," or- Yeah ... you know, leave essentially. And I was like, "Okay, well, then I'm leaving."

[00:05:19] And so I [00:05:20] moved in with my uncle. He let, he let us do whatever the hell we wanted.

[00:05:23] KYLE: Whoa

[00:05:24] JEREMY: And, uh, and so yeah, so I moved out when I was 16, and, uh [00:05:30] Uh, doing- Still

[00:05:31] KYLE: in high school?

[00:05:32] JEREMY: Doing

[00:05:32] KYLE: drugs Still went to school?

[00:05:33] JEREMY: So, okay, so yeah, grade, so the middle of grade 10. So I moved out when I was probably in grade nine.[00:05:40]

[00:05:40] Okay. Like, yeah, beginning of grade nine. And then m- Had

[00:05:42] KYLE: much communication with your parents after that, like, or, or-

[00:05:44] JEREMY: Yeah, they were always so supportive. Like, they were always there for me if I needed them. [00:05:50] Like, uh-

[00:05:50] KYLE: They just said, "Hey, if you're gonna- ... monetarily" ... if you're gonna do this, you just can't live here."

[00:05:54] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that happens a lot of

[00:05:58] KYLE: the- But you'd come over for dinner and everything else, [00:06:00] and-

[00:06:00] JEREMY: No, I'd, I, like, I mean, it's, it's kind of a blur. Okay. I did so many drugs during that time- Okay ... that kind of like that whole section is a little bit of a blur [00:06:10] to me. Um, but yeah, essentially, like

[00:06:16] KYLE: speaking to- It's not like it was a bad relationship though.

[00:06:16] It was a good relationship s- or at least you were speak on speaking terms.

[00:06:19] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:20] Yeah. Yeah. My brother on, it was a different story. Okay. Yeah, that's a bit of a different story. Uh, I was more cordial-

[00:06:26] KYLE: Okay ...

[00:06:27] JEREMY: than, uh, than my brother and my sister. [00:06:30] Um, yeah.

[00:06:30] KYLE: And your parents were okay with your uncle, l- you living at your uncle's?

[00:06:33] Or like they were, I mean-

[00:06:36] JEREMY: Yeah. They were- ... it was- They were fine with that. It is what it is, right? And [00:06:40] I, you know, needed a place to stay, and he let me come crash at his- Yeah ... his house. Um, it was very much like a, like, my uncle [00:06:50] is single, and he's in his 50s, right? He smokes and he does drugs and, uh... Well, no, he doesn't do drugs.

[00:06:57] He just smokes, smokes cigarettes. Um, [00:07:00] and, uh, essentially he would let us smoke weed and do, do whatever we wanted essentially. Do, do whatever. Fair enough. Yeah. And then we would pay him rent. Okay. So, yeah, so he would rent us a, a room. Okay. [00:07:10] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't a free ride. Okay. Yeah. And then I picked up a job when I was, um, when I was 16, and I worked at Sardis Bakery.

[00:07:19] KYLE: [00:07:20] Okay.

[00:07:20] JEREMY: Just down, shout out to Sardis Bakery. I don't know if they're still- Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:22] KYLE: For Dem, Dembovsky?

[00:07:23] JEREMY: What?

[00:07:24] KYLE: Would it have been the Dembovsky you worked for? Sardis Bakery.

[00:07:26] JEREMY: Oh, geez. Yeah. So long. Um, what was her [00:07:30] name? Okay I can't remember the name. It's all good. Yeah, it's all good. Um, anyways, I started there as a janitor.

[00:07:38] I was, uh, cleaning [00:07:40] out stuff. I almost got fired from there 'cause I was sucked. Yeah. I was, had such a terrible work ethic, and, uh, and I almost got fired, and then I basically cried over the phone, and then her son talked to her and was like, "You [00:07:50] shouldn't fire him. He, you know, he has some potential." And then they didn't fire me, and then gave me a second shot, which I pulled up my socks after that.

[00:07:57] Nice. Yeah, so. Yeah, and then I moved to Edmonton [00:08:00] when I was six- 17.

[00:08:03] KYLE: Okay,

[00:08:03] JEREMY: grade 10. 17. Yeah, grade 10. Like, middle of grade 10 I dropped out, so I didn't graduate-

[00:08:08] KYLE: Okay ...

[00:08:09] JEREMY: uh, because I was [00:08:10] partying and just hanging out with friends. Yeah. And then both my brother and my sister had been, um, in, uh, had moved to Edmonton.

[00:08:18] KYLE: Okay.

[00:08:18] JEREMY: And so that Christmas- So they,

[00:08:19] KYLE: they, uh, [00:08:20] moved out as well?

[00:08:21] JEREMY: Yeah. So my brother moved out when he was thir- like, he started working full-time when he was

[00:08:26] KYLE: 13. Oh, wow.

[00:08:26] JEREMY: Uh, yeah. My sister, same, same [00:08:30] type of thing. Wow. Like, very young. They both rebelled, and then I followed along six months-

[00:08:33] KYLE: Why do you, why do you think the rebellion happened?

[00:08:35] Like-

[00:08:36] JEREMY: There is a, there's a lot, looking back on it. [00:08:40] Um- Maybe you don't,

[00:08:42] KYLE: maybe you don't want to share that

[00:08:43] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah. Maybe I don't want to share that. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I have, I have theories, right? Okay. But honestly, it's the sinfulness of man [00:08:50] that did it, right? Fair enough. So sinful heart wanting to rebel- Yeah

[00:08:53] wanting to do what we wanted and, um, yeah, my parents were troopers through it. Like, they were always there for [00:09:00] me. I remember one time I was in Edmonton and my insurance had expired, and I had to pay $500 to get my insurance done, and I was living in Edmonton, [00:09:10] you know, barely talking to my parents. Well, I called my parents up and I was like, "I need f- $500.

[00:09:14] Like, I won't have a car, I can't get to work." They e-transferred me [00:09:20] $500 right, right there and then, and I paid for my insurance. Like, that's the, that's the type of, uh, uh, people my parents are.

[00:09:27] KYLE: Fair enough.

[00:09:28] JEREMY: Yeah. All right. And they've always been like [00:09:30] that- Right ... super giving. Still are. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I look at them, I'm like, "Oh, geez, why are you guys doing this?"

[00:09:35] But it's just like they're so open-handed. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. That's awesome. Almost to their detriment sometimes, [00:09:40]

[00:09:40] KYLE: so.

[00:09:40] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:41] KYLE: Um, okay, so you moved to Edmonton, uh- Yeah ... and because your siblings are there. Yeah. You drop out of school.

[00:09:47] JEREMY: I dropped out of school, moved to Edmonton. [00:09:50] Uh, you know, partying, got a job at Red Robins, started doing cocaine, uh, ketamine.

[00:09:56] KYLE: What was your first cocaine experience like?

[00:09:58] JEREMY: Uh, first cocaine [00:10:00] experience was we were just playing poker.

[00:10:02] KYLE: Okay.

[00:10:02] JEREMY: And we, you know, we would, uh, play poker on Friday nights. It was tip night, so we would get tips one Friday, a paycheck the next [00:10:10] Friday, right? Restaurant life. Yeah. And then we would go and play poker all night, basically, uh, till, like, 4:00 a.m.

[00:10:18] And my brother usually [00:10:20] always won, so then we would go to McDonald's, and I would get, like, four sausage egg McMuffins and 10 hash browns. I used to be, you know, 280 pounds, like, [00:10:30] pretty big, pretty big guy. Um, and then, uh- Yeah, essentially that was, I mean, cocaine is- You,

[00:10:37] KYLE: you remember your first cocaine experience?

[00:10:38] Like you said you were playing poker and like- [00:10:40] Yeah,

[00:10:40] JEREMY: we were playing

[00:10:40] KYLE: poker ... what, what, you remember the, that first high was like?

[00:10:42] JEREMY: No, no, because it was so dumbed down because I was doing shrooms, acid- Oh, there you go. Okay ... I was doing ketamine, I was [00:10:50] doing, um, yeah, so cocaine was just kinda like, yeah, just an upper.

[00:10:55] Yeah. And, and I kinda knew the technical jargon for the drugs, like what they do [00:11:00] and like- Okay ... how they act, and I'm like, "Well, cocaine's just like a extra strong coffee," essentially. Right. Right?

[00:11:06] KYLE: Okay.

[00:11:07] JEREMY: Um, and so it wasn't like this w- A little [00:11:10] more

[00:11:10] KYLE: than that, but

[00:11:10] JEREMY: yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little more than that, but essentially- Yes

[00:11:12] it's an upper, right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, if you drink enough Red Bull- Yeah ... you could get the effects of cocaine.

[00:11:18] KYLE: And, and why do you think you were, uh, [00:11:20] chasing the drugs like that? W- was there, do you think you were running from something, or you just wanted to explore and enjoy all that, just the adventure of things?

[00:11:26] Or do you remember-

[00:11:27] JEREMY: Oh, it was, um, I wanted to be accepted. So [00:11:30] I started- Mm-hmm ... I was bullied hard in school.

[00:11:32] KYLE: Okay.

[00:11:33] JEREMY: Uh, grade five and six, I failed grade six.

[00:11:36] KYLE: What, how were you bullied? Uh, yeah. Like what a bully, like-

[00:11:38] JEREMY: So fat, Twinkie [00:11:40] man. Okay. Yeah, Twinkie boy. Uh, basically made fun of because I was very soft.

[00:11:45] Yeah. I would, you know, I could tear up at anything r- essentially. Okay. Uh, so I'd get made fun of [00:11:50] for that. Yeah. Being soft, and then also being overweight and not being athletic, and then kids would tease me and run away. And so, and then grade seven and [00:12:00] eight-

[00:12:00] KYLE: And did you have, and do you remember those years, like having any support from, um, family when that happened?

[00:12:04] Or like how did you process that? Did, as a, as a little kid, do you have recollection of that?

[00:12:09] JEREMY: [00:12:10] Uh, how I proc- processed it as a little kid, I kinda just buried it. Mm. Like just buried it. I didn't, you know, tell anyone that I was being bullied or anything. [00:12:20] Um, and in grade seven and eight is where it changed.

[00:12:24] I became the bully. Okay. So I started bullying kids, and I started smoking. And, you [00:12:30] know, this is probably where the, you know, drugs came in and, and all

[00:12:32] KYLE: of this. And so it was a little bit of to, uh, compensate for the other side. You're like, "You can't beat them- Yeah ... join them."

[00:12:38] JEREMY: Yeah, to be accepted- Yeah

[00:12:39] [00:12:40] essentially, right? It was all about being cool.

[00:12:42] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:12:42] JEREMY: Right? And so, um, yeah, I became the bully. And it's funny because, uh, someone on Facebook who I went to [00:12:50] school with, I, you know, I don't know what I was doing on Facebook, but she messaged me or I messaged her or something, and she was like, "Oh, Jeremy, you used to be like the cool kid," right?

[00:12:59] Yeah. [00:13:00] And that's how she remembered me, and I just remember myself being a bully- Yeah ... or a like trail bear, you know? Yeah,

[00:13:06] KYLE: yeah.

[00:13:06] JEREMY: And, uh, just a terrible person. And, uh, she was like, "Oh, [00:13:10] you're the cool kid." And then I told her I dropped out, and she didn't think that was cool at all. And she, we didn't talk again after that.

[00:13:15] Yeah. But, uh, um, yeah, so. Yeah, [00:13:20] essentially I became the bully- Yeah ... because I wanted to be cool. Yeah. And so the whole thing, moving to Edmonton, rebelling, right? I just wanted to be accepted- Yeah ... and, uh, and [00:13:30] not be bullied- Yeah ... essentially, and be cool, right?

[00:13:32] KYLE: Okay, so doing lots of drugs, working at- Yeah

[00:13:34] restaurant, like-

[00:13:35] JEREMY: Red- Red Robins.

[00:13:36] KYLE: Red Robins. Yeah. Okay. Red

[00:13:36] JEREMY: Robins. Yeah.

[00:13:37] KYLE: And how old are you at this point? You're, like- I'm- ... 18,

[00:13:39] JEREMY: 19? Yeah, [00:13:40] I'm, like, 18.

[00:13:40] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:13:41] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18, and then-

[00:13:43] KYLE: A- any thoughts about God at this point?

[00:13:45] JEREMY: Oh, yeah. I would profess I'm a Christian the whole time.

[00:13:49] KYLE: Oh, okay. Why? [00:13:50]

[00:13:50] JEREMY: The whole time- Wow ... I would profess I'm a Christian.

[00:13:52] Like-

[00:13:52] KYLE: Why'd you think you're a Christian?

[00:13:53] JEREMY: All the way up. Because I love Jesus, and I had, basically I had an experience [00:14:00] when I was younger. Um, my family believed in the signs and all that, right? I believe in miracles today, but, uh, in a different way. Basically, [00:14:10] I prayed. There was no snow in the forecast. I was probably, like, oh, I forgot.

[00:14:14] I was probably, like, four at this point. Yeah. I prayed for snow that next day because, you know, [00:14:20] my parents were like, "Just pray for it," and, you know- Yeah ... it could happen. God could do it. There was no snow in the forecast. I prayed for snow. We woke up the next morning, it was snowing, and right [00:14:30] there was like holy crikeys, God, God is real.

[00:14:34] Mm-hmm. Like this, this is wei- like this is weird. Yeah. Right? Uh, and so [00:14:40] essentially from right there, I believed in God. And- Okay ... like that never really wavered. But

[00:14:46] KYLE: were you, uh, would you have said you were saved and were a [00:14:50] Christian?

[00:14:51] JEREMY: So I would say I was not a Christian, and that, you know, even the demons believe- Yes

[00:14:59] God [00:15:00] is real. Mm-hmm. Right? And, uh, they shudder. Yeah. Right? And so at that point, I believe I was a covenant, like from now from my point of view, is that I was a covenant [00:15:10] child of God.

[00:15:10] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:15:10] JEREMY: Right? And that, you know, his promise was extended to me as well, and I came out on the other side. Lot, lots of people don't, and we can get into [00:15:20] that.

[00:15:20] Yeah. And my view of that. Um, but essentially, uh, that was kind of the start of it, and then it just, you know, I call myself a Christian the [00:15:30] whole, whole way through all

[00:15:31] KYLE: my life. Okay, so you called yourself a Christian, but like when you were 18, were you thinking much about God? Like were you- No. Okay. So you-

[00:15:35] JEREMY: No, if someone asked, I would say I'm a Christian.

[00:15:37] Yeah.

[00:15:37] KYLE: Okay. Right?

[00:15:38] JEREMY: It's

[00:15:38] KYLE: like- But you weren't, like you weren't reading your Bible, you weren't praying, you [00:15:40] weren't like- No. You-

[00:15:41] JEREMY: No. Okay. God in heaven- I only prayed in my need. Okay. So there was one point where we were in Edmonton, and we were, [00:15:50] uh, getting evicted- Mm ... because we didn't pay rent, and that's usually what happens.

[00:15:55] But it was a scummy landlord anyways as well, uh, one of these big companies that [00:16:00] kinda, you know... Anyways, it's a story. Uh, essentially we're getting evicted, and I got down on tears and hands and knees, and I prayed to the Lord. I'm like, "We don't have [00:16:10] anywhere to go. Like, we need help." Mm. Well, that day we went to the, um, we went to the courthouse, and we met another [00:16:20] landlord there.

[00:16:21] And he knew the landlord we were dealing with, and he's like, "Oh, yeah, they're, they're scummy." And so he had a place for us to go [00:16:30] see. Yeah. And trusted our word and everything like that. Yeah. And so at that point, um, you know, we went and saw the place, but then we decided to move back to [00:16:40] Chilliwack.

[00:16:40] KYLE: Okay.

[00:16:41] Yeah. Yeah,

[00:16:41] JEREMY: yeah.

[00:16:41] KYLE: After- So g- I wanna go ask one question about the earlier thing. You said how'd, how did, um, you c- you would've called yourself a Christian. Yeah. How is it possible [00:16:50] that you... Like what were you taught or what were you not taught that made you believe you were a Christian when you weren't?

[00:16:58] JEREMY: Right. [00:17:00] Yes. So what was I taught and what- Or not, or not taught ... or, or not taught. Yeah. I... Not taught, if you love Jesus, you'll keep His commandments.

[00:17:07] KYLE: Okay.

[00:17:08] JEREMY: And I was not [00:17:10] keeping His commandments.

[00:17:10] KYLE: You were not, I mean, you were not taught that either?

[00:17:12] JEREMY: Well, I wasn't, I, it, it wasn't in my forefront of my brain. No, it wasn't taught in the c- in the Baptist Church, and then [00:17:20] after that, um-

[00:17:21] KYLE: So you would've assumed- Yeah

[00:17:22] you could just do whatever you want and be saved?

[00:17:24] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was a Christian. Yeah, I, I loved Jesus, but I didn't have to, I didn't have to live [00:17:30] for like, I didn't- Okay ... it, it, it, the, the-

[00:17:32] KYLE: But the d- this disconnect, though, must have been-

[00:17:34] JEREMY: The thought ...

[00:17:34] KYLE: either, like, not visible at, in, in your world of [00:17:40] Christian influence, whatever that was, the-

[00:17:42] JEREMY: Yeah, which I didn't have.

[00:17:43] KYLE: Well, the people at church right up until you were 14 or-

[00:17:46] JEREMY: Oh, okay. Yeah, up until I was 14 or whatever.

[00:17:48] KYLE: Yeah,

[00:17:48] JEREMY: yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:49] KYLE: Or, [00:17:50] or not taught somehow. Mm-hmm. Or how do you think you ended up in that spot? Like, it just, your parents wouldn't have said to you, "Hey, like, if you're-

[00:17:57] JEREMY: Mm-hmm ...

[00:17:58] KYLE: living this lifestyle, this means that you're, [00:18:00] you know, you know-"

[00:18:01] JEREMY: They never said you weren't saved, so they were never like, "Oh, you need to move out because you're doing drugs," right?

[00:18:07] It's like, uh, they never said, you [00:18:10] know, "If you do know what this means," right, "then you're not saved." Like, if, if you do these actions, right? That should be, that should've been blatantly put out to me. [00:18:20] Hmm. Like, you don't call yourself a Christian anymore. Like, if my kids grow up-

[00:18:23] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:18:24] JEREMY: I'm gonna be telling, like, "If you go down this road, you're not saved," like, just by your [00:18:30] actions, right?

[00:18:30] And so, uh, that was never really- Put forth to me- Mm ... as like blunt.

[00:18:38] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:18:38] JEREMY: Like super blunt. [00:18:40] Um, and you know, it's just how my family goes. Like lots of families have their different communication styles. Yeah. Mine's more passive, right? Yeah. We don't like, uh, uh, [00:18:50] confrontation- Okay ... a lot.

[00:18:52] KYLE: Um,

[00:18:52] JEREMY: and I still, I had to work through that with my wife and everything, so that's a story as well.

[00:18:56] Yeah. Um, uh,

[00:18:58] KYLE: so yeah. Okay. That kinda answer, answers the [00:19:00] question though, but like, yeah, you're swearing wasn't communicated

[00:19:02] JEREMY: initially. Yeah, it wasn't communicated bluntly like, "Hey, if you go down this route, you're not saved. Like you're not a Christian." Yeah. "Stop calling yourself a [00:19:10] Christian."

[00:19:10] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:19:10] JEREMY: Um, "Because you're not."

[00:19:11] KYLE: Yeah. "

[00:19:12] JEREMY: You're, you're basically spitting on Jesus."

[00:19:14] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:19:14] JEREMY: Right? Yeah.

[00:19:15] KYLE: Okay, so I missed, uh, how you ended up back, moving back here.

[00:19:18] JEREMY: Right.

[00:19:19] KYLE: So- Yeah, so

[00:19:19] JEREMY: that's

[00:19:19] KYLE: a story ... [00:19:20] you said you were living, you were living this lifestyle in Edmonton. Yeah. And it stopped all of a sudden or how,

[00:19:24] JEREMY: or like? No, so in 2012 we got in a big head-on collision car [00:19:30] accident.

[00:19:30] KYLE: Who's we?

[00:19:31] JEREMY: Uh, me and my brother.

[00:19:32] KYLE: Okay.

[00:19:32] JEREMY: He was driving. I was in the back, um, right-hand side of the passenger seat.

[00:19:37] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:19:37] JEREMY: And essentially we're driving home [00:19:40] after dropping a buddy off at the pub, and we're driving home in this car with four other people in them. He might have been distracted or whatever. We're going straight through and he turned left, like it was a [00:19:50] kind of a diagonal left.

[00:19:51] Yeah. And he just head-on collisioned us. We're both going 60. Um, and so that changed [00:20:00] my brother. So my brother shattered his front leg, uh, had to get pins and, and surgery. I pushed the seat, I broke my arm, and the seat [00:20:10] broke forward. I had my- You were sitting

[00:20:11] KYLE: in the back?

[00:20:11] JEREMY: I was sitting in the back because our buddy was sitting in the front.

[00:20:14] KYLE: Oh, there's four people in the car?

[00:20:15] JEREMY: There was, yeah, thr- there was two in our car, four in the other car.

[00:20:19] KYLE: [00:20:20] Oh.

[00:20:20] JEREMY: Yeah. Um,

[00:20:21] KYLE: so- Why were you sitting in the back if there was only two in your car?

[00:20:23] JEREMY: Because we had just dropped off a buddy- Oh, okay ... at the pub- Oh, okay ... and the buddy was in the front.

[00:20:27] KYLE: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:20:27] JEREMY: Yeah, the buddy.

[00:20:28] So he left and then I just [00:20:30] stayed in the back.

[00:20:30] KYLE: Oh,

[00:20:30] JEREMY: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Would

[00:20:31] KYLE: you have been in a worse spot if you would've been in the front?

[00:20:33] JEREMY: Probably.

[00:20:34] KYLE: Okay.

[00:20:34] JEREMY: Yeah, I would've probably shattered my... 'Cause there, it, the, the dash comes down, I would've went forward, probably [00:20:40] smashed my knee off the dash as well. Oh, yeah.

[00:20:41] Right? Uh, just like my brother did. He had long legs. Um, yeah, I probably would've been in a worse spot.

[00:20:47] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:20:47] JEREMY: Yeah.

[00:20:47] KYLE: So, okay, your brother shattered his leg and-

[00:20:49] JEREMY: [00:20:50] Yeah ...

[00:20:50] KYLE: what, what else?

[00:20:50] JEREMY: And then so he essentially, um, started having, um, like panic attacks, kinda like, uh, bipolar [00:21:00] symptoms. Uh, he has a different diagnosis now, but at that point they diagnosed him, he developed bipolar I disorder, rapid cycling.

[00:21:08] And so, you know, a little bit about his [00:21:10] story. He went to the mental hospital for months, um, and to get on meds and stuff, and I would go visit him. Well, in the mental hospital-

[00:21:19] KYLE: In Edmonton?

[00:21:19] JEREMY: In [00:21:20] Edmonton, yeah. In the mental hospital, a lesbian-

[00:21:22] KYLE: And how, how, how bad of shape would you have been in?

[00:21:25] JEREMY: Uh, so mentally I was great, I was fine But

[00:21:26] KYLE: like from the accident, like how, like- Yeah

[00:21:28] what'd you get?

[00:21:29] JEREMY: I broke my arm. [00:21:30]

[00:21:30] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:21:30] JEREMY: Broke my elbow, so I had to be in a sling, and then I got major bruising from the, uh, seatbelt.

[00:21:36] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:21:37] JEREMY: And then that's, that's about it. Oh,

[00:21:38] KYLE: wow.

[00:21:38] JEREMY: That's the extent of it.

[00:21:39] KYLE: [00:21:40] Okay.

[00:21:40] JEREMY: Yeah, so I was, uh, quite- And

[00:21:42] KYLE: the other

[00:21:42] JEREMY: people? ... quite blessed. The other people, one had to get rushed to the hospital, uh, but they all survived.

[00:21:47] Okay. Like, no one died. Okay, that's good. So thank the [00:21:50] Lord.

[00:21:50] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:21:51] JEREMY: Yeah. And, uh-

[00:21:52] KYLE: Okay, so you're visiting your brother in the hospital- Yeah ... in the mental hospital- Mm-hmm ... 'cause after this accident. How quickly did things, did he end up there?

[00:21:58] JEREMY: Uh, a month [00:22:00] or two.

[00:22:00] KYLE: Oh, wow, so fairly, really fast. Like,

[00:22:01] JEREMY: like, yeah, it happened pretty fast, yeah.

[00:22:03] And this is a very- To my recollection anyways,

[00:22:05] KYLE: yeah. And this was due to the accident?

[00:22:06] JEREMY: Well, that's what they said, that- Okay ... like, it brought on early [00:22:10] onset of his bipolar symptoms.

[00:22:12] KYLE: Okay.

[00:22:12] JEREMY: Uh, that was the diagnosis. Um, and so in the mental hospital, this is kinda like [00:22:20] the crux of the story of what kinda brought us back.

[00:22:23] Um, so my brother got asked by a lesbian. He would call himself a Christian the whole time too, and he was doing the [00:22:30] exact same stuff I was. Um, the, uh, lesbian asked him-

[00:22:35] KYLE: A nurse?

[00:22:35] JEREMY: No, like a patient.

[00:22:37] KYLE: Okay.

[00:22:37] JEREMY: Uh, a fellow patient. Yeah. Uh, female [00:22:40] fellow patient asked him, like, "You call yourself a Christian. Why is being lesbian wrong?"

[00:22:45] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:22:47] JEREMY: And my brother couldn't answer it. So [00:22:50] essentially he couldn't answer it, and that triggered something. He's like, "Well, I call myself this, and I can't answer this question." Uh, and so he goes, proceeds to [00:23:00] read the whole New Testament in a week, uh, radically gives his life to Christ And essentially, he claims he brought his [00:23:10] roommate to Christ as well, and he professed Christ as well.

[00:23:12] Um, and so, you know, he came out of the whack shack when he got released on fire for the Lord. Like- The

[00:23:19] KYLE: whack [00:23:20] shack.

[00:23:20] JEREMY: That's what we called it, the whack

[00:23:22] KYLE: shack. Yeah. I'm gonna call it that now. Yeah.

[00:23:24] JEREMY: I love it.

[00:23:24] KYLE: The whack

[00:23:25] JEREMY: shack. The whack shack, yeah. I still have a lot of slang from my old terms, [00:23:30] because we were a part of a gang in Edmonton too.

[00:23:32] Um- What

[00:23:33] KYLE: kind of gang?

[00:23:34] JEREMY: Uh, uh, just like, um, a rapping gang. So because my brother did hip hop-

[00:23:38] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:23:38] JEREMY: there was this gang, [00:23:40] um, you know, Cali Con, um, you know, we have no-

[00:23:43] KYLE: Like, no criminal activity kind of gang?

[00:23:45] JEREMY: Yeah, like drugs. Okay. I, I drove a guy up to deal heroin, [00:23:50] um, and drove him around to do deals. Okay, so

[00:23:52] KYLE: organized crime.

[00:23:53] JEREMY: Yeah, organized crime. Uh, I would, uh, sell marijuana as well.

[00:23:57] KYLE: And, and how do you know if you're part of the gang or not? [00:24:00] Like, just 'cause you're doing work within your part

[00:24:01] JEREMY: of it, or? You're just, you're just w- hanging out with them. They're coming over. Yeah. You know, we're homies. You know, like, uh-

[00:24:06] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:24:06] JEREMY: yeah.

[00:24:07] Um, that type of thing.

[00:24:09] KYLE: Okay.

[00:24:09] JEREMY: So [00:24:10] essentially-

[00:24:11] KYLE: What do you remember of that life? Like, do you, do you, um... What was interesting about it, being in those crowds? Or like, w- is there any sense of, uh, like fun or peace, or [00:24:20] is it like just really high anxiety? Like, what's, what do you remember from it?

[00:24:23] JEREMY: So I'm, I've always been just like pretty, like- Flat

[00:24:26] just go, right? Yeah. Okay. And like, no, I don't have [00:24:30] anxiety. I don't have depression. I'm just like pretty, I've been pretty flat my whole life. Pretty numb? Pretty, not numb- No ... just like not emotionally charged. Okay. Like, [00:24:40] I don't get super anxiety. I'm like, "Ah," right? Hmm. And it's like I'm always just pretty emotionally stable.

[00:24:46] Yeah. Right? And so through those times, it was more like [00:24:50] the acceptance. Hmm. Right? Back to the acceptance, right? Ah, interesting. This whole thing was I wanna be accepted, so I would, you know, sell marijuana and be the cool [00:25:00] guy. You know, we'd- Yeah ... buy pounds at a time. Be a part of something, yeah. Yeah, we're a part of something.

[00:25:04] Um, and yeah, it was ba- it, that's, in me it was for [00:25:10] acceptance. Hmm.

[00:25:10] KYLE: I think it's such an important thing for parents to realize for their own kids, to be like-

[00:25:13] JEREMY: Mm-hmm ...

[00:25:14] KYLE: do they be like, feel like they're a part of something?

[00:25:17] JEREMY: Right.

[00:25:17] KYLE: Or do they feel alone?

[00:25:18] JEREMY: Yeah.

[00:25:19] KYLE: [00:25:20] No, 100%. You know? Like, i- in their family- And if they're

[00:25:21] JEREMY: bullied too, right?

[00:25:22] So-

[00:25:22] KYLE: Yeah. Like it's, it's, uh...'cause they're gonna, that, that's what everyone's longing for. And they're gonna try to look for it somewhere.

[00:25:28] JEREMY: Yeah.

[00:25:28] KYLE: But-

[00:25:29] JEREMY: 100%, [00:25:30] yeah.

[00:25:30] KYLE: Okay. So your- Uh-huh ... your brother, uh, radically t- gives himself to Christ. Do you remember- Yeah ... visiting him the first time after, uh, in the wax shack i- in your ter-

[00:25:38] in your terms, um- [00:25:40] Yeah ... where he told you that he had this ex... Uh, like he's read the whole test- New Testament? You remember that?

[00:25:44] JEREMY: Yeah. So he came out actually when I went to go get him-

[00:25:48] KYLE: Oh,

[00:25:48] JEREMY: okay ... when he was released. [00:25:50] Um, he was like, "Jeremy, we need to, like, repent and go back home. Like, we need to go and warn everyone about the end times."

[00:25:58] KYLE: Oh,

[00:25:58] JEREMY: wow. Because it was like [00:26:00] the end times are coming, Satan's gonna come up into the temple and, and declare- Where did he have this conversation with you? ... Antichrist, um- Do you remember where you were? ... in the car on the drive back- Oh, okay ... essentially. [00:26:10] Yeah, on the drive to pick

[00:26:10] KYLE: him up. What, you, what, what were you thinking?

[00:26:12] JEREMY: I was thinking, "Yeah, I mean, let's do it." So because I would just follow my brother, right? Uh-huh. So I moved to Edmonton after my siblings did, [00:26:20] right? I wanted to be accepted, so I was just like, "Okay, well, let's do it. Let's move back."

[00:26:25] KYLE: And- But you didn't have any relationship with Christ at this point. You were just like, "This guy wants to do [00:26:30] Bible stuff, let's do Bible stuff"?

[00:26:31] JEREMY: No, I call myself a Christian.

[00:26:33] KYLE: Yeah, but- Right? So- But you weren't really into it. Like the gospel, you said you barely thought about it.

[00:26:37] JEREMY: Well, yeah, I wasn't really into it, but I [00:26:40] wouldn't deny it. Like- Okay, yeah ... so it was like, "Okay."

[00:26:43] KYLE: But to go from a whole drug lifestyle- Yeah ... that whole thing- Yeah ... and all of a sudden now move back, like there gotta, there's gotta be [00:26:50] like- Were, are we s- you just agreed right away?

[00:26:54] JEREMY: I just, I just agreed right away. We were getting evicted from our place.

[00:26:58] KYLE: That is such a huge U-turn. Like-

[00:26:59] JEREMY: [00:27:00] Yeah, it was. Yeah. It

[00:27:01] KYLE: w- But, and, and it wasn't necessarily an experience for you, or when did you feel the conviction that your brother had? When did that come?

[00:27:06] JEREMY: So that came years later.

[00:27:09] KYLE: Okay.

[00:27:09] JEREMY: [00:27:10] So years later.

[00:27:11] KYLE: Okay. I

[00:27:11] JEREMY: just-

[00:27:11] KYLE: So, so we'll get there then. Yeah. So you go back- Mm-hmm ... to Chilliwack, and you do that.

[00:27:14] JEREMY: Yeah, so there was a trailer waiting for us. So my mom and dad have a, had a big, [00:27:20] uh, 40-foot, you know- Yeah ... uh, trailer, and we went and it was ready for us. They had two beds ready for us when we were moving back.

[00:27:28] They were like, "Yeah, we just moved the beds [00:27:30] into the, into the condo on Broadway," and, uh, on Broadway Street in Chilliwack.

[00:27:35] KYLE: Yep.

[00:27:35] JEREMY: And so we landed on those beds- Road I, road I,

[00:27:37] KYLE: road I grew up on.

[00:27:38] JEREMY: Yeah. Oh, the road you grew up on. Yeah. Oh, yeah, [00:27:40] yeah. We were on Airport and Broadway, right in that, uh, te- Okay. Beacon Downs.

[00:27:44] Okay. Beacon Downs, yeah. And, uh, so there were two beds waiting for us as we drove [00:27:50] back that night. Like, we got out, we packed up our car, left everything else behind.

[00:27:55] KYLE: Wow.

[00:27:55] JEREMY: The k- the locks had been changed on- Your sister?

[00:27:57] KYLE: And your sister, where was she?

[00:27:59] JEREMY: My sister, [00:28:00] she was, um, we, she was in Edmonton.

[00:28:05] KYLE: Yeah,

[00:28:06] JEREMY: and so you're like, you just called her?

[00:28:06] We had moved away from her for a while.

[00:28:07] KYLE: Oh, okay.

[00:28:07] JEREMY: Like, we had moved away in Edmonton. Oh, [00:28:10] okay. Right? She has two kids, and she was doing her

[00:28:12] KYLE: own thing. Oh, their own thing. Okay. Yeah. She wasn't doing the whole, you know- No, she w- ... gang-gangster lifestyle. No,

[00:28:16] JEREMY: no, no, no. Okay. No. She, um, yeah, and there's a whole story involved.

[00:28:19] KYLE: Okay, so she would've [00:28:20] been happy to hear that you guys drove back to Chilliwack and your brother had this thing.

[00:28:24] JEREMY: Yeah. I'm not sure where my sister was at this point. Okay. Yeah, it was kinda just [00:28:30] like, "Let's go."

[00:28:31] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:28:31] JEREMY: And we just went, and it was like, "Okay, pack up the car as much as we can do. Drive the 12 hours back that night."

[00:28:38] So we drove through the [00:28:40] night home, uh, and two beds were waiting for us, travel trailer. Then we moved into the travel trailer at, um, uh, Popkum. Yeah. So there's an RV park there [00:28:50] Uh, we moved into that. And at this point, we essentially... So my brother was on fire for God. I, I [00:29:00] was just following at this point because, uh, and the way I know this is I was drinking heavily.

[00:29:05] Okay. So I would essentially sit down, drink, uh, two six of vodka, [00:29:10] um, and then drive to go get more- Okay. Okay ... essentially. So I have a, I have a big history of drunk driving as well. Okay. Um, and never got caught because [00:29:20] it was weird, but when I drank a lot, I would actually almost become a better driver because I was more careful.

[00:29:29] KYLE: Mm.

[00:29:29] JEREMY: [00:29:30] Like, I would drive more carefully. Don't drink and drive anyway. Yeah. But essentially- At least while

[00:29:34] KYLE: you remember, you remember

[00:29:34] JEREMY: driving well. Yeah. Well, I even had sober person in the car with me, and my brother- Yeah ... and he's like, "You're, [00:29:40] oh, almost better." Yeah, yeah. So for some reason, I have this ability to just kind of like, uh, focus.

[00:29:47] Like, I would longboard down [00:29:50] Promontory high on marijuana and wasted on, you know- Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah ... eight, eight beers, and I would longboard.

[00:29:55] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:29:56] JEREMY: And so I-

[00:29:56] KYLE: That's the best time to do it. No. Confidence is at the highest.

[00:29:59] JEREMY: Yeah, [00:30:00] but I was- Oh, that's all you need ... good at it, right? And it was- Yeah ... kinda like I was able to just, like, do things that other people would just be like, "Whoa, holy craze," and then they would fall and, like- [00:30:10] Yeah

[00:30:10] smash out their teeth. No, I was like-

[00:30:12] KYLE: Zoned

[00:30:12] JEREMY: in ... locked in. Yeah. Yeah, when I was doing that. So, um, uh, so yeah, so I was drinking heavily still, and then we [00:30:20] had a friend who was a part of the covenant in

[00:30:22] KYLE: Chilliwack. Okay, so you're in this, living in this trailer with your brother- Yeah ... who's on fire. He must see that you're drinking.

[00:30:26] JEREMY: Yeah, he was, but it was, uh, again, like my [00:30:30] family doesn't like confrontation.

[00:30:32] KYLE: Oh, okay.

[00:30:32] JEREMY: Right? So it's kind of like at this point he's doing his own thing, I'm doing my own thing. It doesn't, it's not [00:30:40] like-

[00:30:40] KYLE: He didn't, well, he told you once you needed to repent on the drive back home, but you didn't- Yeah ... you did, you got home and he didn't tell you again basically after that.

[00:30:46] JEREMY: Well, I think my actions towards [00:30:50] moving home affirmed in him that I was- Okay ... on that same path. Okay. Right? 'Cause I would profess it, I would just follow and-

[00:30:58] KYLE: Yeah, yeah ...

[00:30:58] JEREMY: and, um, at this [00:31:00] point-

[00:31:00] KYLE: That makes sense. Okay.

[00:31:01] JEREMY: Yeah. So, and then- And

[00:31:02] KYLE: so then the drinking is just kind of like a thing that happens, but this isn't a talk now.

[00:31:04] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah. Like my whole family would drink sometimes, right? And like we, like w- in, in my family, we have a history of [00:31:10] drinking, so like on Christmas my uncle would come over and, you know, we'd get the alcohol out and we'd all s- drink. Like even my parents. Yeah. Yeah. And so- You're

[00:31:18] KYLE: talking to a, a [00:31:20] Dutch, Dutch guy, so that's pretty normal.

[00:31:21] JEREMY: Yeah, exactly. It's pretty normal, right? So I don't think the drinking in their eyes that I was doing was like, "Holy flip, he needs to stop."

[00:31:29] KYLE: Understood. It was, [00:31:30] yeah. Right. 'Cause I- And it's pretty hide, pretty easy to hide the excessiveness of it then too.

[00:31:33] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah. And when I did drink, I was able to lock in, so I was able to hide it really well.

[00:31:38] KYLE: Hm.

[00:31:38] JEREMY: Uh, yeah, I had run-ins with the [00:31:40] cops when I was drunk public, and I was able to like hold my words and- Good. And

[00:31:44] KYLE: what would you be doing for work? 'Cause you're like 19, 18, 19 at

[00:31:47] JEREMY: this point. Yeah, I was 19 at this point, so [00:31:50] we moved back, um, after my 19th birth- uh, before my 19th birthday. Right. So I was 19 at this point.

[00:31:56] Um, we had just moved back, and I believe I got [00:32:00] a job at Red Robins in Abbotsford. Okay. Because I was Red Robins in Edmonton, right? And then I worked at Red Robins in Abbotsford. Um, and then after the trailer we [00:32:10] moved our whole family. So we have this history in my family, we pride ourselves, I've moved 30 times in my life.

[00:32:18] KYLE: Oh, my

[00:32:18] JEREMY: word. Like 30 times. [00:32:20] 15 with my family, like my mom and dad, and like as a family moved 15 times, and then the rest of it was after. So just the whole time just moving around, moving around. Never [00:32:30] had a stable home.

[00:32:31] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:32:31] JEREMY: Right now is the longest I've been in a house, but we can get there. Okay. Um, but essentially we moved to Abbotsford.

[00:32:37] So my family loves to sell [00:32:40] everything and just move somewhere. All right. So like it's the Ryan way.

[00:32:44] KYLE: Okay.

[00:32:45] JEREMY: Right? It's the Ryan way. Uh- You have a- Not my Ryan way anymore. Okay. But yeah.

[00:32:49] KYLE: You kicked [00:32:50] the bug?

[00:32:50] JEREMY: I did. I kicked the bug, yeah. And, uh, so far. And so basically it's the Ryan way. We all moved into a house in Abbotsford, my mom, [00:33:00] my dad, my sister, me, Tim, uh, my brother, and our friend, uh, Matt.

[00:33:06] KYLE: So your sister from Ontario before, um, from Edmonton comes back and [00:33:10] lives in with you guys? Yeah,

[00:33:10] JEREMY: yeah.

[00:33:11] KYLE: With her kid and husband?

[00:33:14] JEREMY: husband did she have? Yeah, she had a kid at this point. I think the kid was living with her dad. Oh, okay. So she's [00:33:20] been divorced three times and she's, you know- Oh ... still single-

[00:33:23] KYLE: Okay

[00:33:23] JEREMY: at this point, right? She has a whole story of, um- Okay. Sounds good ... on her side, right? Yeah. So, um, yeah, she has two kids.

[00:33:29] KYLE: Okay, so the whole family's back [00:33:30] together.

[00:33:30] JEREMY: The whole family's back together because of end times. The end times- Well- ... are gonna happen, right? And so we're all-

[00:33:35] KYLE: Who's saying who, who, who, where did this come from?

[00:33:37] This is left field. You're 19 years old and-

[00:33:39] JEREMY: Yeah ...

[00:33:39] KYLE: who, who starts

[00:33:39] JEREMY: talking? My [00:33:40] brother came on fire for Christ- Yeah ... in the Wax Shack, came out of the Wax Shack, was like, "We need to move back and tell everyone about the end times that are coming."

[00:33:49] KYLE: Okay.

[00:33:49] JEREMY: So he was [00:33:50] premillennial, right?

[00:33:52] KYLE: Okay. And then- And people didn't start telling him he has to go back to the Wax Shack

[00:33:56] JEREMY: at that point?

[00:33:56] No. I'm sure someone was thinking that. Part of [00:34:00] me now thinks like, "Oh, yeah, okay, no, you s- you should stay." But no, um, it's, you know, it's a predominant view in the, in the Christian circles, [00:34:10] premillennialism, right? Yeah. Okay. So, so- Yeah, so

[00:34:10] KYLE: he starts being really strongly about this and your whole family buys in?

[00:34:14] JEREMY: Yeah. Essentially, yeah. Oh,

[00:34:15] KYLE: wow. So your brother has a lot of influence.

[00:34:17] JEREMY: Yes. And it has always been that [00:34:20] way till, you know, recently essentially. Yeah.

[00:34:23] KYLE: Fascinating. Okay.

[00:34:24] JEREMY: Yeah. Very fascinating. So my brother is very persuasive, very, you know, strong about his convictions, [00:34:30] can very articulate his words, like very influential.

[00:34:33] Um, and so we essentially, we were prepping for the end times and we built a huge garden in the [00:34:40] back of this house, uh, in Abbotsford, and to grow our own food to get self-sustaining, like a kinda trial run. Well [00:34:50] Essentially, after that point in the Abbotsford house, we had some falling outs, um, with, uh, a friend of [00:35:00] ours, I believe.

[00:35:01] No, it wasn't in that house. No, no, no. We all lived in that house, and then we decided, okay, end times are coming. So [00:35:10] we sell everything, and we move up into Hundred Mile house.

[00:35:14] KYLE: Okay, so this is- Yeah ... you're 20 years old?

[00:35:17] JEREMY: 20, yeah, around, yeah, 20 years old.

[00:35:18] KYLE: Okay, and you have a- 20, 21 ... you're living in [00:35:20] Abbotsford.

[00:35:20] You have a big garden in the back-

[00:35:21] JEREMY: Yeah ... '

[00:35:22] KYLE: cause you're trial running 'cause the end times are coming.

[00:35:23] JEREMY: Yeah. And

[00:35:24] KYLE: are you, is, are you guys evangelizing and talking to people about the end times?

[00:35:26] JEREMY: Well, I'm doing mushrooms, and I'm still drinking, [00:35:30] and essentially- Okay, so

[00:35:30] KYLE: you're just kind of there in the background doing your thing.

[00:35:32] JEREMY: Yeah, there in the background, going to work at Red Robins.

[00:35:34] KYLE: Okay.

[00:35:35] JEREMY: Right? Um-

[00:35:36] KYLE: So you're along for the ride, basically.

[00:35:37] JEREMY: I'm along for the ride, still doing drugs.

[00:35:39] KYLE: [00:35:40] Okay. So I'm still doing mushrooms. And do you know if your brother, is he telling everyone, or is he just kind of keeping it, "We're doing end times, and we're getting us ready," or was he, like, evangelizing?

[00:35:47] JEREMY: So he was doing mushrooms as well. [00:35:50] So-

[00:35:50] KYLE: Oh.

[00:35:51] JEREMY: Yeah, so he ... So essentially, there's a view that we have. D- like, I don't hold this view anymore, but they would hold this view, that [00:36:00] drugs essentially are not sinful. Okay. Like, the act, like, the drug is not sinful. So shrooms, naturally growing, right? Marijuana, naturally [00:36:10] growing, not inherently sinful, right?

[00:36:13] The addiction is sinful. Yeah. But mushrooms aren't addictive, which I would argue that, uh, [00:36:20] they are kind of, not in the same way as heroin or meth. But, um, essentially, so that's the view at this point. Okay. And so my brother would do shrooms, [00:36:30] and so we actually had to call the cops at one point because he was fly- right, coming out of the w- uh, out of the whack shack, and then, you know, now he's doing shrooms, and we had to [00:36:40] call the cops at one point to take him away because he was out of his mind.

[00:36:43] He was ruining his- Okay ... his bedroom and everything. And so there was still a lot of [00:36:50] Sin. Yeah. There's still a lot of sin, right? Though he was, uh, like brought us back and brought the whole family together.

[00:36:56] KYLE: Yeah, it was, the sanctifi- the sanctification didn't happen right away?

[00:36:58] JEREMY: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It [00:37:00] wasn't instant perfection.

[00:37:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, as we all know. Yeah,

[00:37:03] KYLE: yeah. Um- While there's some people that might teach that once you get saved, you're instantly perfect.

[00:37:08] JEREMY: Right, and they would be wrong. [00:37:10] Yeah.

[00:37:10] KYLE: They'd be very wrong.

[00:37:11] JEREMY: Very wrong, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Or no one's saved. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:15] KYLE: Um. Yeah. Okay, so, so in this whole thing- Right

[00:37:18] and your parents would [00:37:20] be doing, um, mushrooms and-

[00:37:22] JEREMY: No, my parents don't, didn't do drugs-

[00:37:23] KYLE: Okay ...

[00:37:24] JEREMY: still. They

[00:37:24] KYLE: were, they-

[00:37:24] JEREMY: Like, we were, we kinda transitioned out of being, because we had [00:37:30] moved out- Mm ... and then we had moved back, it transitioned from Mom and Dad telling us what to do-

[00:37:35] KYLE: Oh, yeah ...

[00:37:35] JEREMY: to more like we're living together.

[00:37:37] Like- Okay, yeah ... co- co-relationship- Okay ... [00:37:40] friends, essentially. But

[00:37:41] KYLE: your brother still has a lot of influence 'cause he's saying end times.

[00:37:43] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And they beli- like they believe- And you're caught in ... the end times as well, right? They- Okay. Until recently, they- Okay ... they [00:37:50] believe that the end times are happening.

[00:37:51] KYLE: Um- Okay, so then you guys decide to move 100 Mile, 'cause what's 100 Mile?

[00:37:54] JEREMY: Uh, a piece of land-

[00:37:56] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:37:57] JEREMY: that doesn't ha- it has a house on it, but we're not [00:38:00] allowed in the house, and so we move into tents, uh, down at the bottom of this, um, uh, kind of valley. Like the property you come on, and then you go [00:38:10] down a big hill.

[00:38:11] Yeah. And then it's just like, um, alpine trees. Uh, what are they called? They're like skinny white trees that are- Birch. Yeah, or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:20] Uh, so we did that, and we moved, we got all the

[00:38:23] KYLE: gear. And we is you, your brother, your parents, your sister?

[00:38:25] JEREMY: My sister didn't move with us. Okay. Yeah, she didn't come up with us.

[00:38:29] She, [00:38:30] I think she had a husband and then was in the middle of a divorce, and then she- Okay ... yeah, and then she moved away. So it was me, my brother, our friend Matt, [00:38:40] um, my dad, and my mom had work, so she only came up intermittently.

[00:38:48] KYLE: Okay.

[00:38:48] JEREMY: So it was the four of us. And

[00:38:48] KYLE: why were you here? 'Cause [00:38:50] what was here? Like the end times are gonna come

[00:38:51] JEREMY: when?

[00:38:51] The end times are gonna come, so we need to get self-sustaining.

[00:38:54] KYLE: Okay.

[00:38:55] JEREMY: So the whole goal Was to build a lean [00:39:00] to, a shelter at the bottom of this property, and we did it with cordwood, and, uh, going into the woods-

[00:39:06] KYLE: It's amazing to me- Yeah ... how bought in you are to all these things. Like, you [00:39:10] really- Yeah ... went along with the flow, like-

[00:39:11] JEREMY: Oh, yeah

[00:39:12] KYLE: like, and if- Yeah.

[00:39:12] JEREMY: Oh, yeah ...

[00:39:13] KYLE: if the flow was extreme, you... That didn't matter.

[00:39:15] JEREMY: We sponge bathed. Yeah, and we slept at negative 30 at, like, the end of the [00:39:20] five months we were there. We slept at negative 30 in tents with negative 10 sleeping bags. It was

[00:39:24] KYLE: amazing. And, and at no point did you think, "Guys, this is insane"?

[00:39:27] JEREMY: So no. [00:39:30] No, 'cause I was just going along for the ride. I thought it was fun. Like, it was, you know, an experience, because we would... So what would- But you

[00:39:37] KYLE: didn't believe in it even. Like, you were just along for the [00:39:40] ride. You-

[00:39:40] JEREMY: Yeah, and I was still drinking, and we would still- I

[00:39:42] KYLE: guess, yeah, when you're in that

[00:39:43] JEREMY: Yeah.

[00:39:44] Yeah, and we're still drinking, and- And

[00:39:45] KYLE: how do you think back on it now?

[00:39:47] JEREMY: I think back on it now [00:39:50] that- I

[00:39:50] KYLE: mean, great memories. Must be great memories ...

[00:39:51] JEREMY: great memories. Yeah, yeah, like cr- crazy- Just go- ... memories. Like- Crazy memories ... I'm,

[00:39:54] KYLE: I'm

[00:39:55] JEREMY: sitting

[00:39:55] KYLE: here- Just go camping with your family for five months in the middle- Yeah

[00:39:57] what

[00:39:58] JEREMY: in the world? In tents, and then we built a [00:40:00] lean to, so a 12 foot by eight foot lean to that goes down like this with a metal roof and then two walls on the other side. And we- And would

[00:40:07] KYLE: you have known how to build this kind of stuff?

[00:40:08] JEREMY: Yeah, so my dad-

[00:40:09] KYLE: [00:40:10] Yeah ...

[00:40:10] JEREMY: was like, we still had access to the internet, and like- Yeah

[00:40:12] he, he, he knew how to build this. Okay. So what we would do is our average day is... And we still went into town for supplies, so [00:40:20] we weren't self-sufficient. We were building.

[00:40:21] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:40:22] JEREMY: Right? And so we, what we did is we went into the bush, and we'd take our big, uh, you know, um, dual wheel- [00:40:30] dual-wheeled, uh, Chevy 4500.

[00:40:32] We would drive into the bush. We would buck down trees, so I was chainsaw guy. And

[00:40:36] KYLE: you don't even own this property, right?

[00:40:38] JEREMY: You just- No, we don't even own this property ...

[00:40:39] KYLE: you just, [00:40:40] some guy lets, letting you use-

[00:40:41] JEREMY: Yeah, our friends, lifelong friends.

[00:40:42] KYLE: Okay,

[00:40:43] JEREMY: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we weren't even off-grid because the, the land was owned by the friends- Yeah

[00:40:47] that was on the registry, so like, [00:40:50] we weren't even off grid. It wasn't like we went into somewhere and, like, crowned land. Didn't, didn't

[00:40:54] KYLE: necessarily make sense, but it just-

[00:40:55] JEREMY: Yeah, it didn't necessarily make sense, right? But we're like, "Yeah, let's get self-sufficient." Yeah. So we go and we [00:41:00] build these lean tos, and our average day would look like, um, uh, we would go into the bush.

[00:41:06] We would buck down trees, cut them into [00:41:10] nine-inch rounds- Yeah ... to build walls. So the rounds would build walls. And we went into the bush. We got 30-foot logs. I don't know [00:41:20] if you can, like, describe- Yeah, yeah. That's

[00:41:21] KYLE: super

[00:41:21] JEREMY: long ... it's super long logs, and those were our cross beams, and we got stopped by the, by the, um- Uh, forestry?

[00:41:29] Yeah, [00:41:30] forestry people who were like, "Buddy, you can't." Who were coming out of the bush- ... with logs on our pickup truck, right? Dragging on the ground 'cause we had to, like, hold them up off [00:41:40] the ground to take them back to put as our crossbeams. And the, the forestry guy came by the property, and he saw what we were doing with them.

[00:41:47] He was like, "What the... How are you g- [00:41:50] What? What are you guys doing?" 'Cause we had, like, an engine hoist, a chain engine hoist to lift these 30-foot logs up onto these beams. It was crazy, and [00:42:00] the guy didn't even give us a fine because he was like, "You guys, like, this-" This is incredible. "This is incredible how you got these down here."

[00:42:07] Yeah, and, um, so essentially, yeah, [00:42:10] we built the cordwood, uh, thing with nine-inch rounds on end, and you put cement around them to build the walls. So it looks like a polka dot wall, uh, structure. [00:42:20] Well, we never finished it. Um- What happened? And so my, our friend was heavily demonically influenced, essentially.

[00:42:29] Like- Oh, [00:42:30] lifelong friend ... like, yeah, lifelong friend. Um, he was a part of the coven in Chilliwack, and so he dealt with a lot of demonic demons, a lot of demons. [00:42:40] This kind of feeds into why I'm a cessationist now, uh, not a continuationist, which I ha- was for years and years and years. Um, but, um, he was-

[00:42:49] KYLE: And the difference [00:42:50] between those is the, do you believe in the g- uh, um, the-

[00:42:53] JEREMY: The speaking in tongues prophecy is- Still

[00:42:55] KYLE: happening or not happening, right?

[00:42:56] JEREMY: Is, yeah, still happening or not. Yeah, so you

[00:42:57] KYLE: believe it's not happening anymore?

[00:42:58] JEREMY: I believe it's not happening anymore. [00:43:00] Okay. Yeah. Um-

[00:43:01] KYLE: Okay ...

[00:43:01] JEREMY: miracles can still happen. Yeah.

[00:43:02] KYLE: But- Okay, so this guy that own, that owns the property, he's-

[00:43:04] JEREMY: He's not, he doesn't own it. He's the, he's one of the friends that moved with us.

[00:43:08] Oh, Matt. It was my brother. Yeah, it was [00:43:10] Matt. Okay. Yeah. He was heavily influenced. He was, he was d- possessed. Okay. He was a part of the coven in Chilliwack. We didn't realize this until, you know, like, extranormal [00:43:20] activities happened. Right. Um, and, uh, so he was actually possessed at one point, um, and he was frolicking on the [00:43:30] ground, and at one point he put a knife to my neck and was like- This is, like, at

[00:43:34] KYLE: this tent?

[00:43:35] JEREMY: Like- Yeah, this was down in Chilliwack. It's all kind of blurry. This was all kinda in that time period- Okay ... [00:43:40] 'cause we would go visit in Chilliwack as well. Okay. Right? And, um, uh, it was all part of the, like, yeah, all a part of this time period that we were there. We would go down to [00:43:50] Chilliwack, we'd come back.

[00:43:50] Okay. So this was in Chilliwack at my sister's house, um, at one point. She- In

[00:43:54] KYLE: these five months that you were at that tent, like, how many of those days would you have slept there?

[00:43:58] JEREMY: Almost all

[00:43:59] KYLE: of them. Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:43:59] JEREMY: [00:44:00] Yeah, yeah. Like, we would just go down for, like, a day or two.

[00:44:02] KYLE: Oh, okay.

[00:44:02] JEREMY: Yeah, we were sleeping there full time.

[00:44:04] KYLE: Okay.

[00:44:04] JEREMY: Yeah, full time.

[00:44:05] KYLE: Okay.

[00:44:05] JEREMY: Um, yeah, and so he, he would be demon-possessed. He was on [00:44:10] the ground frolicking around- This is, like, at the- ... with foam coming out of his mouth ... was that the

[00:44:13] KYLE: tent? This is, like... Or how did you

[00:44:14] JEREMY: get- This was at my sister's place in Chilliwack- Okay. Okay ... 'cause she didn't move up. Okay.

[00:44:18] But we were down visiting- Yeah ... [00:44:20] uh, her and her kids and, and, um, her husband at the time Uh, and he essentially, Matt was frolicking on the ground. [00:44:30] We're praying around him as well, and, uh, at one point, um, he almost broke my finger. He grabbed it and I was like, "You, in the name of Jesus, you [00:44:40] can't break my fi- like, you're not, you have no power here," essentially.

[00:44:43] And then I grabbed a knife and I put it into his hands, and I put it to my neck, and I was like, "If you have any [00:44:50] power here, like, cut, like, kill me right now." And he, he- It's

[00:44:55] KYLE: an extreme thing to do ...

[00:44:56] JEREMY: like, an extreme thing to do. Uh, we were very big into, [00:45:00] like, the spirituality of- Okay ... Christianity at this point.

[00:45:03] So I was reading, like, um, uh, you know, about the bondage breakers, and so, [00:45:10] like, demonic, uh, uh, things you shouldn't be learning about. The Bible clearly says you shouldn't be learning about these things, but they're teaching them in a charismatic church. [00:45:20] Hmm. Right? And so, um, up at Hundred Mile, back up at Hundred Mile, right, we're reading these books because this demonic stuff is happening [00:45:30] to our friend Matt because he's demon-possessed.

[00:45:32] Hmm And, uh, um, essentially I had one point I was reading, uh, my, my spiritual book-

[00:45:39] KYLE: [00:45:40] Yep ...

[00:45:40] JEREMY: and to learn about, you know, spiritual warfare and stuff like this, and he was just, Matt was pacing back and forth, like, so angry, [00:45:50] like, and like you're reading that, and then he, and then I would start praying in tongues.

[00:45:55] And so, um, I-

[00:45:57] KYLE: What is, uh, how do you remember praying in tongues? [00:46:00] Are you just-

[00:46:00] JEREMY: I can still do it. It's, it's, I, I f- I think it's either-

[00:46:05] KYLE: I thought, I, I thought you were not a, I thought those gifts have-

[00:46:07] JEREMY: Well, now I believe that they have ceased.

[00:46:09] KYLE: [00:46:10] Okay. But you-

[00:46:10] JEREMY: I-

[00:46:10] KYLE: But you can still pray in tongues?

[00:46:12] JEREMY: So yes. So because what I believe about tongues right now is it's either made up, right, you're making it up-

[00:46:19] KYLE: Yeah[00:46:20]

[00:46:20] JEREMY: or it's demonically, it's demonic.

[00:46:22] KYLE: Okay.

[00:46:23] JEREMY: And, um, to speak in those tongues, you're speaking in tongues of demons essentially, right?

[00:46:28] KYLE: Okay.

[00:46:28] JEREMY: And so, [00:46:30] um, to this story, he was walking back and forth. I start praying in tongues, and he comes over and he whispers in my ears. He, he s- he speaks [00:46:40] in the exact same, the exact same tongue I was speaking in, and he's like, "I can do that too."

[00:46:45] And I'm like, "Oh, well, holy," right? And this kinda- [00:46:50] This leads into the revelation years later that, you know, tongues are either demonic or- Mm ... or, um, uh- Or made up ... or [00:47:00] made up. Yeah. Right? And I believe mine are demonic. Okay. Like, I actually-- I was practicing, uh, divination by sitting there and emptying my mind, [00:47:10] listening for a voice, which they teach in the charismatic church, right?

[00:47:13] Mm. Uh, to hear the voice of God. Mm. Well, no, you're hearing the voice of demons. Now I believe that. But I believed that I [00:47:20] could hear from God. Like, I would have, um, prophetic words, and I would have-- And I was accurate, too. People would be like, "Holy flip, that was accurate."

[00:47:28] KYLE: Mm.

[00:47:29] JEREMY: I was [00:47:30] fortune-telling, and I was demonically speaking in tongues- Mm

[00:47:33] and practicing demonic practices that I had no idea, because I thought I was a Christian- Mm ... and those are the Christian things to do. [00:47:40] And so anyways, right? That, that story right there was kinda like, okay, right? Now I look back on that, I'm like, "Yeah."

[00:47:48] KYLE: Yeah. "

[00:47:48] JEREMY: It was demonic tongues." [00:47:50] Um, but essentially, yeah, so, uh, after the hundred-mile house, at that point, we were up in the house because it was wintertime.

[00:47:57] And so the people who owned the [00:48:00] property- Okay ... let us move up into that house, and our tents were down there, and they went over, you know, a bunch of snow. But we did sleep in those tents at negative 30 with [00:48:10] snow, and we would sponge bathe in the snow, and we would get up every day and, and, uh, essentially go and make a fire in our wood-burning stove, and we would cook our food on the [00:48:20] wood-burning stove Man, we got that thing so red hot, we could put, you know, pop cans in it and they would just incinerate, and it was like red hot, burning hot.

[00:48:29] Crazy. So it was just so [00:48:30] cool. It was so much fun. Um, yeah. But, uh, so- So anyway,

[00:48:34] KYLE: you're living in the

[00:48:35] JEREMY: house on the

[00:48:35] KYLE: property.

[00:48:35] JEREMY: Yeah, now we're living in the house, and that's where that story happened. Okay. He was pacing back and [00:48:40] forth. Right. I was sitting in the house and, uh... And then my dad had moved back to Chilliwack to be with my mom.

[00:48:45] Okay. Because my mom didn't move up with us. Yeah. And he was away from his wife, which [00:48:50] ba- looking back now, I'm like, "We never should have done that." Yeah. Right? And like separate a man from his wife is like, what are we doing here? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but anyways, they [00:49:00] did it willfully, willingly, and, uh, and so that kind of all fell apart.

[00:49:03] Okay. Like, I have not been back up to Hunter Mile to see that lean-to, and now it's like a- Oh, so it's- It's a horse barn now. They [00:49:10] put their horses

[00:49:10] KYLE: into it. Oh, oh, oh, so it was built good enough to, like, be safe,

[00:49:12] JEREMY: sure. Yeah, like we got the floor in, we got the wood-burning stove with the chimney up through the roof.

[00:49:17] My brother fell off the roof while we were putting on the [00:49:20] metal, in the snow. Um, and- Yikes ... yeah, so.

[00:49:23] KYLE: You have pictures of it?

[00:49:24] JEREMY: Ah, I do.

[00:49:26] KYLE: Okay.

[00:49:26] JEREMY: Yeah, and I can-

[00:49:26] KYLE: I'll see if I can put pictures in the, in the podcast, uh, when it gets published.

[00:49:29] JEREMY: [00:49:30] Sure. Yeah. Yeah, if I can find them. Yeah, yeah. I know my parents have- Yeah, yeah

[00:49:32] have pictures of it. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:49:33] KYLE: okay.

[00:49:34] JEREMY: But, uh,

[00:49:34] KYLE: yeah. Okay, so you move back to Chilliwack. You're probably 21 at this point.

[00:49:37] JEREMY: Yeah, and then we start going to City Life Church.

[00:49:39] KYLE: [00:49:40] Okay.

[00:49:40] JEREMY: So Glad Tidings- Yeah ... City Life Church, um, attached to High Road Academy. Uh, and essentially we started going there, um, because [00:49:50] during that time in Hunter Mile, right, that demonic stuff was happening with Matt, uh, my brother and my dad had went to talk to someone at City Life, uh, [00:50:00] Rick, who was a pastor there.

[00:50:01] I do quotations 'cause now my views are different. Um, was the spiritual, um [00:50:10] uh, essentially protector of that church or knew the most about these spiritual things and would talk to demons and already I'm like, "Ah, it's messed up." Now I'm like, "What the hell?" Yeah. And then [00:50:20] so Pastor, Pastor Rick put his hands on my brother, and my brother starts speaking in tongues, like instantly, and this was a thing my brother had happened to him.

[00:50:29] [00:50:30] Um, and he still thinks he s- he still speaks in tongues today, right? So my family are still very continuationist.

[00:50:36] KYLE: Okay.

[00:50:36] JEREMY: Um, believing that the gifts are for today. Okay. I'm, I'm not.

[00:50:39] KYLE: [00:50:40] So you, so how do you think on that now if speaking in tongues- Mm-hmm ... is either made up or a demon?

[00:50:45] JEREMY: Yeah.

[00:50:46] KYLE: Uh, what if your brother or family are still doing it?

[00:50:49] JEREMY: Yeah.

[00:50:49] KYLE: Do, [00:50:50] or you believe they're Christians that are making it up, or do you believe they're Christians that are demon-possessed or-

[00:50:56] JEREMY: Not possessed ...

[00:50:57] KYLE: or have influenced?

[00:50:58] JEREMY: Y- so [00:51:00] not demonically it, so maybe demonically influenced- Okay ... actually. I think, so this, right, it's like it's not talked about [00:51:10] really, uh, because we don't wanna have division in the family.

[00:51:12] Yeah. Right? And so if I come with this view, they come with that. So it's kind of just like quiet about it. They know my views.

[00:51:18] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:51:19] JEREMY: Um, but we [00:51:20] never really sit down- Yeah ... and talk about them, right? 'Cause my views are very offensive to the charismatic.

[00:51:25] KYLE: Fair enough.

[00:51:26] JEREMY: Right? And so, um-

[00:51:29] KYLE: Yeah, so I'm curious. Yeah.[00:51:30]

[00:51:30] Okay, so you think- Mm-hmm ... you're not maybe dem- demonically influenced?

[00:51:34] JEREMY: So either maybe

[00:51:35] KYLE: it, uh- Like is your brother still very on fire for God?

[00:51:36] JEREMY: Yes, very on fire for

[00:51:38] KYLE: God. And fi- and fire for the gospel as well?

[00:51:39] JEREMY: [00:51:40] Yes.

[00:51:40] KYLE: Like the go- Yeah ... 'cause that's always- Like the gospel ... been really important is like when I see someone on fire for something that I think is completely whacked-

[00:51:47] JEREMY: Right

[00:51:48] KYLE: if they're less excited about [00:51:50] that than they are the gospel, the gospel's still way more exciting for, for them- Oh, yeah ... and that's what they're still in pri- pushing primarily, I have way more trust because I'm like they're still keeping- [00:52:00]

[00:52:00] JEREMY: Yeah ...

[00:52:00] KYLE: one, one, right? Mm-hmm. But when it gets flipped, then I'm always like, "Well, what's going on here?

[00:52:04] This is something sideways."

[00:52:05] JEREMY: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, so definitely Christians, definitely [00:52:10] the gospel is primary, like the actual gospel. Yeah, yeah. You know, not the get rich and quick or whatever- Yeah ... like prosperity. But like the actual gospel. Okay. Jesus Christ [00:52:20] crucified, right? We worship him, we praise him. Yeah.

[00:52:22] Thank you, Lord, for forgiving me for my sins.

[00:52:24] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:52:25] JEREMY: That gospel. Yeah. The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. So very much Christians. Yeah. [00:52:30] Very much love Jesus. They just- Yeah ... have a different, uh, view of the gifts- Yeah ... just like a John Piper. Yeah. If, if anything, the John Piper view-

[00:52:39] KYLE: Okay, I wanna p- ... is the view that I know

[00:52:39] I wanna [00:52:40]

[00:52:40] JEREMY: pause

[00:52:40] KYLE: you there.

[00:52:40] JEREMY: Yeah, go for

[00:52:41] KYLE: it. 'Cause I'm gonna go, uh, do a piss break.

[00:52:43] JEREMY: Okay.

[00:52:44] KYLE: And then I'll- Sounds good ... do an ad read.

[00:52:45] JEREMY: Nice.

[00:52:46] KYLE: And then we'll get back into it.

[00:52:47] JEREMY: Sweet. Perfect. We're rolling. [00:52:50] I need to take some coffee here. Yeah. Mm. You need water or anything, either? Mm. No, I brought water. All right. Thanks, though.

[00:52:56] Cool.[00:53:00] [00:53:10] [00:53:20] [00:53:30] [00:53:40] [00:53:50] [00:54:00]

[00:54:09] So [00:54:10] I essentially made it so you can call two lists. You can call BC and you can call Ontario. So you might [00:54:20] need to, in the power dialer, there might be some dropdowns up at the top if you're not seeing any contacts in your power dialer. You have to switch your [00:54:30] workflow, uh, to the Ontario power dialer, 'cause I made it for each rep that you're able to switch between BC and Ontario.[00:54:40]

[00:54:40] So I took your guys' advice. I had David, our fellow, uh, sales guy, ask if he could call into BC and then call into Ontario [00:54:50] 'cause he works different days, um, for different time zones. And so I said sure, so I had fixed it. So you need to select your [00:55:00] workflow, um, that you're gonna dial out of. I hope that helps[00:55:10] [00:55:20] [00:55:30]

[00:55:31] KYLE: Okay. Let's see if I can do this Okay, guys. Nitty Gritty Tiles. You know what's [00:55:40] amazing? People will spend 15 grand renovating their be- bedroom and then hire their buddy Steve because he's done the backsplash before. Next thing you know, the shower slopes the wrong way, [00:55:50] the grout's cracking, and somehow the bathroom has become a water feature.

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[00:56:22] Because here's the thing, tile isn't hard work to make Tile isn't hard to make look good for a week. [00:56:30] Making it look good 10 years later, question mark, that's the difference. So save yourself the headaches, the leaks, the YouTube education, and the inevitable I should have just hired a professional [00:56:40] conversation with your wife.

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[00:56:58] JEREMY: Nice ...

[00:56:59] KYLE: you're [00:57:00] going to this Pentecostal church.

[00:57:02] JEREMY: Yeah, so we start going to City Life.

[00:57:04] KYLE: And, um, you have this, um, thing with your pastor and your brother, and he starts speaking in tongues. [00:57:10]

[00:57:10] JEREMY: Yeah,

[00:57:10] KYLE: my brother, yeah. And you start listening to more reformed teachers at this point? Or, or what, how did you, what happened next?

[00:57:17] JEREMY: Okay, so essentially that [00:57:20] time where they went and got like, um, you know, advice about the- Yeah

[00:57:24] spiritual warfare happening- Yeah ... that was in the middle of the five months. So they had- Okay ... traveled from... [00:57:30] So after 100 Mile House, we all moved back to Chilliwack, and we left Matt up in 100 Mile.

[00:57:36] KYLE: Okay.

[00:57:37] JEREMY: And we made sure he had a place to stay. Yeah. We were getting him a [00:57:40] place 'cause we were like, "We can't live with a guy- Yeah

[00:57:42] who is demon-possessed." And so, um, where I landed, uh, and my family landed was in City Life because that [00:57:50] was the- Yeah ... pastor they went and saw, um, about it. And so I went to City Life, and I got a part of the youth group there, and I started leading in [00:58:00] youth, and I went there for, and then I was a part of the kids ministry there.

[00:58:04] Uh, I did VBS for three years. I was there for seven years total. But, um, [00:58:10] so my family, during my time at City Life, they left City Life because they started listening to John Piper. And so-

[00:58:19] KYLE: Your family did?

[00:58:19] JEREMY: [00:58:20] Yeah, my family did. Which

[00:58:21] KYLE: fam- Like your mom and dad?

[00:58:22] JEREMY: Like my mom, dad, my brother. They didn't agree with the theology at City Life.

[00:58:27] KYLE: Okay.

[00:58:27] JEREMY: And so this is kind of a trend, [00:58:30] right? They've boun- they bounced churches, and then they left City Life because of the doctrinal, you know, things on- Okay ... things on the pulp that were said that they didn't agree with. Okay. And so they left, [00:58:40] and I stayed 'cause I, I'm, you know, very, very- Yeah ...

[00:58:43] KYLE: m-

[00:58:43] JEREMY: mellow and, like, just kind of- I

[00:58:45] KYLE: thought you just went along with everything your par- your family did.

[00:58:48] JEREMY: At this point, [00:58:50] I didn't.

[00:58:51] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:58:52] JEREMY: I don't know why.

[00:58:53] KYLE: Okay.

[00:58:53] JEREMY: I, uh, at this point, um- It was, you know, City Life, I had friends there. I [00:59:00] was making friends, I knew people there- Yeah ... so I decide, I think I, I just decide- Okay, but your- ... to stay at City Life ...

[00:59:04] KYLE: but your family gets-

[00:59:05] JEREMY: They went to Central. They started going to Central.

[00:59:07] KYLE: Okay. Yeah. And because they got influenced by John [00:59:10] Piper, they found him- Yep ... online somewhere.

[00:59:11] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah, John Piper, they found him online. Um, you know, just kind of more of that reformed- Okay ... type doctrines, um, from John [00:59:20] Piper, and my dad, big believer in reading the Bible, um, uh, and the Bible speaking and-

[00:59:26] KYLE: Yeah,

[00:59:26] JEREMY: yeah

[00:59:26] you know, dreams speak to him as well, and so, [00:59:30] um-

[00:59:30] KYLE: Okay, and then so you're at City Life, and then what's next?

[00:59:32] JEREMY: Yeah. So I'm at City Life, so I do their discipleship program. I call it a cult now because that's what it was. So [00:59:40] it was called Master's Commission-

[00:59:41] KYLE: Okay ...

[00:59:42] JEREMY: uh, back in the day, and then it switched over to Launch.

[00:59:45] KYLE: Okay.

[00:59:45] JEREMY: Um, and it was, uh, essentially I did that for two [00:59:50] years, and the reason I call it a cult, uh, and not a discipleship program, it was more like Do what we say and don't listen to [01:00:00] anything else. We're gonna teach you the John Bevere's, the Lisa Bevere. We're gonna teach you the, you know, all this stuff, and we don't want you learning other things to [01:00:10] hinder your learning here.

[01:00:11] KYLE: Whatever, whatever somebody says, things like that. Yeah. Oh,

[01:00:12] JEREMY: yeah. Like, whoa. It was very much like that. It was very much like a, "Don't talk back to the leadership or you're in trouble"- Yeah ... [01:00:20] essentially, right? And it's like, okay, hold up, hold up. I look back on it. Um, anyways, I did two years there, so I was a student the first year, and then I was an intern the second year.

[01:00:29] [01:00:30] My wife, she was in that program for six years.

[01:00:33] KYLE: Oh, wow.

[01:00:34] JEREMY: Yeah. So she did student year, intern year, and then she went on staff-

[01:00:38] KYLE: Okay ...

[01:00:38] JEREMY: for the next [01:00:40] four years.

[01:00:41] KYLE: Um-

[01:00:41] JEREMY: At

[01:00:41] KYLE: this church?

[01:00:42] JEREMY: At that City Life, in the cult. Okay. And right, they had a discipleship program that was, uh-

[01:00:47] KYLE: And what did that mean, a discipleship program?

[01:00:48] You just had to do a class once a [01:00:50] week or like what?

[01:00:50] JEREMY: No, it was like you go there every day from 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM, and then you do projects. You do slave labor on top of [01:01:00] that- Oh ... to help pay for the program, but they make you pay $6,000. Oh, yeah.

[01:01:03] KYLE: This is one of those charity-

[01:01:04] JEREMY: Yeah, one of those charity- ... like work, get free

[01:01:06] KYLE: labor

[01:01:07] JEREMY: garbage... Exactly. So we would go to, like moving [01:01:10] projects. We would go help, um, uh, you know, do someone's backyard gardening, and we would split up in groups. Okay,

[01:01:16] KYLE: so actual, actual ministry work too, though?

[01:01:18] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But [01:01:20] we... They would get donations for it.

[01:01:22] KYLE: Oh, yeah,

[01:01:22] JEREMY: yeah. So, like the donations would go to the program- Mm-hmm

[01:01:25] and we would go do the work. Oh, yeah. Slave labor. Yeah. Like, I don't know, I don't know how, how else [01:01:30] you wanna put that.

[01:01:32] KYLE: Okay.

[01:01:32] JEREMY: Um, yeah. But

[01:01:34] KYLE: yeah, started- And so would you stop reading all the other people too during this discipleship program you were

[01:01:38] JEREMY: in? S- so no. So the thing [01:01:40] is, is like I didn't listen to that.

[01:01:41] I, I started li- I was listening to John Piper as well.

[01:01:44] KYLE: Okay.

[01:01:45] JEREMY: And so my first year I went along with it, right? And my second [01:01:50] year I had a choice to sit in on the class teachings. John Bevere, you know, these guys I just despised. Like, I just couldn't even listen to it because it was just such [01:02:00] garbage. At this point I was like John Piper, listening to John Piper all the time.

[01:02:04] Yeah. Like getting that- Yeah ... more- Yeah ... foundation. Um, and so my second [01:02:10] year in, in Launch was just brutal because I was- And so

[01:02:14] KYLE: what, what... In you listening to John Piper, would you have said you would've been a Christian right at this point?

[01:02:19] JEREMY: Oh, [01:02:20] I totally missed a whole part. Okay, so- Like

[01:02:23] KYLE: a pretty big, pretty big part too.

[01:02:24] I,

[01:02:25] JEREMY: yes,

[01:02:25] KYLE: I- You're really, you're also really far from the mic right now.

[01:02:27] JEREMY: Oh, sorry about that. My goodness. I was, [01:02:30] uh, I was blown. I, I totally missed a part.

[01:02:32] KYLE: Okay? Yeah,

[01:02:33] JEREMY: yeah. Apparently. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy crikeys. Okay, so big part. At this point, I [01:02:40] was a Christian at that point, but let's, let's rewind a bit

[01:02:43] KYLE: because- Okay, where in the timeline of what we talked about did you become a Christian?

[01:02:46] Okay.

[01:02:46] JEREMY: We came back from 100 Mile House.

[01:02:49] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:02:49] JEREMY: [01:02:50] Okay? I were going to City Life for seven years. Yeah. Um, uh, the last two years of City Life, so the year before [01:03:00] that Um, I- When

[01:03:02] KYLE: did you do the discipleship program? What year?

[01:03:04] JEREMY: So 2016.

[01:03:05] KYLE: What- Okay.

[01:03:06] JEREMY: 20- 2016. So 2012 was the car accident in Edmonton. [01:03:10] Of,

[01:03:10] KYLE: of what, of what year- Yeah

[01:03:11] at City Life did you do the discipleship program? Near the end? Oh, what year? Yeah, near the end. Oh, okay. So like the sixth and seventh year I did that. Understood. Yeah. And then- Okay, so you're

[01:03:13] JEREMY: on track then?[01:03:20]

[01:03:21] Yeah, but no, because I was still drinking and I was still going to river parties.

[01:03:25] KYLE: Okay.

[01:03:26] JEREMY: And I would go get blasted and drive.

[01:03:28] KYLE: Through all,

[01:03:29] JEREMY: through this, through

[01:03:29] KYLE: this- Through this City Life ... the discipleship [01:03:30] prog- program, k- kids ministry-

[01:03:32] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah ...

[01:03:33] KYLE: all, all these things.

[01:03:33] JEREMY: Yeah, so it was kids ministry and youth.

[01:03:36] Yeah. Right? I was just serving like a normal, good, good Christian should. Yeah. [01:03:40] Right? As I was, you know, coursed into, um, in, in City Life, but I would still go to river parties. I would still drink. Like, I would still-

[01:03:49] KYLE: [01:03:50] Mushrooms, drugs?

[01:03:50] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah, not like dr- hard drugs at this point. It was more like just drinking.

[01:03:55] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:03:55] JEREMY: Right? And then 2016 came around, and that fall, [01:04:00] you know, it had got put in my ear, "You should do, you should do, um, you know, Master's Commission." And I'm like- What's that? That's the cult.

[01:04:09] KYLE: Okay.

[01:04:09] JEREMY: [01:04:10] Right? Is that- This is right before I went into the cult, right? Okay. And so that, that winter time, spring, summer, I had went to a river party, and I just got blasted, and I [01:04:20] was just doing my own thing, working at Red Robin still, and I had my restaurant life essentially, and, um, I would still get blackout wasted to go to a baseball [01:04:30] game, and I would drink a ton of Jameson.

[01:04:32] So at this point I was still heavily drinking.

[01:04:34] KYLE: Yeah. Okay.

[01:04:35] JEREMY: Um, yeah. And so, uh, going into 20... This was [01:04:40] 2016, so this was, I was still at City Life, uh, serving, and then, you know, the, it's a heavy recruiting at, at City Life to get people into this cult. They're like, "You [01:04:50] should do Master's Commission, uh, launch."

[01:04:52] And at that point, um, I had a girlfriend, and I got into a relationship with a girlfriend. Now, in [01:05:00] this cult program, you're not allowed to be in a relationship.

[01:05:03] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:05:04] JEREMY: Right? So I got into a relationship, um, and decided to [01:05:10] go as well, like to the, to the cult and hide it, right? And my conscience just... And I was in sexual immorality too.

[01:05:19] We were having [01:05:20] sex. And, um- Uh, you know, I was just blatantly in sexual sin- Yeah ... going to this discipleship program. So I, I don't [01:05:30] actually even call myself saved at that point.

[01:05:33] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:05:34] JEREMY: It was the New Year's of 2016. I had dropped out [01:05:40] of, um-

[01:05:41] KYLE: New Year's Day?

[01:05:42] JEREMY: Yeah, New Year's Eve.

[01:05:43] KYLE: Okay.

[01:05:44] JEREMY: So New Year's Eve. The night before that, my girlfriend had slept over, [01:05:50] um, at the place on Broadway.

[01:05:52] Um, and we slept in the same bed, and my brother is on fire for God at this point, [01:06:00] right? And he essentially, the next morning she left, and he Oh. Yeah, it was... [01:06:10] Okay, yeah, she slept over the night before New Year's Eve. He called me to repentance.

[01:06:15] KYLE: Um- So he's okay, he was okay with conflict again?

[01:06:16] JEREMY: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[01:06:17] At this point he was like, "You need to... Like, this [01:06:20] is wrong. Like, what are you doing? Like,

[01:06:22] KYLE: hell's coming." Okay, so like, do, do you remember how this- Yeah ... um, conversation went? It was New Year's Eve, y- they have a party planned. You're, you're

[01:06:28] JEREMY: like- He was in his prayer closet [01:06:30] praying. So we had a back room, and he would go in there and pray.

[01:06:34] And so he was in his prayer closet and- And

[01:06:36] KYLE: this is the guy that also believes that mushrooms and, are [01:06:40] okay?

[01:06:41] JEREMY: Yeah. So I, I don't, I don't... He doesn't think they're inherently sinful.

[01:06:46] KYLE: But inherently sinful, that's his view?

[01:06:47] JEREMY: Yeah. But he's, and he's... Okay, yeah.

[01:06:49] KYLE: Mm-hmm. It doesn't matter. [01:06:50] Anyway, he's in his prayer closet.

[01:06:51] JEREMY: Yeah, he's in the prayer closet, and w- he basically calls me in there, and essentially he calls me to repentance, and we both, we both [01:07:00] break down in tears 'cause I'm, I know I'm sinning. Um, and that night, New Year's Eve, I go into, uh, just like I have an en suite, we're [01:07:10] all bunk beds in an en suite with my cousins and, and then I go into the en suite and I fall down in tears and ashes, and I give my life to Christ.

[01:07:18] Tears and

[01:07:18] KYLE: ashes?

[01:07:19] JEREMY: Like, [01:07:20] t- tears and mourning. Oh, okay. Like, just like in tears- Oh, okay ... and crying, like, and praying to the Lord, like, "Forgive me, for I have sinned." Um, and that-

[01:07:28] KYLE: And do you know why the [01:07:30] conviction came so strong?

[01:07:31] JEREMY: The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was- Just- ... convicting me. It was like my brother, a, a saint, called me to repentance and faith in Christ, [01:07:40] and called me out of my sin, and I went in and I repented for my sins.

[01:07:45] Um, and right there, that's when I became a [01:07:50] Christian. That right there is the moment- Mm ... I, I... The next day I went and broke up with my girlfriend, and I decided to go [01:08:00] back, uh, to launch essentially the discipleship program the next year. '

[01:08:04] KYLE: Cause that's what you believed was- '

[01:08:06] JEREMY: Cause that's what I believed was-

[01:08:07] KYLE: Good and-

[01:08:07] JEREMY: that was good and right ...

[01:08:08] KYLE: even though you knew at that time, [01:08:10] would you have known already at that time? No, 'cause you weren't into anything. No. Okay. I

[01:08:12] JEREMY: wasn't into

[01:08:13] KYLE: anything. So then you're, okay, you break up- So- ... you're gonna be part of this program. Yeah. And then you start listening to what your family's listening to?

[01:08:18] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:08:19] KYLE: The John Piper stuff?

[01:08:19] JEREMY: Yeah, [01:08:20] John Piper, still spiritual stuff, so spiritual warfare stuff. Um, I was the type of guy, I could sit down and read a book for eight hours and finish the whole book in a day. Did the

[01:08:28] KYLE: alcohol stop right away? [01:08:30]

[01:08:30] JEREMY: So yeah, like I, uh, I changed, like changed my life. Like, um-

[01:08:37] KYLE: Like what about like-

[01:08:38] JEREMY: So it, no, the alcohol didn't stop right [01:08:40] away.

[01:08:40] KYLE: Okay.

[01:08:40] JEREMY: It didn't stop right away. Uh, that summer I went, like into the spring and summer, I went back to the river party, and I was still hanging out with my friends [01:08:50] and stuff like this. Yeah. Uh, but, um, what did start happening, um... Oh yeah, and back in my first year [01:09:00] of Launch, that's when I started tiling, so that's kind of funny you read, you read about a tile.

[01:09:04] Yeah. I tiled for nine years, so that's- Oh, wow. For who? Yeah. For, uh, De- [01:09:10] Dezeemen, uh, Dave Dezeemen. Okay. Uh, yeah, Dezeemo's Tile. Yeah. Okay. Just small, small tile guy. Yeah. Right? Yeah, in, uh, in Chilliwack here. Um, [01:09:20] so I met him through the first time I went through Launch, right? Oh, okay. Uh, before I quit.

[01:09:24] KYLE: Okay.

[01:09:24] JEREMY: And then he offered me a job, like, right after I quit, so I started to go and do tile.

[01:09:28] Yeah. Um, and then [01:09:30] I repented for my sins that New Year's Uh, and then I tiled for the rest of that time.

[01:09:36] KYLE: Okay

[01:09:36] JEREMY: Uh, to-

[01:09:37] KYLE: And so when you were moving from your sins, you said you, like, you kept [01:09:40] drinking and, a, a little bit and going back to river parties a little bit. Like, but what, what started, what was shifting?

[01:09:44] Like, did you start reading your Bible a lot and like- Yes ... like what was happening- Yes ... in your heart and your mind and-

[01:09:49] JEREMY: [01:09:50] Yeah ...

[01:09:50] KYLE: what were you discovering and-

[01:09:51] JEREMY: So I started praying.

[01:09:53] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:09:53] JEREMY: Right? I do this now- Why? ... because, um, I would s- essentially start praying, but then I [01:10:00] would go into the prayer closet- Yeah ... in the dark room, and I would, um, sit there in silence waiting for a voice and- Okay

[01:10:09] waiting [01:10:10] for the Lord to speak to me, 'cause this is, you know, what you're supposed to do is, like, talk with the Lord and listen for voices. Um, so I did that half hour a day for- [01:10:20] Wow ... for months. And- You

[01:10:21] KYLE: are an all-in individual- Yes ... no matter what it is.

[01:10:23] JEREMY: Yes. Yes, it was. And so I was doing this, and I [01:10:30] started going up on stage at church and prophesying over the church.

[01:10:35] KYLE: Oh, wow.

[01:10:35] JEREMY: Yeah, and, like, giving prophetic words.

[01:10:38] KYLE: And this is as a [01:10:40] genuine Christian now- ... that has given your life to Christ- Mm-hmm ... and you believe you're doing the right thing here and- Yeah ... okay.

[01:10:45] JEREMY: In the charismatic movement, right? Um, and so my half hour of [01:10:50] silence, I would hear voices, and I would actually talk to these voices, and I would see figures in the room of light, and [01:11:00] I would talk with them.

[01:11:01] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:11:01] JEREMY: And, um, then I would go, and I would proclaim the word of the Lord to people and prophesy and bring them to [01:11:10] tears. Like, the, the prophetic word- the prophetic words were accurate. That's the thing. It wasn't just, like, it wasn't just like, "Ooh, oh, it's like, that wasn't [01:11:20] accurate. Nice try." Yeah. It was like, no, tear-you-down accurate, right?

[01:11:25] Very demonic. I look back, and I'm like, very demonic. [01:11:30] Um-

[01:11:30] KYLE: Tear you down? What do you mean? Like, you would just,

[01:11:32] JEREMY: like, spit s- Like, like they would go into tears. Like, "You're so accurate. This actually happened in my life. This, I resonate with this word." Yeah. [01:11:40] Like, "This is real

[01:11:41] KYLE: to me." And would it be, would it be- Yeah

[01:11:42] to encourage people, or would it be to, like, like, to frighten people? Or, like, what would be, like, what would people walk away with?

[01:11:49] JEREMY: [01:11:50] Uh, encourage people. Um, and, like, you know, uh, the Lord's gonna prosper you, or, like, you felt like this in the past, [01:12:00] and, you know, the Lord wants to say, like, you know, that's not gonna happen again.

[01:12:04] And, and, uh, um, essentially stuff like that. Okay. Right? Like, pinpointed [01:12:10] at the person. Okay. Like, looking at you. And, um, I also attribute it to, like, mentalist as well. So, like, I, you know, some people can just, like, know what you're thinking. Like, [01:12:20] that's what's practiced- Mm ... and praised in the charismatic church.

[01:12:24] Um, so if you can do that- called you're a prophet.

[01:12:28] KYLE: Yeah, yeah.

[01:12:28] JEREMY: Wow,

[01:12:29] KYLE: holy- They put you on

[01:12:29] JEREMY: stage. [01:12:30] Yeah, you're- put you on stage, right? Yeah. And s- oh, sorry. Uh, and then-

[01:12:33] KYLE: So that's what you did. You were- started going on stage and do the stuff. You're part of this- Yeah ... discipleship program.

[01:12:36] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:12:37] KYLE: And you're reading Piper, John Piper stuff- Yeah, John Piper stuff

[01:12:39] in [01:12:40] the Bible, praying.

[01:12:40] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:12:41] KYLE: Okay.

[01:12:41] JEREMY: Yeah. And then I would speak in tongues over people- Yeah ... and, and I became like, um, uh, highly... [01:12:50] Like I would, uh, like I had the pastor come to me and be like, "What do you wanna do in your next... You know, where do you see- Yeah ... yourself going?" And of course, I wanted to go into ministry, and I still do, [01:13:00] um, in a whole different, in a whole different way now.

[01:13:04] Um, uh, but anyways, yeah, I, I always had c- the call of ministry. Like, I [01:13:10] wanted to go into ministry. I wanted to be a pastor. I wanted to preach the gospel and do this. Um, and essentially, you know, I became, you know, [01:13:20] like the prophetic. I had... So I was in a house, um, and we oh, this is a weird story. You're gonna find this weird.

[01:13:27] Um, so I was in this house, and we were [01:13:30] going around at the table prophesying over each other, right? And of course, I had this gift because I was practicing demonic things, and I was getting [01:13:40] good at them. And so we'd go- More,

[01:13:42] KYLE: more so than your other, uh, other people in the family?

[01:13:43] JEREMY: Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, big time.

[01:13:44] Like, yeah. Oh, yeah, big time. And I would go around, and I would like prophesy, and it was like, holy... [01:13:50] Like, and then we'd went into a group in the living room, and, you know, I'd prophesy, and one guy was like, "That's exactly, like that's exactly me." Mm. Like 100, like [01:14:00] 100%. Yeah. And so at the end of it, we were getting up to leave, and they all gathered around me to lay their hands on me to pray for, pray [01:14:10] for me.

[01:14:10] Um, and this one lady who's heavily influenced by Bethel, uh, so Bethel, she went to the school- Mm ... in Bethel and everything, she [01:14:20] got around me, and her husband put h- his hand on my stomach, and she put her hand on his stomach and started yelling, "Fire, babies." Like, "Fire, [01:14:30] babies. Fire, babies." Like, what is going on?

[01:14:33] It was the weirdest thing. Like, still to this day, I'm like, "What? What the heck happened?" At

[01:14:39] KYLE: least [01:14:40] pretend-

[01:14:40] JEREMY: Yeah ... better. It's like the biggest meme now is like, "Fire, babies." It's a meme? Fi- well, I made it a meme- Oh ... 'cause it happened to me. I'm like, "Fire, babies." All right. It's[01:14:50]

[01:14:50] just like how crazy it is.

[01:14:52] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:14:52] JEREMY: Right? Like, what does that even mean? I assume it meant like my children are gonna be on fire, baby. [01:15:00] Like, what is going on? But it was the weirdest experience. Uh, but-

[01:15:05] KYLE: But as you're doing all this prophetic stuff and- Yeah ... this all happening- Yeah ... are you conscious to be like, "Okay, [01:15:10] this is, this is not a normal one"?

[01:15:12] Uh, like the fire babies thing-

[01:15:14] JEREMY: Yeah,

[01:15:14] KYLE: because- Compared to everything else?

[01:15:15] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:15:16] KYLE: Everything else was normal, but that part wasn't?

[01:15:18] JEREMY: Yeah, that part wasn't. Oh,

[01:15:19] KYLE: okay.

[01:15:19] JEREMY: Yeah, [01:15:20] 'cause it was just so out there. Okay. It was just so out there,

[01:15:23] KYLE: right? That was another, like a whole other level of out there.

[01:15:25] JEREMY: Yeah, a whole other level- Okay

[01:15:26] of like, this is ridiculous. Yeah. It, this isn't [01:15:30] prophetic, right? I know, like at that point I knew pro- like I would prophesy over people and it would actually hit people- Mm ... and this was just like contrived-

[01:15:39] KYLE: Yeah, this was the [01:15:40] fake stuff.

[01:15:40] JEREMY: This wasn't even- Yeah, this was the fake stuff. Yeah. Like fire babies.

[01:15:44] Yeah, this was the fake stuff, yeah. Oh my goodness. Still to this day.

[01:15:49] KYLE: Okay, [01:15:50] so-

[01:15:50] JEREMY: Yeah, it's so funny.

[01:15:51] KYLE: So fast-forward- Mm-hmm ... how did you get into, like leaving the church, uh, City Life?

[01:15:57] JEREMY: City Life, yeah.

[01:15:58] KYLE: Uh, at like the pa- that, that [01:16:00] whole movement. COVID. Okay.

[01:16:01] JEREMY: Yeah. So I met Julianne-

[01:16:04] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:16:04] JEREMY: in that- In the program ... in that program, and our last year, like at the end of my intern year, [01:16:10] um, the, the leaders of that cult, um, put us together.

[01:16:15] So she, they put the bug in Julianne's ear, and then, you [01:16:20] know, put the bug in my ear, uh, about that, and then me and Julianne were like, "Okay." And then they, they basically at the end of the summer, in the summer I [01:16:30] asked Julianne out. We went and did a 5K run together. It was fun. And then I asked her out after that, and she almost put me in the friend zone.

[01:16:37] Yeah. And she was like, "Well, maybe we could just, [01:16:40] you know, hang out." And I'm like, "Nope. If we're gonna do this, it's we're going to marriage." Yeah. And I was like, fir- like asking her out, I'm like, "If we're gonna go out- [01:16:50]

[01:16:50] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:16:50] JEREMY: we are going to court as in- Yeah ... and we're gonna get married. So it's either we don't do this at all-

[01:16:56] KYLE: Yeah

[01:16:56] JEREMY: or we do do this- Yeah ... and we go to marriage." Like I used the [01:17:00] word marriage, like didn't scare her, and then she's like, "Okay, well, yes, I'll go out with you." And so, uh, um, the leaders of the [01:17:10] cult, uh, so we got eng- we got, um, started dating that summer-

[01:17:16] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:17:16] JEREMY: after, and then we, uh, got [01:17:20] engaged that Christmas. And then- And

[01:17:21] KYLE: when you had already left the-

[01:17:23] JEREMY: Yeah, and that was 2019.

[01:17:24] So

[01:17:25] KYLE: what made you leave- Yeah ... the-

[01:17:27] JEREMY: Oh, what made us, what made me leave that church? [01:17:30] Um, COVID. COVID made me leave City Life, so. So it wasn't

[01:17:33] KYLE: conviction of the stuff happening with COVID, you shut the

[01:17:36] JEREMY: church down? It was starting. Okay. It was like we, uh, so [01:17:40] that fall-

[01:17:41] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:17:42] JEREMY: right, when we were dating, we had the leaders of the cult start to do our marital [01:17:50] counseling, and at this point we saw how manipulative it was- Yeah

[01:17:54] right, and how messed up it is, um, that we just separated from them. Like- Okay ... the, [01:18:00] like we probably did two sessions then it was like, "No."

[01:18:02] KYLE: No.

[01:18:03] JEREMY: We're like, I'm tearing up, she's crying, like we're done here. And I'm like, "This is ridiculous." Like

[01:18:07] KYLE: what were they saying?

[01:18:08] JEREMY: Um, so- [01:18:10] They thought they knew everything.

[01:18:13] They thought they knew, like, Julianne like the back of their hand, and they knew me like the back of their hand, and it was [01:18:20] just like, um Like I wasn't good enough for Julie type thing, and I need to-

[01:18:28] KYLE: Do better ...

[01:18:29] JEREMY: yeah, do [01:18:30] better and stuff like this, and like, you know, I need to cater to her and her... Right? It was like, it was like opposite of the patriarchy.

[01:18:38] I'm a patriar- I'm patriarchal. Yeah. [01:18:40] Um, anyways, but it was like that, and it was just mani- and we left- Okay ... essentially, and I, I, I, like, basically it was like, "We're not doing this anymore."

[01:18:49] KYLE: Uh. "[01:18:50]

[01:18:50] JEREMY: We're

[01:18:50] KYLE: done." So COVID happens.

[01:18:51] JEREMY: Yeah, COVID happens. We get married March 20th.

[01:18:55] KYLE: And when do you get, like- Yeah ... reformed convictions?

[01:18:57] Like, you're listening to Piper for how, like the last two years. Oh, like

[01:18:59] JEREMY: this [01:19:00] whole time.

[01:19:00] KYLE: And so what are you learning- Yeah ... through all that, like, about the reformed- Yeah ... convictions that were different from what you were, you grew up with?

[01:19:05] JEREMY: Oh, just the watered-down preaching of the charismatic church, just [01:19:10] like try Jesus out.

[01:19:11] At this point I was still a part of the- Okay,

[01:19:12] KYLE: well not, not, not so much what would you find wrong about what you grew up with, but what did you find right about what you found? Like, what was the... [01:19:20] What did you resonate with with that?

[01:19:21] JEREMY: With John Piper?

[01:19:22] KYLE: Yeah, like, and then what he was teaching. Right. What part of his message did you resonate with, or like that you- The

[01:19:27] JEREMY: suffering.

[01:19:28] Like, the joy in [01:19:30] suffering. Okay. Enjoying God forever, even in your suffering. Okay. Right? And so a big push in these churches, in the charismatic churches is like- And

[01:19:37] KYLE: why did that resonate with you? Yeah. So I, I don't, I, I, [01:19:40] I don't wanna worry about the word ca- charismatic church right now- Okay,

[01:19:42] JEREMY: okay, okay

[01:19:42] KYLE: what they did. So like

[01:19:42] JEREMY: what did- Why did it resonate with me?

[01:19:44] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:19:45] JEREMY: Yeah. Um.[01:19:50]

[01:19:50] Because I found it to be true. Okay. And I think that, like, I've always been very, like, logical-minded. Like, if it's [01:20:00] true, I want to believe it. Like, it's, uh, I don't want a f- a lie- Mm ... essentially. And so the way he exegeted the [01:20:10] Bible and the scriptures is like, I... It's true. Like, this is true, and that, that's part of the reason I'm infant baptism now.

[01:20:18] KYLE: Okay, so it wasn't- Um, yeah ... part of your [01:20:20] experience necessarily that you found that you could be, Christ could be enough in suffering. It was more that it was just factually true that made you resonate with it.

[01:20:28] JEREMY: Factually, yeah, and, like, I [01:20:30] wasn't suffering.

[01:20:31] KYLE: Mm.

[01:20:31] JEREMY: Right? It wasn't like, oh, I'm suffering and I resonate with this.

[01:20:34] It was just like the emot- The,

[01:20:36] KYLE: the opposite of the prosperity, God's just gonna make you more happy, that [01:20:40] Jesus was the prize, that Jesus-

[01:20:41] JEREMY: Yeah ...

[01:20:41] KYLE: Jesus is the-

[01:20:43] JEREMY: Is the rock ...

[01:20:44] KYLE: is the rock that makes you happy. Is the rock. It's not any of his gifts or-

[01:20:47] JEREMY: Yeah. And, like, the passion in John [01:20:50] Piper. Mm. Like, just to love God and enjoy him forever and, like, to be, um, so passionate about it.

[01:20:57] And it wasn't even the passion. It was like, this is [01:21:00] actually true, and you need to enjoy God forever, and essentially, um Uh, that's what, that's... It was just [01:21:10] true. Mm. And it was like I, I can't deny it. Mm. Right? And so if this is true, well then this necessarily, [01:21:20] you know, like this is water- this isn't true. Mm.

[01:21:22] Like you're not actually interpreting the Bible properly, right?

[01:21:26] KYLE: And so- One, one of the biggest, I think, things I got from him was that our [01:21:30] joy in God's glory- Mm-hmm ... or our happiness in God's glory are not at odds with each other.

[01:21:34] JEREMY: Right.

[01:21:35] KYLE: It's at the- it's where they meet. Yeah. It's when it's we are most happy or we are most joyful in him.

[01:21:39] JEREMY: 100%.

[01:21:39] KYLE: [01:21:40] And I was like, kinda grew up thinking you could never be happy and be a Christian.

[01:21:44] JEREMY: Right.

[01:21:44] KYLE: When ironically it's if you're a Christian- Mm-hmm ... that's happy in God, you will be the most [01:21:50] happy-

[01:21:50] JEREMY: Right ...

[01:21:50] KYLE: person ever.

[01:21:51] JEREMY: 100%.

[01:21:52] KYLE: Um- Yeah ... and yeah, ultimately enjoy, enjoy it forever.

[01:21:55] JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:55] KYLE: Anyways, okay. Yeah. So you l- you're doing the John Piper, uh, stuff.

[01:21:58] You- Mm ... leave the church through COVID, you get [01:22:00] married, and you s- like you-

[01:22:02] JEREMY: Yeah, we got married March 20th of, uh, 2020.

[01:22:05] KYLE: Okay,

[01:22:06] JEREMY: yeah. So like- COVID wedding ... next day everything shut down.

[01:22:09] KYLE: Okay.

[01:22:09] JEREMY: Yeah, [01:22:10] everything shut down, and the only reason we got married March 20th is 'cause my parents were like, "The end is coming."

[01:22:16] Like the- Oh, they still believe that? ... martial law is coming and like COVID's coming. They [01:22:20] saw it a while away, so they stocked up on toilet paper. They, they knew, they, they knew how to look for times. Uh-huh. Like the signs of the times type thing. And your

[01:22:28] KYLE: brother too?

[01:22:28] JEREMY: Yeah. Oh, yeah, my brother too. [01:22:30] So they all moved onto a boat, and were gonna take that 70-foot seiner.

[01:22:34] So it was a converted seiner into a houseboat. They were gonna go up the [01:22:40] coast with it, running away from COVID, the end of the world, essentially. Um, I'm not sure if they would say the end of the world, but they saw COVID from a mile away. Of course, let's [01:22:50] sell everything, move onto a boat, and move. And you

[01:22:52] KYLE: were like, "I'm married."

[01:22:53] JEREMY: And I was like, "I am not doing this." Mm. Me and Julianne will not... Like at this point it was more like I had been going through [01:23:00] the discipleship program. They didn't, you know, necessarily agree with me going through. I was doing my own thing at this point.

[01:23:05] KYLE: Okay.

[01:23:05] JEREMY: Right? And so I would live in the same house with them at Berkeley.

[01:23:09] Um- [01:23:10] Berkeley Street, and we lived there, me, my brother, my sis-

[01:23:14] KYLE: But you got married on March 20th and then-

[01:23:16] JEREMY: March 20th in the living room.

[01:23:18] KYLE: And they left the next day [01:23:20] to go to this boat?

[01:23:20] JEREMY: They were going to leave the next day. Okay. We helped them move the next day-

[01:23:24] KYLE: Okay ...

[01:23:25] JEREMY: onto a boat in Richmond.

[01:23:26] KYLE: Okay. So you're willing to help but you're not going with?

[01:23:28] JEREMY: Yeah, I'm not going with, but [01:23:30] I'll help you move onto the boat. So my honeymoon, right? And so, like, my next day after my wedding in a living room with an officiary, right? Um, uh, [01:23:40] we help them move onto the boat.

[01:23:41] KYLE: Okay.

[01:23:42] JEREMY: And essentially, uh, they never leave. Okay. They never went up the coast, right? The reason we got married was [01:23:50] that the day before they left is so they would be at our wedding.

[01:23:52] KYLE: Okay,

[01:23:53] JEREMY: yeah. Right? But they never ended up leaving.

[01:23:55] KYLE: Okay.

[01:23:55] JEREMY: Um, for the boat, I guess, wasn't ready, or who knows why they [01:24:00] didn't leave. Uh, but they never actually went up the coast. Okay. So we saw them the next week and the week after that, and, like, COVID hit and everything shut down, and our honeymoon was [01:24:10] in that house where we got married on Berkeley Street.

[01:24:13] Um- Uh, and at this point- '

[01:24:16] KYLE: Cause everyone else was gone in the boat.

[01:24:18] JEREMY: Everyone moved to the boat. Yeah, so [01:24:20] my brother- Okay, yeah ... and my parents and my sister and her two kids- Okay ... moved to the boat. Um, and I stayed in Berkeley. Yeah. So wild. It was wild. I know, [01:24:30] it is, it's wild, right? It's so wild. Yeah. And, uh, it's the Ryan way.

[01:24:33] Yeah. That's what we say. Yeah. It's the Ryan way, yeah, to do this type

[01:24:36] KYLE: of thing. But you're changing the Ryan way to be your own definition. Oh,

[01:24:38] JEREMY: I'm changing it. Oh, it's changed. [01:24:40] Yeah. Okay. I'm changing that.

[01:24:40] KYLE: Okay. So you get married and you're- Yep ... um, not going to church 'cause COVID shuts everything down. Yeah, it

[01:24:44] JEREMY: shuts down-

[01:24:45] KYLE: You're more-

[01:24:46] city

[01:24:46] JEREMY: life.

[01:24:46] KYLE: Yeah ... more and more convicted on Reformed convictions.

[01:24:48] JEREMY: Oh yeah, big time. And

[01:24:49] KYLE: learning lots [01:24:50] about that.

[01:24:50] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:24:51] KYLE: And then you start going to church somewhere, or you find-

[01:24:53] JEREMY: Yeah, so three months we were trapped in our house.

[01:24:56] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:24:56] JEREMY: Like, from COVID. Like, I would, I was stopped tiling at this point too- Yeah

[01:24:59] 'cause [01:25:00] everything's shut down. Um, and my wife was very not Reformed, so she was, like, Arminian, so she didn't believe in the, in the, [01:25:10] um, uh, predestination of God. Okay.

[01:25:12] KYLE: But you still got married. You guys knew you were very different- We

[01:25:13] JEREMY: got married and- ...

[01:25:15] KYLE: very different views on this?

[01:25:15] JEREMY: Yeah. Yeah, we

[01:25:16] KYLE: knew. Or was it a no conflict thing, you just didn't talk about it?

[01:25:18] JEREMY: No, we talked about it. Okay. We [01:25:20] argued about it in a car. She got into tears. And then through that COVID experience, she started learning, uh, Reformed theology [01:25:30] from, like, um, Doug Wilson and, like-

[01:25:32] KYLE: Oh, wow ...

[01:25:33] JEREMY: you know, different Reformed people. And so she could- Are you a

[01:25:36] KYLE: big Doug Wilson guy?

[01:25:38] JEREMY: I like Doug Wilson.

[01:25:39] Right. I don't agree [01:25:40] with his paedo, uh, communion, but I, you know, um, I agree with his, uh, uh, a lot of his views.

[01:25:46] KYLE: Okay.

[01:25:46] JEREMY: Um, uh, but so she starts [01:25:50] learning predestination 'cause I'm br- And she sees it to be true, so she's now, like, super Reformed, just like me. Um, and so during that [01:26:00] time it was very much she came to the realization of the truth in the, in, in Reformed doctrine, the biblical doctrine, let's say that.

[01:26:09] [01:26:10] Um, doesn't necessarily have to be Reformed, but I would say it's the closest. Yeah. But, uh, essentially she came convicted of that, and then she was the one who was like, "We [01:26:20] need to go back to church. We need to find a church. You're the head of our family, you need to find a church." And I'm still on this train as like, "I don't need a church to be a Christian."

[01:26:29] Mm. "I don't need [01:26:30] to go to church to be a Christian." And so this, this contention builds, right? And then we end up going to Grace Fellowship Uh, [01:26:40] they met in the barn, and then after they met in Seventh Day Adventist Church on the Sundays. Uh, we started going there, and I'm still, I'm still on the [01:26:50] John Piper train, right?

[01:26:51] They're on the John MacArthur train, which they didn't believe in the gifts, uh, and I still believed in the gifts, right?

[01:26:57] KYLE: And John Piper would believe in the gifts somewhat, right?

[01:26:59] JEREMY: He's- He [01:27:00] does. Yeah. No, he, he's full into the gifts. Okay. Not into the, like-

[01:27:03] KYLE: Not the Pentecostal way.

[01:27:05] JEREMY: Uh, almost the Pentecostal way.

[01:27:07] It's very similar. He beli- he would believe in [01:27:10] prophecy, like you could prophesy over people. Yeah, yeah, but

[01:27:11] KYLE: not, but not, like, the stuff that you would've been doing in front of church, like-

[01:27:15] JEREMY: No, like, yeah, the music in the background and the- The- ... prophesying over the congregation. Yeah, like, no, like there's- It's none of that.

[01:27:19] No ... there's [01:27:20] le- there's

[01:27:21] KYLE: very different levels. Yeah. Yeah, it's different levels. Yeah. I wanna clari- clarify that. Like-

[01:27:24] JEREMY: Yeah, it's different levels ...

[01:27:25] KYLE: he's, his view is very tame.

[01:27:26] JEREMY: It's true. It's true. Very- It's tame in comparison to- Very tame ... like [01:27:30] Bethel or Evel- uh, r- uh, Elevation Church. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[01:27:34] Um, so he's definitely tame

[01:27:36] KYLE: in

[01:27:36] JEREMY: comparison.

[01:27:36] KYLE: Okay. But you're going to the, this- Yeah ... uh, MacArthur [01:27:40] Somewhat church, for lack

[01:27:40] JEREMY: of better words

[01:27:40] KYLE: Yeah,

[01:27:40] JEREMY: whatever the church. Yeah. So dispensational, uh, end times, very literal revelation, and, uh, you know, I would sit there and I [01:27:50] would cringe a little bit because I didn't believe in, like, you know, the, um-

[01:27:53] KYLE: You had stopped believing all that stuff already then

[01:27:56] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:27:56] No, no, no, you said you did So at that church, at that church, that's [01:28:00] where I came to the cessationist- Ooh ... realization that what I actually believed and where the gifts actually came from in the past in our [01:28:10] modern society is not the gifts that were there. They came from, uh, you know, um, uh, Satan, Satan, Satanists- Yeah

[01:28:17] that essentially that would pr- you [01:28:20] know, propel these things, and then the church picked them up. And so it didn't come from a good spot, the g- the gifts in our, in our... So I realized that, and then [01:28:30] I started thinking about it, and, like, reading the Bible, and, like, getting the context for what that was. And then I had the thought back to when I was sitting there reading that [01:28:40] book, and the demonic friend comes over and he whispers in my ear, "I can do that, too."

[01:28:45] I'm like, "Holy sh- oh, my goodness." And I had a lot of oppression, [01:28:50] um, as well, I believe. I d- I don't know. It's, it's pretty blurry. But anyways, I started-- I, I had a revelation, and I was like, the, like, [01:29:00] all the reformers, like, all the biblical guys who, like, pioneered, they were cessationists. Like- Yeah ... they had a fundamental understanding of the Bible.

[01:29:09] So I [01:29:10] got the fundamental, like, I'm very logical. If it's true, it's true. It's like, let's- Yeah ... it's in the Bible. So I started learning about that, and I'm like, "I'm a cessationist." You're either making [01:29:20] it up or it's demonic- Yeah ... because of that experience I had, right? Yeah. And I was practicing demonic things.

[01:29:26] I was going in and, and, uh, um, [01:29:30] practicing. So yeah, so back to after I was saved, I had a vision.

[01:29:35] KYLE: Had you at that time already- Yeah ... like, you went from-

[01:29:37] JEREMY: Mm-hmm ...

[01:29:37] KYLE: going, uh, doing the stuff in the stages at [01:29:40] this- Yeah ... very Pentecostal place to- Mm-hmm ... still being a sensationalist.

[01:29:45] JEREMY: No, still being a continuationist.

[01:29:46] Continuationist-

[01:29:47] KYLE: Yeah, continuation ... up until that point. But had you gone- Yeah ... down in your [01:29:50] view of it because you had been influenced by these reformers, or were you still prophesying over people up until that point, and-

[01:29:55] JEREMY: So- ...

[01:29:56] KYLE: doing every, all that stuff?

[01:29:57] JEREMY: The prophesying over people was, [01:30:00] like, very cultural in that.

[01:30:01] Yeah. Right? So when I left that, I still believed I could hear from God. I had the gift of prophecy.

[01:30:07] KYLE: Okay.

[01:30:07] JEREMY: Right? I would pray and I would hear voices. There was no avenue to do

[01:30:09] KYLE: it

[01:30:09] JEREMY: [01:30:10] because- There was no avenue to do that. Oh, okay. There was no one to prophesy over, right?

[01:30:12] KYLE: Well, your family.

[01:30:13] JEREMY: Well, they weren't really around 'cause they moved to a boat.

[01:30:16] KYLE: Oh, okay.

[01:30:16] JEREMY: Right? And so they were in Richmond, and then I was just there with my wife.

[01:30:19] KYLE: Okay. [01:30:20]

[01:30:20] JEREMY: Right? And then at that point, she, you know, became predestination and learned about the doctrines

[01:30:27] KYLE: Okay. So you don't believe in the gifts anymore, [01:30:30] and then-

[01:30:30] JEREMY: No ...

[01:30:30] KYLE: what's next?

[01:30:31] JEREMY: So yeah, John MacArthur Church, essentially learn about cessationist.

[01:30:35] And then so while I was tiling, I, uh, [01:30:40] I found this guy through... We had started listening to, um, uh, Jeff Durbin. Okay. So from Apologia Studios, and [01:30:50] they had Gregory Bahnsen, uh, which was a, a pupil of Van Til. And so Van Til was, uh, a great guy, um, [01:31:00] great man. He, uh, basically pioneered the presuppositional, uh, apologetics.

[01:31:06] And so- Dude,

[01:31:06] KYLE: that's like Chinese right now.

[01:31:09] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:31:09] KYLE: What [01:31:10] is that?

[01:31:10] JEREMY: Yeah, so presuppositional apologetics, you have two, two views. You have the evidentialist apologetics. So evidentialist is like, you [01:31:20] know, look at all the evidences, and Jesus died on the cross, so therefore you should believe. Yeah. Right? Well, I don't find that argument to be convincing at all, but the presuppositional [01:31:30] argument is like, you unbeliever live by the Bible, yet you deny it.

[01:31:36] KYLE: Mm.

[01:31:36] JEREMY: And yet, and yet you live it. You're a, you're a walking [01:31:40] contradiction, and I'm gonna point that out. So like- And

[01:31:42] KYLE: how so?

[01:31:43] JEREMY: So, like, you can, um, essentially how Paul did it in the, [01:31:50] um-

[01:31:50] KYLE: Mars

[01:31:50] JEREMY: Hill? Uh, no, Paul the Apostle.

[01:31:53] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:31:54] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah. On

[01:31:54] KYLE: Mars Hill at the Acropolis.

[01:31:55] JEREMY: Yeah, Ad- Adropolis, right? He was like, "Look at all these unknown [01:32:00] gods," right?

[01:32:00] "Well, there's one unknown God, and I proclaim him to you." Hmm. Right? Your... You know, you worship the very thing you don't know, you're walking... So the Lord Jesus [01:32:10] Christ is that unknown God that you- Yeah ... right? And you're, uh, you're essentially contradiction, um, and I'm pointing it out essentially.

[01:32:18] KYLE: Okay.

[01:32:19] JEREMY: And so- So

[01:32:19] KYLE: you switch [01:32:20] on that belief?

[01:32:20] JEREMY: So, so yeah. So- That, so I, I learned about Gregory Bahnsen

[01:32:26] KYLE: Yeah

[01:32:26] JEREMY: And I started listening to him 12 hours a [01:32:30] day Yeah Like, uh, PhD level. He was a professor- Yeah ... PhD in logic, and so he's very logical. Uh, um- Right

[01:32:39] KYLE: up your avenue

[01:32:39] JEREMY: [01:32:40] Yeah, right up my avenue. Loved it. Um, he-

[01:32:43] KYLE: So as long as I can make anything sound logical, you're in or what?

[01:32:45] JEREMY: No. No, no. Okay. It has to be biblical too. Okay. It has to be logically [01:32:50] biblical-

[01:32:50] KYLE: Okay ...

[01:32:50] JEREMY: um, and sound, and it has to be, um-

[01:32:54] KYLE: Okay. Anyway, you're listening to this guy for 12 hours a day. Yeah. I listened to this guy

[01:32:54] JEREMY: 12 hours a day for two and a half years.

[01:32:57] KYLE: Okay.

[01:32:58] JEREMY: Bro, two and a half years.

[01:32:59] KYLE: Oh, my [01:33:00] word.

[01:33:00] JEREMY: Yeah, so I went through the 80, 80, you know, um, uh, 80, uh, lectures that were an hour and a half on Revelation twice, like three [01:33:10] times, and then I would listen to the apologetics, like, four times over as well.

[01:33:14] I would just listen to him while I was tiling- Yeah ... 12 hours a day. Okay. And so, [01:33:20] yeah, so I did that for two and a half years while I was tiling, and so I came out of that.

[01:33:25] KYLE: Going to Grace Fellowship the whole time.

[01:33:26] JEREMY: Yeah, go- well- You were

[01:33:27] KYLE: right there ...

[01:33:27] JEREMY: it wasn't Grace Fellowship the full time. [01:33:30] Uh- Gregor Bonson had started before that, but I wasn't, you know, I hadn't learned about infant baptism [01:33:40] 'cause I was going through the apologetics- Hmm

[01:33:41] and through- Yeah ... like how to defend the faith. And then I started listening, and I started listening to like the reformed view of infant baptism, [01:33:50] and I went through all of Calvin's Institute, the Institutes of Calvin, and that's the only chapter that never changed in four different volumes. That chapter [01:34:00] never changed.

[01:34:00] Uh, everything else pretty much changed in, uh, in, uh, John Calvin's, um, Institutes. Uh, he had four- What do you mean changed? Changed, so like he would [01:34:10] go through revisions- Oh, okay ... and like more books would come out, and like- Oh, okay ... the, the copies would be revised by- Yeah ... Calvin, and he did this four times.

[01:34:18] Yeah. And the book on infant [01:34:20] baptism never changed.

[01:34:21] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:34:21] JEREMY: All four. And so-

[01:34:22] KYLE: Like I said, you're a Dutch Reformed

[01:34:25] JEREMY: pastor. Yeah.

[01:34:26] KYLE: They're gonna

[01:34:26] JEREMY: clip this. Yeah, go for it. I got a lot more where that comes from. [01:34:30] Um, so essentially I did this for two and a half years, and I still wanna go into ministry and, [01:34:40] um, I never graduated, so that's a little bit of a blocker.

[01:34:42] But anyways, so I did that, and then I was going to Grace Fellowship and I learned about infant baptism, and I'm like, "Well..." Uh, and I learned [01:34:50] about theonomy and postmillennialism and, you know- Yeah ... the, the evangelism of presuppositionalists. Well, I'm like, "Well, I can't... Well, we gotta get Cora baptized." Cora [01:35:00] was born at this point- Yeah

[01:35:01] a year old, um, and I was like, "We have to get her baptized." And so that was, "Okay, well we gotta find a church." Oh, I also learned [01:35:10] about the importance of a church, that if you don't go to church and you think, you know, you can be a Christian without a church, you're probably not saved because that's where the people of God are, and why would you despise...

[01:35:19] This was, this was Calvin's [01:35:20] argument.

[01:35:20] KYLE: Hmm.

[01:35:21] JEREMY: Like, if you don't go to church and you don't want to, you're probably not saved. Like, they go hand in hand. Yeah. So if you're a Christian out there right now and you're [01:35:30] like, "I can be a Christian without going to church," I'm like, "No, you can't," 'cause that's where the people of God are, and Jesus loves his bride, and you are to love his bride as well.

[01:35:39] Yeah. And you need to go [01:35:40] to church. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no matter what. If you think it's wrong or not, like go to church, right? People of God. But anyways, um, so I learned about [01:35:50] infant baptism and basically went to the, uh... I was very picky about the doctrine- Mm ... 'cause I was like listening to this PhD for-

[01:35:58] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:35:58] JEREMY: you know, two and a half years.

[01:35:59] So I [01:36:00] went to the Canadian Reformed Church And, uh, I sat there for one sermon and I cringed. Uh, this was the kind of the test of like what, what, where am I [01:36:10] gonna land? 'Cause I'm Presbyterian. I'm more... Gregor Bronson was Presbyterian. I'm more Presbyterian in my views. Um, and it was kind of like I went to the Canadian Reformed, it was like a bad [01:36:20] charismatic sermon.

[01:36:20] Uh, like everyone's saved and you're all beloved and- Mm ... you know, I'm like, "Ah, no, this isn't good." Uh, so I was like, "Okay, well, we can't do that." Well, I met a [01:36:30] guy at the Canadian Reformed, uh, he's like, uh, "Well, I'll take you to the Free Reformed. I'm gonna take you to the Free Reformed," like their doctrine is really good.

[01:36:38] 'Cause he was trying to become a pastor in the [01:36:40] Canadian Reformed Church as well, and, you know, they didn't like his style and he was more Presbyterian in his views as well. And so he's like, "I'm taking you to the Free Reformed for the afternoon service." So he, we went over [01:36:50] to his house for lunch. We went to the Free Reformed afternoon service.

[01:36:53] My wife went home, so it was just me and him. I sat there and it was a guest preacher. It wasn't Pastor Koopman. [01:37:00] Guest preacher preaching, and I was like-

[01:37:02] KYLE: Mm-hmm

[01:37:04] JEREMY: Ooh, I don't Okay I'm terrible with names. I'd see him, and I'd be like, "Oh yeah, I know you. Yeah, yeah." Uh, [01:37:10] but essentially he preached, and I'm like, "This is, this is the church."

[01:37:13] Mm. Right? And the hymns and the, um... I- I'm not a big f- like, I'm not a big believer in [01:37:20] psalter and hymns only. I think, like, get the drums and the guitar in there, like- Yeah ... right? As long as we're singing biblical, doctrinal things- Yeah ... like, let's go. But that's m- minor point. I'm like, the [01:37:30] doctrine, the preaching of the word, 'cause I know the f- the, the, you know, the three main marks of a church, right?

[01:37:36] And there it was. It was like, the okay, the doctrine's on [01:37:40] point. I don't have to sit here and cringe- Mm ... when I hear something, like, questionable. Mm. Even if it's, like, questionable and they say it, I'm like, "Ugh. Okay, that could mean [01:37:50] this, it could mean this, or it could mean that, and I sure hope it doesn't mean this because that's heresy."

[01:37:56] And so I sat there and I was like, "Okay, I didn't cringe." [01:38:00] Like, it- Yeah ... it was good. So that's where I decided to land, and then we became members of the church, and I'm leading the youth because I have- Cool ... I have a passion for it, and, [01:38:10] um, yeah.

[01:38:12] KYLE: And so what would you believe about baptism now? Like, do you believe you need to be a believer to baptize your kids?

[01:38:16] JEREMY: Uh, so yeah. So, so essentially this is the [01:38:20] part I prepared for this. Okay. For the infant baptism. So where, how I learned it, and it's, it's, it's as easy to get out of the [01:38:30] scriptures infant baptism-

[01:38:31] KYLE: Okay ...

[01:38:32] JEREMY: as it is the Trinity. Trinity you need three verses, right? Because in the beginning was the God. Yeah.

[01:38:39] Right? And then the Son, the [01:38:40] deity of Christ, and the Holy Spirit was in the beginning. You need around three, four verses to get the Trinity. Well, infant baptism or household baptism, you need [01:38:50] three, four verses, right? Five if you wanna go a little crazy with it, right? And so how I learned it was Abraham, Abrahamic covenant, [01:39:00] everlasting covenant, like keyword everlasting covenant.

[01:39:04] The sign of this covenant is circumcision, okay? And I will be God to you [01:39:10] and your descendants after you, and even to the sojourner who comes in your gate who decides to be a part of you is to be circumcised, okay? So that's [01:39:20] everlasting covenant. Don't change the word everlasting, please, because everlasting means, like, for everlasting to his descendants.

[01:39:28] Then you come over into [01:39:30] the New Testament And you have Christians are descendants of Abraham spiritually. Mm-hmm. Like, we are descendants of Abraham of the promise by [01:39:40] faith, right? Abraham was justified by faith.

[01:39:42] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:39:43] JEREMY: We're justified by faith. It says in three places, Romans and Galatians, that you are descendants of Abraham.

[01:39:49] [01:39:50] Okay, everlasting covenant, the sign was circumcision. You go into the New Testament, you're descendants of Abraham. Okay, well, where did the sign go? Okay, [01:40:00] well, now you have, um, Colossians 2:9, where it says, "Through the bap- through the circumcision made without hands, through the [01:40:10] baptism of water, buried with Christ," he links the two signs right there together.

[01:40:15] And so baptism is the sign of the covenant- Yeah ... [01:40:20] now, and so that answers the question, like, where the heck did the sign of the covenant go? Yeah. Or else it's an argument of silence. Well, Paul just lays it right out, uh, through Galatians and, [01:40:30] and descendants and okay. And now, okay, well, what about our children now?

[01:40:34] Because if the sign of the covenant was, you know, circumcision and now it's baptism in Colossians, [01:40:40] clearly makes that link, well, what about our children? Okay, well, it's a better covenant. It's a better covenant, so, you know, to the Jews, [01:40:50] well, your children aren't a part of it anymore, sorry. It's a better covenant, but your children are all ex-nate out of it.

[01:40:55] They're just diapers and vipers, as the Baptists would say. [01:41:00] Um, well, no, because now we got 1 Corinthians 7:11, where it's like, a ch- uh, 7:14, sorry. Uh, a, [01:41:10] a child of one believing parent, a descendant of Abraham, is declared holy. And so holy, right? What does that word mean? [01:41:20] Okay, well, let's go back to the Greek.

[01:41:21] It's literally the word used for a saint, a holy set apart. And so many John MacArthur people wanna change that [01:41:30] word, meaning, like, it's situational, right? Oh, they were born into a Ch- so they're more protected. Well, that's not what the Bible says. It says holy, and we have a very long [01:41:40] lineage of the sign of the covenant, right?

[01:41:43] And it clearly just put our kids into that, into that camp. And so... And then you have [01:41:50] Acts, where Peter says, or yeah, Peter sa- yeah, Peter in Acts, in his first sermon, he's like, "This promise is to you and to your children." Yeah. Clearly make it... [01:42:00] So four verses clear as day Yeah And I'm just sitting here, I'm like, "This is as easy as getting the Trinity out of the Bible."

[01:42:08] It doesn't say Trinity, [01:42:10] but you just doop, doop, doop, doop. Wow, okay. And from baptism, it's the sign of the covenant

[01:42:16] KYLE: And, and when you're listening to this guy, did you listen to other viewpoints as well or did you-

[01:42:19] JEREMY: Oh yeah, I came [01:42:20] from Baptists, right? So-

[01:42:21] KYLE: Yeah, but you- Yeah ... coming from Baptists- Mm-hmm ... versus like doing a deep dive for two and a half years into one guy's- Right

[01:42:27] teaching on it is- Yeah ... different.

[01:42:29] JEREMY: No, I d- but [01:42:30] I did the deep dive on the Baptist view. Okay. Right? And so because Gregory Bahnsen- Yeah ... is an apologist- Yeah ... right? He is, he, he does [01:42:40] justice to the other people's view.

[01:42:42] KYLE: Fair enough.

[01:42:43] JEREMY: Right? And so, um-

[01:42:45] KYLE: Well, I'm gonna ask if, if you- Oh yeah, go for it ... kids, so, um, um, you said it's, it's faith that [01:42:50] brings you into the new covenant, correct?

[01:42:51] JEREMY: Well, well into the invisible s- faith, like into the, um, uh, into salvation. Like I don't- Yeah, yeah ... proclaim [01:43:00] that- Yeah ... baptism is salvific.

[01:43:01] KYLE: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah. And so, but it's not your kid's faith, it's your faith.

[01:43:06] JEREMY: Right.

[01:43:07] KYLE: Mm-hmm. Okay. And so what benefit does it have to your kids? [01:43:10] To be baptized

[01:43:12] JEREMY: Well, to be baptized into the covenant.

[01:43:14] So it's the sign of the grace of God. So

[01:43:15] KYLE: what does the covenant give them? Like would they s- would you say your kids for sure going to heaven now?

[01:43:19] JEREMY: No. Oh. [01:43:20] Well, if the, if the child died, so in the catechism, right? Okay, if

[01:43:23] KYLE: they're becoming adults and- Right ... uh, uh, would you assume they're saved just because they're baptized or would they- So no.

[01:43:29] Okay.

[01:43:29] JEREMY: [01:43:30] Well, so because in, in the covenant of God-

[01:43:33] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:43:33] JEREMY: there is always a curse- Yeah ... of the covenant, and there is always a blessing of the covenant, right? And so with [01:43:40] any covenant in the Bible, right, you obey me, I'll bless your land. If you disobey me, I'm going to curse you and give you to the Babylonians.

[01:43:48] And so the [01:43:50] sign of the covenant is like you're, you're in the covenant of God. Um, and then, you know, that baptism should be taught, [01:44:00] like taught to that kid about that sign, and that would be a testimony against them. Like, "Hey, I put my sign and seal on you as a covenant and you denied me," like [01:44:10] that's just even more judgment, right?

[01:44:11] Uh, uh, in the New Testament says- So that's

[01:44:13] KYLE: why I would like to see your- Right ... the Canadian Reformed would, I, I would assume have gone the way of not denying it- [01:44:20] Right ... so hard and, and kind of having the feeling of everyone is saved because of that view.

[01:44:26] JEREMY: Right, and I would say that that's a wrong view of it.

[01:44:28] Okay.

[01:44:28] KYLE: Yeah. So what would your difference [01:44:30] be?

[01:44:30] JEREMY: So my difference be is that if they denied the faith when they're older-

[01:44:35] KYLE: And how would you deny it? "

[01:44:37] JEREMY: I don't believe in Jesus. Screw you mom and dad, I'm [01:44:40] leaving." Right?

[01:44:40] KYLE: Okay.

[01:44:41] JEREMY: And they like, if they deny Christ, well-

[01:44:43] KYLE: Okay ...

[01:44:43] JEREMY: you know, if you deny me in front of others, I will

[01:44:46] KYLE: deny you.

[01:44:46] And what if you, and what if you just say, just keep going to church and say, "Yeah, I, I, I [01:44:50] agree with mom and dad believe, and we do the stuff. I go to church and, uh, so I'm saved now"?

[01:44:55] JEREMY: Well, so the thing is, is like in that teaching of the parents, [01:45:00] right? It's the parents' duty to teach that kid about faith in Christ.

[01:45:05] But if they, if they're just like, if they're asked, [01:45:10] right? Like, do you... "Well, no, I just, I just do what my parents do." Well, okay. Well, I would say that that's- Hmm ... they're denying Christ in, in, right, in their- Yeah ... words and their d- in [01:45:20] their acts, right? And so if, but if they're... 'Cause if they're old enough that you can be like I can ask my, you know, four-year-old, "Do you love God?"

[01:45:28] Yeah. And she's like, "Yeah." [01:45:30] Right? And we don't treat our kids, even the Baptists don't treat our kids like they're unsaved. You get them to pray, right? Like, um, you know, pray before bed, right? Well, unbelievers [01:45:40] shouldn't... Like why are you praying, right? Um, and so, uh, the whole idea, um- Yeah, and so that's how [01:45:50] I came to the conviction of infant baptism is like that, that sign either condemns them more severely-

[01:45:57] KYLE: Yeah

[01:45:58] JEREMY: or it blesses them [01:46:00] greatly. Like, God set his love upon

[01:46:02] KYLE: them. What's... And what's the bl- the, what's the blessing though versus someone that is growing up in a Baptist church with Christian parents that love [01:46:10] Jesus and that are teaching him about faith and that it needs to be real? Like, what, what does he not have?

[01:46:17] JEREMY: Right. Well, he do- first off, [01:46:20] um, it, the-

[01:46:21] KYLE: Like, is he less likely to be saved?

[01:46:23] JEREMY: Well, no, I wouldn't say that.

[01:46:24] KYLE: Okay.

[01:46:24] JEREMY: I would say that it's the, it's the same thing. It's like, um, [01:46:30] um- We wanna be, you would, you would probably agree with me that we wanna be the most biblical possible. Yeah. Right? It's like we wanna [01:46:40] follow the Bible- Yeah

[01:46:40] the greatest possible, right? Um, someone can believe in the gifts and be saved, but doesn't mean it's, it's correct. Like, it's not the- Yes ... the best way forward. Yeah, yeah. [01:46:50] Right? And so the baptist, right, th- they believe in Christ. Yeah. They don't have every, you know, line of doctrine, right? And so they would [01:47:00]

[01:47:01] KYLE: I'm just curious for you- Yeah.

[01:47:01] Mm-hmm ... what's the benefit? Like if- Right. Okay. Yeah ... my, my, my kid being baptized or not baptized, I'm like I, I find no comfort in that. The only thing I'll ever find comfort [01:47:10] in, if he professes to- Right ... believe in Christ himself.

[01:47:13] JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

[01:47:13] KYLE: And if he dies one day and says, "Well, like, I got baptized though," a- and God's like, "Well, you didn't have faith though."

[01:47:18] Like- Right. Mm-hmm ... there's, there's, [01:47:20] there's an in and out. There's a black and white. So what's... Besides being faithful to, hey, this is what the bridge says, so we should just do it even though we might not fully understand it. Right. Which I think [01:47:30] there's definitely a lot of space for that because the Bible is endless.

[01:47:34] Um, but, um, what you're saying is like, I, I still don't understand, like, what [01:47:40] the, the, the

[01:47:41] JEREMY: benefit is. Right, what the benefit is. Yeah. Right? And so the, so the two views, right, is like baptism is based off [01:47:50] your confession of Christ, right? Um, which is, which is kinda like, okay, when, when would they be baptized?

[01:47:58] Like, when is the [01:48:00] year of, um-

[01:48:01] KYLE: Discretion ...

[01:48:02] JEREMY: of discretion, right? When is the year that they realize they live... My four-year-old professes Christ-

[01:48:08] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:48:09] JEREMY: and loves, she's been [01:48:10] professing Christ since two.

[01:48:11] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:48:11] JEREMY: She says, "I love Jesus." Well, she's, that's not the age of discretion. Yeah. So, uh, right there I find a, like, I'm like-

[01:48:18] KYLE: Gray area

[01:48:19] JEREMY: yeah, it [01:48:20] doesn't, right, it doesn't matter. It's like if j- my two-year-old's baptized, like let's go. Mm. They profess Christ. If it's based off the profession- Mm ... well, then we should be baptizing two-year-olds.

[01:48:29] KYLE: I understand. So you're [01:48:30] basically- Yeah ... a Baptist that believes that the years of discretion of are, "Hey, they're saying it now, let's baptize."

[01:48:36] JEREMY: No, I believe out of the womb, a [01:48:40] child- Yeah ... born to a believing parent.

[01:48:40] KYLE: But basically that's where they kinda meet almost.

[01:48:43] JEREMY: Well, d- no, I wouldn't

[01:48:44] KYLE: say- I kinda see where, I kinda see what you're saying though. Like- Yeah ... they're like, "They're gonna be brought up in this Christian home. We're gonna teach them to believe, [01:48:50] and so we're gonna baptize then."

[01:48:52] JEREMY: Right. So, but-

[01:48:54] KYLE: Like the jailer, I kinda under- like-

[01:48:55] JEREMY: I'm showing... Yeah, I'm trying to show the view of the Baptist, [01:49:00] right? Mm. Of like the year of discretion. That's arbitrary.

[01:49:03] KYLE: Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

[01:49:03] JEREMY: Like it, right, it doesn't mean anything. Like-

[01:49:06] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:49:06] JEREMY: right? It's, because that's not actually what baptism is about.

[01:49:09] It's [01:49:10] not about the confession of the person. It has always been the sign of God's grace towards the believer. Yeah. And so the benefit of [01:49:20] grace of God being shown in a physicali- in a physical way- Or any other way ... right, benefits the congregation. Mm. Right? Watching- [01:49:30] Yeah ... that covenant be applied, right? And it benefits the child that they are in the covenant of God through their family, and that that [01:49:40] family is to nurture and bring to remembrance the grace of God in that child's life, that the

[01:49:46] KYLE: God- The same benefit that I would give- Yeah

[01:49:49] to my s- kids though, right? [01:49:50] Like all those things that you just described are all things I'm doing with my kids, and I'm a Baptist

[01:49:55] JEREMY: But you don't, you don't have the same view of baptism as I do. [01:50:00] Like the, the Baptist view-

[01:50:02] KYLE: I understand that ... is different But I'm saying how you described what the benefits would be for a pedobaptist-

[01:50:07] JEREMY: Right

[01:50:07] KYLE: baptizing your infants-

[01:50:09] JEREMY: Mm-hmm ...

[01:50:09] KYLE: where they would [01:50:10] all like that they, you know, have all these, um, grow up in a Christian family, have like the nurture of their parents and- Right,

[01:50:16] JEREMY: exactly,

[01:50:17] KYLE: being- ... all these things. Like a Baptist would give all that-

[01:50:18] JEREMY: They're in the covenant ...

[01:50:19] KYLE: would give all [01:50:20] those benefits as well,

[01:50:21] JEREMY: right?

[01:50:22] Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, essentially. Yeah. Yeah, like you would... You raise your kids- Yeah ... to teach them about God, right? Okay. And to raise them. [01:50:30] As, as, um-

[01:50:31] KYLE: And w- And so, and so would your... Would you believe that your daughter, um, when she becomes adult, if she doesn't, um, believe [01:50:40] herself, like be- like isn't saved, would...

[01:50:42] Should, should she be able to baptize her kids?

[01:50:45] JEREMY: If she isn't saved?

[01:50:46] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:50:47] JEREMY: Um, well, is her husband saved?

[01:50:49] KYLE: No. [01:50:50]

[01:50:50] JEREMY: No. So no, they shouldn't be baptized. Okay. 'Cause they're not in the covenant.

[01:50:53] KYLE: Okay.

[01:50:53] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:50:54] KYLE: And so- Yeah ... so you do believe you need to be a believer to baptize your kids?

[01:50:57] JEREMY: A child of one believing parent-

[01:50:59] KYLE: [01:51:00] Yeah

[01:51:00] JEREMY: uh, is declared holy.

[01:51:02] KYLE: Okay.

[01:51:02] JEREMY: But if they're not believing, they're not descendants of Abraham.

[01:51:05] KYLE: Okay.

[01:51:05] JEREMY: Right? And so you have to be... The, the parent has to be in the [01:51:10] covenant of God, which is through faith. Yeah. And it always has been, right? Um, and we see that in Hebrews 11, right, with the hall of faith. Yeah, yeah.

[01:51:19] [01:51:20] It was never just works, right? You're justified by bulls and goats being slaughtered, right? Because in Hebrews it says, "The bull, the blood of bulls and goats never pleases the [01:51:30] Lord." That's right. Right? It was the, it was the looking forward-

[01:51:33] KYLE: The faith ...

[01:51:33] JEREMY: to, to... Right. Yes. It was the faith of the people-

[01:51:36] KYLE: Yeah

[01:51:36] JEREMY: always. Yes. And so, um, yeah. Okay. And so [01:51:40] baptism is a picture of the faith of God- Yeah,

[01:51:42] KYLE: yeah ...

[01:51:43] JEREMY: not the confession of the people. Yeah.

[01:51:44] KYLE: So you feel like I'm losing out on a, on, on a comfort of some sort? 'Cause I [01:51:50] still like as, as much as I'm trying to s- Mm-hmm ... seek to understand what you're trying to say- Right

[01:51:54] the benefit is I still don't understand the benefit to... Or not- maybe the [01:52:00] benefit's not even the right word, 'cause if it's just about like doing the right thing-

[01:52:03] JEREMY: Right

[01:52:05] KYLE: Um, like let's say assuming that's the case- Mm-hmm ... I still don't [01:52:10] understand the difference between a Baptist and a Paedo-Baptist on what, um, the difference is really in like how practically it [01:52:20] is like, you know, growing up in a Christian home, whatever.

[01:52:23] JEREMY: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so what I would say is that, um-

[01:52:29] KYLE: Except for I do [01:52:30] remember my dad saying to me when I was like 18, 19, I'd go out and party. Mm-hmm. He's like, "Remember you have a baptized forehead." Right. And, and I'd be like, like, "What difference does that make?" Like if I don't have faith [01:52:40] in Jesus, if I'm not chosen, then like- Mm-hmm

[01:52:41] like, you know. But, but it- Right ... um, in hindsight I can see that it was, "Hey, God has brought you up in a Christian home-"

[01:52:49] JEREMY: Mm-hmm ...

[01:52:49] KYLE: [01:52:50] and given you- Right ... and this was just a way of communicating that-

[01:52:53] JEREMY: Mm-hmm ...

[01:52:53] KYLE: with like saying, "Hey, you're baptized." But you could say that to the kid of a, you know, the wild child of a, [01:53:00] a Baptist.

[01:53:00] You could say, "Hey, remember that God has-" But- "... you know, br- raised you in a Christian home and you know the truth, and this is going against the gift that he gave you in this way."

[01:53:09] JEREMY: [01:53:10] Mm-hmm.

[01:53:10] KYLE: You know, there's not much of a difference.

[01:53:11] JEREMY: But there is because it, you weren't using the baptism. Like it wasn't, it wasn't like, "Hey-"

[01:53:17] KYLE: Oh, you're not sh- showing a covenant.

[01:53:19] JEREMY: Well, yeah. It's [01:53:20] like, it-- he, he was an unbeliever- Mm ... and so this is what we expect. Like his whole childhood, he wasn't a part of the covenant. Mm. Like he's not a covenant child. [01:53:30] He's, you know, he's a viper in a diaper as, uh, I think that guy passed away but, uh, um, uh, rest in peace. Uh, but yeah, a sermon from- Okay

[01:53:39] all these [01:53:40] Baptists, like they're just vipers in diapers, so you need to, you know- Amen ... teach them the gospel. And then when they profess, they should get baptized because- Exactly ... it's based off your profession. It's not based off the [01:53:50] promise of God to his people and to h- their children. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[01:53:53] Right? And so that's the fundamental difference. Very nice. Right? And so- And

[01:53:56] KYLE: so now you're... Uh, how long have you been of that conviction now? [01:54:00]

[01:54:00] JEREMY: Uh, two, three years. Okay. Almost

[01:54:02] KYLE: three

[01:54:02] JEREMY: years now, yeah.

[01:54:03] KYLE: Okay.

[01:54:03] JEREMY: Yeah. Three years I've been at the Free Reformeds, so. Okay. Okay. Uh, when I moved over to the Free Reformeds.

[01:54:08] KYLE: Yeah. Okay. And not doing [01:54:10] tiles anymore?

[01:54:10] JEREMY: Not doing tiles anymore, no. Okay. No.

[01:54:13] KYLE: Okay.

[01:54:13] JEREMY: Yeah. So, uh, yeah. And then so I did tile for nine years. Um, and [01:54:20] then two and a half years ago I became an entrepreneur, and so I started The Flooring Father. Okay. A, a premium tile and flooring installation company, and I started [01:54:30] trying to sub it out.

[01:54:31] KYLE: Okay.

[01:54:31] JEREMY: Right? And trying to build something- Yeah ... uh, entrepreneurial. And so, uh, that failed- Yeah ... miserably. Still trying to dig myself out of that [01:54:40] one. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, held a guy on too long. You know, payroll drained me. Yeah, don't hire too many people. It's like-

[01:54:47] KYLE: Would, would you have said it's conflict avoidance that, [01:54:50] um, caused that?

[01:54:52] JEREMY: Caused

[01:54:53] KYLE: It not to work out?

[01:54:54] JEREMY: No, it was just, um, not conflict avoidance. It was [01:55:00] more just like, "I wanna build this thing, and I'm gonna do everything I can to build this thing."

[01:55:05] KYLE: Okay.

[01:55:05] JEREMY: And then I- The

[01:55:06] KYLE: all-in mentality.

[01:55:07] JEREMY: Yeah, the all, uh, the all-in mentality, right? It's like I [01:55:10] gotta hire the people, gotta get this thing going, start bidding on things.

[01:55:13] Well, we didn't get a commercial job till eight months later, and so that whole eight months trying to bid on commercial [01:55:20] jobs. He was doing sales and, like, I was

[01:55:23] KYLE: trying to- Oh, he already hired someone to run

[01:55:23] JEREMY: Yeah, yeah. He was working with me before The Flooring Father, and then we started bidding. It kept getting slow, and I had to [01:55:30] fix this.

[01:55:30] So I was like, "Hey, we're gonna go commercial." And so I learned how to, you know, do drawings and, you know, uh, measure things and order materials, and [01:55:40] we didn't get anything. Mm. We just like, it j- and then we still just... I was working for a store, and then the store would go ups and downs, right? And then I wouldn't have work, and, like, [01:55:50] the financials was just...

[01:55:51] Like, I couldn't get out of the negatives. Yeah. I couldn't get out of the negatives, you know, fucking- Okay, so you

[01:55:55] KYLE: stopped doing that.

[01:55:57] JEREMY: So I stopped doing that. Um, so [01:56:00] at that same time when I started The Flooring Father, I was like, "Hey, Mom, let's start a bookkeeping company together," 'cause she was bookkeeping for 20, 25 years.

[01:56:09] And I [01:56:10] saw it, I'm like, "Okay." And then I read "The Millionaire, uh, Fast Lane," and it's all about subscription-based and doing the work up front to build the subscription. And so I [01:56:20] saw the bookkeeping company, and so we started that, MBC Canada Inc. Um, and that's still going. I'm still pioneering that. Um, and [01:56:30] then essentially that was a year and a half, two years ago, uh-

[01:56:34] KYLE: Yeah

[01:56:34] JEREMY: when The Flooring Father. Flooring Father shut down, and I-- The, the day I was emptying [01:56:40] out my truck to sell the truck for my Flooring Father, big cube van, right? Um, I get a call- So you

[01:56:46] KYLE: really l- literally got everything ready before you had the work [01:56:50] On the floor, on the flooring part there. Like, you got like, like the trucks, all, all the things.

[01:56:54] JEREMY: I was doing residential.

[01:56:55] KYLE: Okay.

[01:56:55] JEREMY: So I was tiling for nine years before that. Yeah, yeah. So I had all the tools already, [01:57:00] right? So- Oh, okay, you

[01:57:00] KYLE: had

[01:57:00] JEREMY: the tools. Yeah, so I was just starting to bid on jobs- Okay ... right, to put in quotes to- Yeah ... you know, draw the plans and stuff like that. Um, that failed and I [01:57:10] decided, okay, I'm gonna jump full in on MBC.

[01:57:13] KYLE: Yeah. '

[01:57:13] JEREMY: Cause that was kinda... Okay. And then I'm gonna grow that. This is my ticket out. I'm gonna get out of tiling. And the, the [01:57:20] day I emptied my van to put it for sale, right? I hadn't got a commercial job the whole time- Yeah ... and I had bid on so many. The d- I get a call from a [01:57:30] contractor and he's like, "You know, you put a bid on a job on a Tim Horton's in Vancouver.

[01:57:34] Do you, like-" You want it? "... do you wanna re-bid on it? Like, 'cause they wanna go through with it now." [01:57:40] And I was like-

[01:57:41] KYLE: Yep ... "

[01:57:41] JEREMY: I'm closed. I'm closed." And, uh, and I c- and I was like, "I, I'm not gonna lie to you and say, 'Yeah, I got everything and we all [01:57:50] just do it.'" Right? 'Cause I, I, at that point I had realized even subbing out work is a lot of work.

[01:57:56] Like, building a contracting company, you're still [01:58:00] liable, you still gotta drive out there. Like, something screws up, you're fixing it. So at that point I was like, "Nope, I, I'm not gonna do that," even though I could've used the money. It was like a $20,000 job, but if something went wrong- [01:58:10] Mm ... I'm freaking screwed.

[01:58:11] Like-

[01:58:12] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:58:12] JEREMY: literally being... So I knew the risk of it, so I said, "No, I'm closed." And then I got a computer, and I was starting-

[01:58:19] KYLE: So did... Yeah, did the [01:58:20] bookkeeping thing?

[01:58:20] JEREMY: I was starting to learn bookkeeping. Okay. So at first, it was the first four months I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna learn bookkeeping 'cause my mom needs help.

[01:58:27] She has a big client. I'm gonna help her bookkeep." [01:58:30] Yeah. Right? And so four months went by, I'm like, "I freaking hate this." I, like bookkeeping, I just do not like bookkeeping. And well, we were like, "Okay, well, we need someone to [01:58:40] grow the company. Like, we need to get clients," and so that's where I came in. And so I started, uh, last, it's been around a year now, [01:58:50] so last year this time.

[01:58:51] Let's grow this bookkeeping company. Like, let's go. And so I went to Toronto twice. I've been... I got on the ADP board of [01:59:00] advisors. Um, uh, you know, I've-

[01:59:03] KYLE: Did you get more sales?

[01:59:04] JEREMY: What?

[01:59:05] KYLE: Did you get more sales?

[01:59:05] JEREMY: Yeah. Oh yeah, we got more sales, but no, see, so this is the thing. If you're starting a [01:59:10] company, do not farm.

[01:59:11] Like, don't go to networking events.

[01:59:13] KYLE: No.

[01:59:14] JEREMY: Don't, like- That's

[01:59:15] KYLE: what I was curious about.

[01:59:16] JEREMY: Yeah.

[01:59:17] KYLE: Like, like why you went to all those events. Like, d- wouldn't you wanna just- Yeah,

[01:59:19] JEREMY: to [01:59:20] network and to get clients. So like, to like- Wouldn't

[01:59:21] KYLE: you wanna just call clients?

[01:59:22] JEREMY: Well, that's the thing, right? And so I started just naively.

[01:59:26] I'm like, "Hey, I'm gonna get a part of the chamber of commerce," right? Right. All three of [01:59:30] them. I'm part of Langley- Yeah ... I was for d- BNI. I'm gonna get a part of BNI. Yes. I'm gonna get, uh, you know, do all this networking stuff. Didn't yield any clients. Well, sure [01:59:40] enough, I start cold calling, right? And I start, like, getting client.

[01:59:44] Like, cold calling is not dead, everyone. Oh no, definitely not. Oh, no, it is definitely not. Like, you get a [01:59:50] list of numbers and you hammer the- Yeah ... like, you're, you're good to go. Cool. Uh, so farming was terrible, and just now, uh, in February, the end of [02:00:00] February, AI happened. So agents started coming out, and I was like, out of a need for growth for the bookkeeping company.

[02:00:06] I essentially started, [02:00:10] uh, automations with a CRM. And so with the CRM, the GoHighLevel CRM, I started automating my reach outs, my everything- Workflows, yeah ... [02:00:20] like my workflows. At one point it was hilarious 'cause at 5:30 AM one morning, I had activated this workflow. It shot out two emails [02:00:30] and a phone call to 350 contacts in the GoHighLevel app.

[02:00:36] And I was like, "Holy flip," and then I went on Instagram and I was like, "I am [02:00:40] so sorry," like, "if you got that call." Uh, I was doing social media at this point as well. Uh- Crazy ... and, uh, and then I got into the Claude Code realm, [02:00:50] and I became a-

[02:00:51] KYLE: Lots, lots of that information ... coder Where do c- where can people find your website and all that stuff if people wanna find out more?

[02:00:56] JEREMY: Okay. So, uh, mbclarity.com. Yeah. Um, and then nexthanddigital.com.[02:01:00]

[02:01:03] Okay. Awesome. Cool. Yeah, Nexthand Digital, so.

[02:01:05] KYLE: Well, it was- Yeah ... fascinating chat. You have a crazy story. Uh, and, uh- [02:01:10] There you go ... I just thought it'd be, uh, f- fun to have you on and to, uh, just share that. Mm-hmm. And, uh, um, yeah, I think there's less, lots of lessons to be learned in it and, uh-

[02:01:18] JEREMY: Well, thanks for having

[02:01:19] KYLE: me

[02:01:19] and you're gonna have a [02:01:20] whole bunch of fans- From the reformed ... uh, from the, from the data, data side, so. Yeah.

[02:01:23] JEREMY: Come visit Free Reformed, Let's Go. Yeah,

[02:01:25] KYLE: yeah.

[02:01:26] JEREMY: That's where you'll find me twice every Sunday.

[02:01:28] KYLE: Thanks for listening, guys. Yeah. [02:01:30] If you enjoy that, please share, uh, the episode with a friend or a family member.

[02:01:33] That goes a long way. Um, but, uh, yeah, otherwise I'll catch you on the next one. Peace.

[02:01:38] JEREMY: Peace. [02:01:40] Good to go.

[02:01:41] KYLE: Good to go, man. Nice. That was great.

[02:01:42] JEREMY: That was awesome.

[02:01:43] KYLE: That was great.

[02:01:44] JEREMY: Yeah. Good to go. Roll in here. Ah. We gotta do a picture for the- Oh, we [02:01:50] gotta do a picture? Yeah. One sec. For the, um, thumbnail. Ah, thumbnail.

[02:01:52] Yes. Should I roll in here?

[02:01:55] KYLE: Yeah.[02:02:00]

[02:02:00] maybe does something with it.

[02:02:01] JEREMY: I, I- Oh.

[02:02:03] KYLE: I just send Leonard the files, video editor. There you go.[02:02:10]

[02:02:10] Yeah.

[02:02:12] JEREMY: There you go

‍

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I Thought I Was Hearing God. Now I Think It Was Demonic | Jeremy Ryan - EP 58

September 12, 2026

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Some Christians Take Communion So the Elders Won’t Visit - Briefcase & The Barn EP 112

Why Church Leaders Are So Afraid to Admit They’re Broken - Briefcase & The Barn EP 111

Money, Family & When Business Goes Sideways - Briefcase & The Barn EP 110

Stop Work From Controlling Your Life

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I Thought I Was Hearing God. Now I Think It Was Demonic | Jeremy Ryan - EP 58

September 12, 2026

Stay Updated With Our Latest Releases

keep reading

Some Christians Take Communion So the Elders Won’t Visit - Briefcase & The Barn EP 112

Why Church Leaders Are So Afraid to Admit They’re Broken - Briefcase & The Barn EP 111

Money, Family & When Business Goes Sideways - Briefcase & The Barn EP 110

Stop Work From Controlling Your Life

Company

Resources

Opening Hours

Office

Contact us

Podcast Question