Why So Many Dutch Reformed People Never Feel Good Enough - Briefcase & The Barn EP 109

August 12, 2026

[00:00:00] GARY: Yeah,

[00:00:00] KYLE: the tables were turned

[00:00:05] GARY: I have no desire to record today, but that's par for the course, I guess.

[00:00:09] KYLE: That's [00:00:10] par for the course

[00:00:12] GARY: Somebody could not believe the other day that we had done 104 weeks in a row. They're like, "You record every week?"[00:00:20]

[00:00:21] Ah, they just found out about it. Uh, Mike- There is a- Mike to Ryder ...

[00:00:25] KYLE: there's a lot of them like that[00:00:30] [00:00:40] [00:00:50]

[00:00:55] GARY: Do tomorrow instead, question mark?[00:01:00] [00:01:10] [00:01:20] [00:01:30] [00:01:40] [00:01:50] [00:02:00] [00:02:10] [00:02:20] [00:02:30]

[00:02:34] KYLE: Uh, it's raining in Alberta, and so he doesn't have work right now. Um-

[00:02:39] GARY: Is he coming with his [00:02:40] family?

[00:02:40] KYLE: No, just himself.

[00:02:41] GARY: He's on the way?

[00:02:42] KYLE: Yeah. With Jeroen Van den Bosch, actually, who works for him.

[00:02:46] GARY: That name sounds familiar, too.

[00:02:48] KYLE: And his, uh, [00:02:50] his parents own the Orca place, or did.

[00:02:53] GARY: Yeah. Interesting.

[00:02:55] KYLE: You wanna pray?

[00:02:56] GARY: Sure. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day, all the things we [00:03:00] can do. Thank you for Kyle. It's his birthday, Lord. I just pray this year for him would be one where he is a leader, uh, that he lives a life beyond reproach, Lord, and just pray that you keep him from sin. [00:03:10] And, uh, God, just pray for his family and the blessing they are to many.

[00:03:14] I just pray for strength for them. And, uh, God, I just pray they have a great camping weekend with their aces. And [00:03:20] Lord, I just pray that this podcast would be, um, fun and entertaining, uh, while honoring to you, and just pray that would be, uh, yeah, that people's hearts would be soft [00:03:30] to your call in their life.

[00:03:31] We ask in Jesus' name. Amen.

[00:03:33] KYLE: Amen. You know what episode this is?

[00:03:37] GARY: Not a clue. Somewhere between [00:03:40] 100

[00:03:40] KYLE: and 110. One,

[00:03:41] GARY: 109. Okay.

[00:03:43] KYLE: No one knows. Welcome back, guys, to episode, uh, 109 of the Briefcase in the Barn with Gary and I[00:03:50]

[00:03:55] GARY: Kyle's birthday today

[00:03:57] KYLE: And anniversary

[00:03:58] GARY: And anniversary?

[00:03:59] KYLE: Yeah. [00:04:00]

[00:04:00] GARY: Okay.

[00:04:01] KYLE: 11 years.

[00:04:02] GARY: Okay. For better or for worse. Mostly worse- Better

[00:04:04] KYLE: now ...

[00:04:04] GARY: because of you.

[00:04:05] KYLE: We had the worst first. We started with the worst, then we ended with the, we're going to the better. [00:04:10] It is so nice having a good marriage. Goodness

[00:04:13] GARY: me. What constitutes a good marriage?

[00:04:15] Um- When you say it's so nice having a good marriage, you've obviously had a really shitty marriage at time. What constitutes a [00:04:20] good marriage?

[00:04:20] KYLE: Let me, let me answer that. One sec. Turn off my PC[00:04:30]

[00:04:31] Okay. What constitutes a good marriage? Um, an ability to be totally open with each other and [00:04:40] the other person that doesn't throw the other person off. Yeah. I would say that's one thing.

[00:04:47] GARY: Yeah,

[00:04:47] KYLE: that's one. Having, having fun together, [00:04:50] like actually being friends and wanting to spend time together.

[00:04:52] GARY: Yeah. Very challenging.

[00:04:54] KYLE: Yeah. It takes time. Um, actually, I re- I remember that when I started Happy Camper Dating, which is [00:05:00] something that my counselor Dave Curry recommended us to do- Yeah ... which is, um, every you- one of the pe- people is an organizer and the other person is the happy camper. So [00:05:10] you take turns. Nice. So at least one of the times you're doing something fun.

[00:05:13] And we started doing that after having not dated for years. Um, and I didn't get like... I was like, "This [00:05:20] sucks." I didn't enjoy Wednesday nights. Uh, and, and the dates we went on-

[00:05:24] GARY: Not even when you planned it?

[00:05:26] KYLE: When I planned it, it would be funner, but it was still, like we weren't, didn't really know each other [00:05:30] almost or really have a relationship.

[00:05:31] And it took, I remember we were doing it for like six to nine months before I started being like, you know, once you spend time- Mm-hmm ... with someone consistently and work on it, [00:05:40] you're gonna get closer, but it takes time, and I wanted instant results, so Still want instant results.

[00:05:47] GARY: Me too.

[00:05:49] KYLE: You do not [00:05:50] want to record today.

[00:05:50] GARY: No, never do.

[00:05:52] KYLE: What do you think constitutes a good marriage?

[00:05:54] GARY: Yeah, that would definitely be one of the things. I think that people, when you say, "Hey, be open with one another," I think [00:06:00] that was the word you used, like, I, I think most people don't have that.

[00:06:05] KYLE: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:05] GARY: I think that people, even great people that I know who would say they even have a great marriage, [00:06:10] there's things that they think about their spouse that they would never say to their spouse about them.

[00:06:14] Not that you need to share everything. I mean, that's a whole nother conversation of having- Yeah ... wisdom to know what, what to say to your, uh, [00:06:20] wife or husband or when. Um, but I think people don't realize that conflict is the pathway to intimacy, and I, I have had to learn that 'cause I would [00:06:30] prefer to just, I would just say everything's fine.

[00:06:32] Like, that would be my go-to. Like, and it pisses Marie right off, and it's totally fair. I would be like, "Yeah, we're doing great, and, uh, [00:06:40] and you're doing great too, by the way," I'll tell her. That's one another issue. Uh, just lack of empathy and lack of-

[00:06:46] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:06:46] GARY: her allowing to struggle in any way, right? Uh, 'cause I just, [00:06:50] not even 'cause I think, I guess it's, I would justify it.

[00:06:52] I would say, "Hey, like, you know what?" Like, I always do the comparison thing. That's how I've survived my whole life, right? And it's, and I just think people, [00:07:00] anyone, no matter who they are, could find a reason to complain, and anyone, no matter who they are, can be grateful for something. Are

[00:07:07] KYLE: you trying to defend- That would be my perspective on life

[00:07:08] the, the I'm fine comments and not- [00:07:10]

[00:07:10] GARY: Yeah ...

[00:07:10] KYLE: taking the conflict?

[00:07:10] GARY: Yeah. I am. I, and, uh- You're doing a

[00:07:14] KYLE: good job.

[00:07:17] GARY: So I always look- What

[00:07:17] KYLE: are you advocating for here?

[00:07:19] GARY: I don't even know. [00:07:20] I always look at us as like, hey, we're a team.

[00:07:22] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:07:22] GARY: And if we work hard enough and we bear down, we will get through this, right? Okay.

[00:07:25] And what, what- And that is not what my wife needs. Okay. My wife needs me to acknowledge that, [00:07:30] um, we have a lot of challenges, that our children, like we have six kids between three and 12, and they have a lot of special needs and a lot of challenges, and I just need to acknowledge that to her, that [00:07:40] it's very, like, not just say like, "Uh, it sounds like you're struggling.

[00:07:44] How can I help you?"

[00:07:46] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:07:46] GARY: Right? Like, not be the, you know, just say- So

[00:07:48] KYLE: what's true [00:07:50] I,

[00:07:51] GARY: I think both things can be true Are, is there, is there struggles? Yeah, there's definitely some struggles.

[00:07:54] KYLE: Okay.

[00:07:54] GARY: Um, and in just in our relationship, like so when you say f- like I would [00:08:00] always, I've always viewed us as not that...

[00:08:03] Like we are doing better than we've ever done, and we do, we're doing things together and trying- Yeah ... you know, but could do way [00:08:10] better. I could do way better- Yeah ... just hanging out with Marie and doing things that she enjoys doing. It's an area where I really, uh, suck sometimes.

[00:08:16] KYLE: Okay, I'm gonna interject-

[00:08:17] GARY: Yeah

[00:08:17] KYLE: on the, on the fine comment. I think, [00:08:20] um, I can relate to it as, uh, a lot of it as well, because if you admit you're not fine in your marriage or in your business or whatever else like that, a lot of people struggle [00:08:30] with like already feeling guilty for all their failures. And so if they admit there's something wrong, then that, it amplifies that guilt [00:08:40] feeling, or it, it makes it that they have to deal with it.

[00:08:42] GARY: That's fair. I, in our case, it would be, there'd be a couple scenarios where it would happen. One would be that I wouldn't want to, um, rock the boat. I [00:08:50] just wouldn't wanna face conflict. I wouldn't want to- Yeah,

[00:08:52] KYLE: you have to deal with it. Don't wanna deal with it.

[00:08:54] GARY: Yeah, or in her, like where it's like, "Hey- I would feel like I'm being the bigger person [00:09:00] just acting like we're okay or not bring something up.

[00:09:02] I'd be like, "Hey, I'm the husband." Being Christ-like would just mean bearing down sacrifice, and some of that's true. Yeah. And [00:09:10] most men don't do that enough. Yeah. That would be my assumption. I think most people are very entitled by nature and would just demand more and more of their, of their spouse a lot of the time in, in all, in all [00:09:20] ways.

[00:09:20] I think you've seen that too, where people don't even realize how, like, they're so not self-aware, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're just thinking, "Hey, like, just I should be being cared for in this way." Um, and I think you go through [00:09:30] periods in a marriage where one person is giving way more than the other person, and that's just normal too.

[00:09:34] I think that if you do that for years and years, eventually so much resentment will build, and typically, [00:09:40] you know, if somebody's saying that, that that's happening, the other person will just feel like they're nagging or criticizing or, uh, you- it may not be... Like, that's where I think people that go to marriage counseling, even if [00:09:50] they're doing moderately well, are so blessed because, boy, when you have a moderator or mediator, p- somebody just neutral sitting there that could interject and just help you, the [00:10:00] one person see it from the other person's perspective, and I think people are scared of that, so that's why they don't do it.

[00:10:05] Or they assume that the minute you do that, you have some major issue, and, you know, heaven forbid that we would [00:10:10] admit- Yeah ... we have a major issue.

[00:10:11] KYLE: Or, or that bringing stuff from the past, up from the past is just gonna make things worse, uh, and-

[00:10:15] GARY: Yeah, but it's there anyways, and it rears its ugly head in very weird ways.

[00:10:18] I've seen that in my own [00:10:20] life- Of course ... in relationships. Like, you know how people will bring something up from 10 or 15, 40 years ago, and it's like, even at, like, yeah, it j- it's very, people are very much [00:10:30] shaped by all their experiences and, and that- Yeah ... that can be very problematic. So anyways, I- Yeah,

[00:10:34] KYLE: I'm 100% convinced the best thing you can do for your marriage is work on yourself, not the marriage.

[00:10:38] GARY: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:39] KYLE: Like, you-

[00:10:39] GARY: Yeah. [00:10:40] And almost everybody that comes to Freedom Session or any heal- or even counseling, they always assume that if the other person would just be doing something a bit different, that they would have a [00:10:50] better marriage.

[00:10:50] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:10:51] GARY: Very rarely do they, does somebody acknowledge- Yes ... if I was doing this, if I was a bit healthier, then we'd be fine, right?

[00:10:57] KYLE: Yes.

[00:10:58] GARY: Yeah. And interestingly [00:11:00] enough, yeah, it's a journey. So-

[00:11:03] KYLE: When I read that ad read from, uh, Nitty Gritty Tiles Yeah, we better do this. This is getting them business too, by the way. Yeah, it is. 'Cause some- It's a

[00:11:08] GARY: whole bunch of

[00:11:08] KYLE: business ...

[00:11:08] GARY: well, and even me. [00:11:10] Like, I didn't even realize we didn't have tile that needed to be done.

[00:11:12] KYLE: Oh, wow.

[00:11:12] GARY: And then, you know, my sister-in-law texts my wife a picture of her kitchen, and Rhi's like, "Hey, look at her tile." I'm like, "Yeah, that's my ad read. If [00:11:20] you quit listening to the podcast, you would've known about it-

[00:11:21] if you listened to our podcast."

[00:11:23] KYLE: Geez. Yeah, it's, it's cool to see the ads are working though, so- Yeah ... anybody else wanna do ads, so reach out.

[00:11:26] GARY: Nitty Gritty Tiles. You know me, I'm frequently [00:11:30] wrong, but never in doubt. In one area where even I have enough self-awareness to know my limitations is anything involving tools.

[00:11:36] I'm not handy. If something breaks at my house, I'll call six or seven people before I consider [00:11:40] fixing it myself. And honestly, I think more men need this level of self-awareness, because there's always that moment where you look at a tile job and think, "How hard could that really be?" [00:11:50] Very hard, apparently.

[00:11:50] You spend all Saturday watching YouTube, and by 6:00 or 7:00 at night your wife is asking why the shower looks like... looks worse than when you started. Just call Nick at Nitty Gritty [00:12:00] Tiles. Nick and his crew do phenomenal work. Custom showers, heated floors, back splashes, fireplaces. If it involves tiles, these guys know what they're doing.

[00:12:07] Nick's also a great guy [00:12:10] Quiet big beard, and he'll probably tile your entire bathroom before he willingly makes small talk with you, which I actually respect. I could talk to six or seven complete strangers about something I know [00:12:20] absolutely nothing about, and somehow leave with all of them thinking I'm an expert.

[00:12:23] Nick just shuts up and really does good tile work. So if you're in Chilliwack or Abbotsford area and have a tile project, don't spend [00:12:30] six or seven days convincing yourself you can do it. Call Nick at Nitty Gritty Tiles. His number is 604-703-4148. That's Nitty Gritty [00:12:40] Tiles, 604-703-4148. And I saw the bill, the invoice.

[00:12:46] Seemed pretty reasonable.

[00:12:47] KYLE: Oh, there you go.

[00:12:48] GARY: Did not, I did not [00:12:50] get the feeling like you, like the customer was... I thought- Yeah ... I thought that seemed very reasonable.

[00:12:53] KYLE: Nick's a very, very fair guy. Very fair guy.

[00:12:54] GARY: Everything

[00:12:55] KYLE: has to be weight and

[00:12:56] GARY: scale. Very fair. Weight and scale. And is he the judge, the jury, and the executioner?

[00:12:59] I [00:13:00] think

[00:13:00] KYLE: so,

[00:13:00] GARY: yeah. Okay. No, that's a lot of responsibility. I'm glad I'm not him. Well, uh, good thing he likes math. He can calculate it all.

[00:13:07] KYLE: There you go, yeah.

[00:13:08] GARY: Get his abacus out. Yeah. [00:13:10]

[00:13:10] KYLE: Um, you wanna talk about, uh, that, uh, deep re- deep res- research report I did on-

[00:13:16] GARY: Uh, it's-

[00:13:17] KYLE: Did you, did you find anything interesting on there?

[00:13:18] GARY: Yeah, I did. [00:13:20]

[00:13:20] KYLE: So I did, uh, I went on AI and I, uh, on Gemini, which is I find the best for deep research reports because they have, uh, they can scrape Google and, um, YouTube the best because it's [00:13:30] owned by Google. And so I gave it the prompt to do a deep research report on the origins of, um, the modern Dutch Reform community in North America, [00:13:40] which I thought it would just be fas- fascinating- It

[00:13:42] GARY: is a very interesting read

[00:13:43] KYLE: what I came up with. Yeah. What did you s- what does that go to you? I

[00:13:46] GARY: think you should put it in the show notes, the link.

[00:13:48] KYLE: I will, yeah. '

[00:13:48] GARY: Cause some people will really find it [00:13:50] interesting to read. Yes. A lot of history there that I didn't read it in detail, like I skimmed through it last night- Okay ... while I was exercising.

[00:13:54] But the, um, this part really stood out to me, so I just took a screenshot of it, so I'll read it. [00:14:00] "The psychological obsession with being right. This theological framework breeds a psychological obsession with exactness. Sermons in these traditions," and I mean, these are, this is paint [00:14:10] brushing a bit, but of course it's just, it's AI, right?

[00:14:12] KYLE: Yeah. "

[00:14:12] GARY: Sermons in these traditions are rarely emotional appeals. They are highly intellectual, multi-point academic lectures designed to meticulously [00:14:20] pars- parse out theological nuances. This intellectualization of faith creates a culture where being right is valued far above being a peacemaker. When [00:14:30] disagreements arise within a consistory, the church council, the cultural instinct-" is to not compromise or dwell in ambiguity.

[00:14:38] Instead, the instinct is to [00:14:40] draw a hard boundary, divide the institutional assets, and form a new pure denomination to preserve the absolute truth. That is, like, so [00:14:50] accurate. Yes. And I would, I mean, if anybody disagrees with that, I'd love to hear from you, but that, like, my experience has been that, and I, and I see it even in the last three years in our ch- city, where it's like, [00:15:00] "Hey, you know, we're in this denomination.

[00:15:02] They're for sure veering a little off course. We can't, you know, change the denomination. We've tried that." Like, people, you know, and which is probably the right thing to do. [00:15:10] Mm-hmm. Like, have influence.

[00:15:11] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:15:11] GARY: In your heart you know that, you know, we do not need one more church in Chilliwack, right? Or at least not of a, a, you know- Yeah

[00:15:17] I just don't think we need one more church in Chilliwack. That's my- [00:15:20] Yeah ... that's my opinion. There's other unreached communities that we should be going to. Um, and then it's just this idea of being so concerned, like, living in gray [00:15:30] areas is, is so counter to what we're, we're brought up with, right? Mm. And I remember, and this is just, you know, there again, and it wasn't done in the wrong way.

[00:15:37] It was very much to protect truth and to [00:15:40] do, have you do the right thing. But it was like, "Hey, this is where we draw the line, and this is where we draw the line." And, you know, your, this whole co- article goes into a deep dive about Sabbath day observance and stuff, too, right? [00:15:50] And, like, everybody They would all agree with the original framework and then how that plays out, and it plays out even in our lives, 'cause I mean, we agree with the framework too.

[00:15:59] Mm-hmm. [00:16:00] Yeah. That the Sabbath is a day of rest- Yeah ... that it's important, that it's ordained by God, that it's still relevant today, right? But it, it, it plays out very differently, um, in the circle where it's like, "Hey, we've, we've drawn this line in the [00:16:10] sand." But interestingly enough, and this is why I find it so humorous and it's never talked about, everybody draws the line in the sand in a different area.

[00:16:16] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:16:16] GARY: They're all cut from the same cloth and they all think they're exactly right.

[00:16:19] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:16:19] GARY: And they would [00:16:20] feel very, very self-righteous in that.

[00:16:22] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:16:23] GARY: Right?

[00:16:23] KYLE: Well, it even says in here, "The North American Dutch Reformed landscape is notoriously fractured. To an outsider, the alphabet soup of [00:16:30] denominations, CRC, RCA, URC, PRC, CANRC, NRC, FRC, appears bewildering."

[00:16:36] GARY: We're miss- you missed a few, but yeah.

[00:16:38] KYLE: However, sociolo- [00:16:40] soci- I don't even know how to say the word. The constant fracturing- ... is the predictable output of a culture that values objective theological precision above almost all other [00:16:50] virtues.

[00:16:50] GARY: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where Paul preaches about it, um, but it's, it's in more than one spot in the New Testament.

[00:16:55] He's preaching to these churches about being unified- Yeah ... about not sweating the small [00:17:00] s- like- Yeah ... you know, I don't know if those sermons, passages are preached on or what the context is when they preach on them, or if they just avoid them because-

[00:17:06] KYLE: Mm ...

[00:17:06] GARY: it's not relevant to, you know, the- Yeah ... the pastors leading.

[00:17:09] KYLE: I remember actually [00:17:10] asking a pastor one time, uh, uh, growing up about Christian liberty, about like- Yeah ... um, how some things are sins for others, not for other- Yeah ... um, and that, 'cause that was something that wasn't even, it wasn't [00:17:20] talked about- Ever. Yeah ... remember being an elder, a few elders being around, and they hadn't really even heard of the concept Christian liberty, that like things could be sin for some people- Yeah

[00:17:27] and not for others, just depending on- Yeah ... you [00:17:30] know, if you're playing hockey too much- Yeah ... and neglect, neglecting your family or wh- whatever the thing is, you know. Um- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thought it was interesting.

[00:17:37] GARY: The part where I guess for me it practically plays out in a really [00:17:40] horrible way, 'cause there again, it doesn't matter obviously if there's five different- Yeah

[00:17:43] churches that are of similar denomination and they're all doing good things and people are worshiping there. Yeah. It's, it's because people feel [00:17:50] So, um, tribal that in those circles when someone leaves and goes to a slightly varying different church, everybody's hurt, and they feel offended, and they feel betrayed and wrong.

[00:17:59] And it's [00:18:00] like, I guess I just look at it like, "Hey, church is your... Church to me is your Christian community, it's your family." And that's why it does hurt when you leave because, you know, you, to some degree, you're losing your [00:18:10] family. Yeah, yeah. And like Marie and I have always said it too, when you leave, when we've left a church one time, it's like, yeah, all those people that were there, it's very hard to stay in contact- Yeah

[00:18:16] with those people, right? Um, so you, there is a sacrifice that's made, and I [00:18:20] mean, he- it's, it's a little more critical there where it talks in that article. But I just see it every single month here. I'll hear of somebody, the context of somebody leaving and going to a different church, which [00:18:30] is very similar.

[00:18:31] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:18:31] GARY: And they're hurt, and they're offended or they're judging, and I'm just like, I don't know. I want- That's, to me, that's just not right. That's just not biblical, so I, that, that bothers me.

[00:18:39] KYLE: I wanna go back to [00:18:40] the, the, some of the other things in the report here, but that, um, what you just said there makes me think of a comment you left here in the show notes, which was, "The irony of people at churches that couldn't leave their church or they would lose their [00:18:50] entire family, having all kinds of bumper and window stickers about freedom over fear."

[00:18:56] I thought that was a good thought.

[00:18:57] GARY: Nice. Yeah, you should read that one more time.

[00:18:58] KYLE: Okay. So the [00:19:00] irony of people at churches that couldn't leave their church or they would lose their entire family, but those same people having all kinds of bumper stickers [00:19:10] about freedom over fear when it comes to the government or whatever, anything else.

[00:19:14] Yeah. Yeah, that is pretty ironic.

[00:19:16] GARY: Leave that without comment.

[00:19:18] KYLE: Yeah. Okay, some other things from the report that I'll, [00:19:20] I will link in the show notes. Uh, the famous forget, uh, um, frugality, like cheapness, the theological root. It says here, "Calvinism teaches that all of life is lived, um, [00:19:30] in the presence of God.

[00:19:31] Wealth and resources ultimately belong to God, and humans are merely stewards." And the cultural manifestation of that is, "Debt-reformed individuals are [00:19:40] stereotypically viewed as hyper-frugal, intensely skilled with money, and relentlessly entrepreneurial. To waste money, um, or fall into unnecessary debt is not just a financial [00:19:50] miscalculation, it is a moral failure and a sin against God's provision.

[00:19:53] Conversely, accumulating wealth through different, quiet hard work and aggressive saving is viewed as a sign of God's providential blessing and one's [00:20:00] own moral uprightness."

[00:20:01] GARY: No. No, that's not true.

[00:20:03] KYLE: That's how it culturally manifests itself. It's not true?

[00:20:06] GARY: No, but even that, I don't even think it culturally manifests itself that way.

[00:20:09] KYLE: You don't think so?

[00:20:09] GARY: [00:20:10] No.

[00:20:10] KYLE: I think, I've s- I've heard it talked about that way. That like the re- the reasons there was so much wealth growing up is because, like, we're doing the right things.

[00:20:19] GARY: [00:20:20] Okay. I guess I find it ironic. It's similar to the freedom bumper sticker. Um, i- it's, I look at it way more like, um, and I mean, I struggle with this.

[00:20:29] This is a huge [00:20:30] struggle of mine where it's like you have this idea of like, hey, we're, we all believe God's sovereign. We trust in the Lord. We wanna trust in the Lord- Yeah ... practically, but it just does not play out in our life in any way. Yeah. Like, and, and [00:20:40] amazing people, right? But like saving, paranoid.

[00:20:42] Yeah,

[00:20:42] KYLE: yeah. Yeah,

[00:20:43] GARY: yeah. Like we're like- It's terrible ... godly people, right? But just very, and it, and, and it obviously exacerbates itself in a really, really [00:20:50] harsh way when people are not even saved.

[00:20:52] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:20:52] GARY: And now they're becoming very wealthy, because very soon that is your comfort.

[00:20:56] KYLE: Yes.

[00:20:58] GARY: I, interestingly enough, this is my experience in [00:21:00] my life, God does his best work in our lives when we got nothing left ourselves.

[00:21:03] KYLE: That's right.

[00:21:03] GARY: And so you really, when you insulate yourself with great wealth- Mm-hmm ... which obviously most of us are in that, just living in this community, we're [00:21:10] obviously very well off compared to the average person in the world. But like, in our community, some of the richest people literally go to our churches that we all go to.

[00:21:16] Um, that's why it's always humorous too when people are like worried about money or worried about [00:21:20] building a building or a school. I'm just like, "This is embarrassing, guys." Like, this is the richest people that I know-

[00:21:25] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:21:25] GARY: are in this place. Like, you do not need to worry. Like, that's just the least of your worries is [00:21:30] money.

[00:21:30] Yeah. And yet it's always the most worried about, right? Yes. So that, that's why I found the comment kind of like-

[00:21:34] KYLE: Yeah,

[00:21:35] GARY: I heard that ... when you talk about, you know, providential blessing from the Lord, I think it's most of the wealth [00:21:40] building comes from a deep, deep discontentment in their own heart, and chasing- Not knowing the Lord

[00:21:44] and chasing. Oh yeah, that's for me too. It's like when I'm... Yeah, I've just done it a lot of my life, [00:21:50] right, where it's just like build- Yeah ... build, build, work, work, work. And it, it's so complicated because none of that is wrong. Like, building businesses is not wrong. Making a lot of money's not wrong inherently.

[00:21:58] No, it's good, in a

[00:21:59] KYLE: good- It's-

[00:21:59] GARY: In [00:22:00] some ways good ... but it is very hard for the human being- Yes ... most human beings, or at least me anyways, to like, hey, how do you keep those things separate? How do you... And I think a lot of it is just, I mean-

[00:22:09] KYLE: Well, focus more [00:22:10] on faithfulness than results. Yeah. Right? Like, we're, we're so focused on trying to control the results rather than controlling- Yeah

[00:22:15] trying to focus on what God asks us, has- Yeah ... asked us to do.

[00:22:17] GARY: Yeah. People also, I find, and I'm finding [00:22:20] this more and more, I actually just had a meeting this morning with somebody from a nonprofit, they really twi- not twist, they're not meaning to twist, but they very quickly with nonprofits [00:22:30] kind of like, it's almost like they're manipulating the Lord or they'll say to you, "Well, if the Lord's gonna bless this, you know, this, this- Yeah

[00:22:36] will do well." And it's like, ah.

[00:22:38] KYLE: Like- Not necessarily.

[00:22:39] GARY: Well, it's just [00:22:40] complicated. Like, don't, don't try to use the, the guilt. We don't wanna be guilting people to give or w- it's just, you wanna be really, really careful with, uh, charity. Like, it's supposed to be a heart thing, right? And we're supposed to be cheerful [00:22:50] givers, and so like-

[00:22:51] KYLE: Yeah

[00:22:51] GARY: if we're doing it out of, you know-

[00:22:53] KYLE: Religion reasons. Yeah Like the Te- the Pharisees, they ti- they, they gave lots.

[00:22:57] GARY: Yeah.

[00:22:57] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:22:57] GARY: Or guilt. So anyways. Yeah, it's a very interesting [00:23:00] read. I- Yeah ... I, I will read it more in depth. I thought, I thought the history of the, the Dutch history and some of those things were-

[00:23:04] KYLE: I'll, I'll do two more that are kind of fun.

[00:23:05] GARY: Oh, wow, okay.

[00:23:06] KYLE: The obsession with neatness and perfect lawns.

[00:23:09] GARY: Yeah, [00:23:10] that's just good though, right? We're glad they're that way, right?

[00:23:12] KYLE: The gene- the, the-

[00:23:12] GARY: Nobody wants to look at- The theological- Drive down Chilliwack Central and Chilliwack, man. There should be some more Dutch people on that street. The

[00:23:17] KYLE: theological root, the Genesis mandate commands h- [00:23:20] um, humanity to subdue the Earth and establish order.

[00:23:22] Furthermore, the doctrine of total depravity points to, to the sin that brought chaos and decay into the world. And then it says here, the cultural [00:23:30] manifestation of it is the stereotype of the perfectly manicured lawn, the aggressively scrubbed house, and the orderly farm is ubiquitous in, in enclaves like West Michigan and the Fraser Valley.

[00:23:39] [00:23:40] In the reformed- Enclaves ... physique, creating the order of chaos, whether by pulling weeds, edging a driveway, or keeping the pristine living room- Very important ... in a subconscious [00:23:50] act of spiritual warfare. Cleanliness is next to godliness is lived out literally. A chaotic, unkept property is sub- uh, subtly judged by the community as evidence of chaotic-

[00:23:58] GARY: Way more than [00:24:00] subtly

[00:24:01] KYLE: indisciplined spiritual life. Okay, I'll quickly go through a few others.

[00:24:04] GARY: How did that st- what did that stand out to you? All that shit's big facts. Just drives you bonkers?

[00:24:08] KYLE: What?

[00:24:09] GARY: Nobody has spent [00:24:10] more money on their backyard than you have in the last year- Oh ... of anyone I know.

[00:24:13] KYLE: Fair, fair enough. It's my backyard, so no one can see it.

[00:24:16] GARY: Okay.

[00:24:16] KYLE: Not

[00:24:16] GARY: my

[00:24:17] KYLE: front yard. Fair point. Fair point. My front lawn is dead as... All, all gone. It's dead,

[00:24:19] GARY: yeah. A [00:24:20] lot of weeds, too.

[00:24:21] KYLE: And, uh, yeah, I just think about my kids. I just want a great place to play with the kids.

[00:24:25] GARY: Yeah. I feel like, um, the reason it's actually so [00:24:30] damaging is because often cultures, and not just our culture, but often any cul- often cultures that are extremely outward-focused on things [00:24:40] looking really well have a lot of, like, just dark-

[00:24:43] KYLE: Oh, yeah, yeah

[00:24:43] GARY: secret crap. The majority. Like, it's just- Yeah ... bizarre, right? Like, if you go to any, you know, even if you, if you'd be in Muslim cultures or other cultures like that- [00:24:50] Yeah ... where it's like, hey, everything's, the people are, uh, dialed in on the outside and we have order and this is how it looks. Yeah. And it's like, oh, it's all about controlling, uh-

[00:24:57] KYLE: Yes

[00:24:58] GARY: the nefarious activity that's happening [00:25:00] quietly and- Yeah ... where things are not, not great, right? So.

[00:25:03] KYLE: Okay, last one. The impact of total depravity. You know total depravity, Tulip?

[00:25:08] GARY: I am totally depraved. [00:25:10]

[00:25:10] KYLE: At the heart of the he- uh, okay, the Calvinistic, uh, um, guilt. Um, so this comes from that. The heart of the three forms of unity is the doctrine of total depravity, the belief that [00:25:20] humans are conceived and born in sin, are incapable of saving any saving good, and are prone by nature to hate God and their neighbor.

[00:25:27] It's like, uh, internalizing this [00:25:30] doctrine from early childhood creates a hyper-vigilant inner critic. Individuals are conditioned to view their own desires, thoughts, and motivations with intense suspicion. This breeds Calvinistic guilt, a [00:25:40] chronic low-grade anxiety that no- that one is never doing enough, never faithful enough, and is inherently flawed at the core.

[00:25:48] The imposter syndrome that comes out of [00:25:50] this, even when individuals achieve massive success in businesses or academia, the ingrained belief in their own fundamental worthlessness can lead to severe imposter syndrome, [00:26:00] workaholism, big, uh, mechanic shops, and- It becomes psychologically difficult to internalize self-worth or accept praise without immediately deflecting it, [00:26:10] lest one fall into the sin of pride.

[00:26:12] I don't-

[00:26:12] GARY: Very accurate. Yeah. Very accurate. There's

[00:26:15] KYLE: so much stuff in here. You

[00:26:16] GARY: cannot disagree with that. That is an, that is an amazing bit.

[00:26:19] KYLE: Yeah. [00:26:20] And then it goes on, it talks about, like, soft shunning from leaving the church.

[00:26:23] GARY: Yeah.

[00:26:24] KYLE: Um, it just all, it's just, it's just really, really interesting.

[00:26:26] GARY: That part's really important, though.

[00:26:28] That part's really important.

[00:26:29] KYLE: The soft [00:26:30] shunning?

[00:26:30] GARY: No, the first part there about the total, how, how that doctrine, um-

[00:26:33] KYLE: Oh, yeah,

[00:26:34] GARY: yeah ... I think it really affects people in a negative way, even parenting, right? I think the idea that-

[00:26:39] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:26:39] GARY: you know, you [00:26:40] would create people that are proud. Um, but instead we just created a bunch of people that, you know, are insecure and, and aren't healthy and- Yeah

[00:26:47] are just trying their whole life to- I really

[00:26:48] KYLE: recognize this in myself.

[00:26:49] GARY: Yeah. [00:26:50]

[00:26:50] KYLE: Like, constantly-

[00:26:51] GARY: Yeah ...

[00:26:51] KYLE: s- still.

[00:26:52] GARY: There again, the people that, where it's practiced, it's practiced for the right reasons. And that's what's interesting about a lot of, I mean, no different than you and I and the [00:27:00] mistakes we make, right?

[00:27:00] I mean, we definitely don't mean to be screwing up our kids, we just are. And I think that a lot of, um, I think a lot of our, the things that we do I just think [00:27:10] to be self-aware, you need to be looking at something like this, right? And in our culture, that would be very, very prevalent where we would not be encouraging enough to our children.

[00:27:16] KYLE: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:17] GARY: Myself included. I'm still, I really struggle with that. [00:27:20]

[00:27:21] KYLE: I have a little bit of a rant on that-

[00:27:23] GARY: Okay ...

[00:27:23] KYLE: that I wrote down. I'm just gonna read it 'cause I wanted to, uh-

[00:27:26] GARY: Just get it off your chest ... say,

[00:27:27] KYLE: say it correctly. Just get

[00:27:28] GARY: it off your chest.

[00:27:29] KYLE: But it's on [00:27:30] that topic. I wasn't sure if we were gonna talk about it today, but-

[00:27:32] GARY: We're

[00:27:32] KYLE: close enough

[00:27:32] so Jesus, a rabbi, did not force... Sorry, did you say we're close to being done? I got a co- I got listener [00:27:40] feedback this week saying that, uh, the episodes are too short. Why are you so short? You guys just barely get started. Yeah, that's

[00:27:44] GARY: only Joe Pohl, right?

[00:27:45] KYLE: Oh, okay. This was- ... this was John, but. Okay. Uh, a- a- [00:27:50] but if you agree with that, though, um, let me know.

[00:27:54] Okay. So Jesus, a rabbi, did not force people to follow him or force obedience of his disciples. [00:28:00] And we need to, we need to discipline our kids, which means disciple them so they are ready in the world, not force obedience. Teach them the [00:28:10] why of what you're asking for. Explain it slowly that they won't... And they won't really get it, but over time they will understand.

[00:28:19] That's what learning [00:28:20] does. It's never instant. So it's not about behavior modification, it's heart transformation we want. And we as parents can't do that, but we can live in a way that our kids see in us [00:28:30] that following Jesus is a great, attractive, beautiful, and bold thing. They see what you believe by only the things that you act.

[00:28:37] Anything you teach with words that you don't do [00:28:40] in actions, they won't listen to, and you're teaching something you don't even believe yourself, which is essentially lying. Obedience comes from love. We want f- to follow people [00:28:50] we love. Are you a loving, kind, gentle, caring dad who takes time for your kids to know them and build an emotional relationship with them?

[00:28:57] Do you know how things have been going for them lately? These are [00:29:00] your kids, for goodness sake. Besides grace and marriage, it's the biggest gift God can give. Cultivating your relationship with them Or cultivate your relationship with them, work [00:29:10] on it. When you start a small business, it usually takes two years to really start making profit and five years before you start really making m- any money.

[00:29:16] It's really, really hard and stressful. In the same [00:29:20] way, if you're s- starting your parenting journey, you want to learn to parent well, expect it to be really, really hard. For example, when you learn about much more healthy ways to raise your kids, [00:29:30] that will make the difference between how you grew up in your home even more stark, and that's, uh, i- in just one example, painful to come to terms with.

[00:29:39] It's also probably [00:29:40] gonna cost you a lot. It cost me a huge amount of money, but it was so worth it. And I'm not saying it has to be money that costs you, even though good counseling, coaching, conferences, finding mentors, et cetera, [00:29:50] usually does cost a lot. I'm just saying you need to get... let go of the past way of doing something, that learned behavior, the comfortable way of doing things for you, and you need to surrender [00:30:00] that.

[00:30:00] Actually trust God will give you what you need and move forward in faith over and over one day at a time. When you parent your kids like Christ disciplined his disciples [00:30:10] with cords of love, which is a Old English saying, which is a metaphor for how God draws, guides, and cares for people gently through compassion and [00:30:20] relationship rather than by force, they will run to you, including when they are teenagers.

[00:30:24] They will genuinely want to be around you because you care about them. You're safe, trustworthy, uplifting, [00:30:30] kind, et cetera. You are the fruits of the Spirit. Paul says in Romans, "It's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance," and it's the same for our [00:30:40] kids. What parent can really do this? Nobody. But we need to admit that, actually confess our inability to parent like Christ, and all your sins to [00:30:50] God in prayer every day and ask for His help to be obedient to His Word one day at a time, and He will do the changing.

[00:30:58] End of rant for[00:31:00]

[00:31:04] Any thoughts?

[00:31:07] GARY: No, not really. I feel like [00:31:10]

[00:31:10] KYLE: You agree or disagree with anything?

[00:31:11] GARY: Well, I agree with that. I guess it's

[00:31:16] The thing is, is that, um, change [00:31:20] doesn't come from knowledge. Change doesn't come from knowledge, right? So, like, change is motivated. It's interesting with the part that we were talking about earlier in the, like, about how [00:31:30] the sermons are not from, like, they don't have an emotional plea, the p- piece that I read.

[00:31:34] KYLE: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:34] GARY: Like, that's true, but like, um, I guess I look at [00:31:40] the Psalms and I look at a lot of the Bible as like a lot of emotion.

[00:31:43] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:31:44] GARY: And it's interesting how we were never, like, that was just never part of what we were brought up with, right? There was, it was about [00:31:50] being, like, maybe somber, that was acceptable.

[00:31:54] Yeah. But great joy was never talked about. No. Even though it's, like, all over the Bible, right? Great joy. Fruit of the spirit. Like, what does even [00:32:00] great joy look like? Yeah, the fruit of the spirit. Number

[00:32:01] KYLE: two is

[00:32:02] GARY: joy. Yeah.

[00:32:02] KYLE: Love joy.

[00:32:03] GARY: Yeah.

[00:32:03] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:32:04] GARY: Um, and so, yeah, I think that a lot of people, I, I just dealing with, like, a lot of [00:32:10] broken people lately, and I, I feel like all the...

[00:32:12] And, and people are always Most people know what they're suppo- [00:32:20] like, they know what the right thing to do or they, they- Yeah ... you know, and that's why the outsides all look pretty decent, 'cause everybody's just putting on this front, right? Yeah. But if you talk about the change, you know, the rant that you went on there, the ideas [00:32:30] of things that would happen even in your own life, why did it eventually happen?

[00:32:33] Why did you start to make some of those changes? What brought that on?

[00:32:36] KYLE: It wasn't knowledge. It was, it was-

[00:32:37] GARY: It wasn't knowledge.

[00:32:38] KYLE: I mean, I guess I [00:32:40] wanted it. Like, I just realized I was destroying things.

[00:32:44] GARY: Yeah, and it came out of great hardship.

[00:32:46] KYLE: Yes. Yeah.

[00:32:47] GARY: A lot. Right? A lot, like-

[00:32:48] KYLE: I was, I was between a rock [00:32:50] and a

[00:32:50] GARY: hard place.

[00:32:50] So when people call me and they're really upset and their life's falling apart, I had somebody this morning call 'cause their wife ha- had an affair and was, and like, you know, things are in really bad shape. Um, [00:33:00] it's awful, and it's really sad, and, you know, you pray for people and encour- try to encourage them and comfort them.

[00:33:05] But really, like a lot of the time, those things are the catalyst to amazing change. Yeah. Like, [00:33:10] that's being... That would sound abrasive or harsh to some people, but I think people need to- It's

[00:33:14] KYLE: just facts. Usually- Yeah ... like-

[00:33:16] GARY: Har- hard things are s- sometimes the greatest blessing, right? So, I

[00:33:19] KYLE: mean. Well, you're naturally not [00:33:20] gonna choose them.

[00:33:21] GARY: No. No, but they, but then they force you, right? Yeah. And most of us, myself anyways, need to be forced. Yeah. Most of the decisions I made have come out of, you know- Yeah ... I'm just like, "Oh, now I'm [00:33:30] here. Okay." So, I don't know.

[00:33:32] KYLE: Yeah, I agree.

[00:33:33] GARY: Appreciate it. I saw that you had, uh, feedback from a listener that appreciated the real estate update.

[00:33:38] KYLE: Yes, that's right. Yeah. [00:33:40] About, uh, they had just put an offer on a house that had, um, foreclosed, I guess. Okay. And, um, so, um, they were, uh, appreciative of that, which was, uh, good, so now we're good with the real estate [00:33:50] stuff for a while.

[00:33:50] GARY: No, no, we're just getting warmed up. Oh. That was just, that was-

[00:33:53] KYLE: Oh. Okay.

[00:33:54] GARY: Oh my, I posted a long article, eh, about the Strait of Hormuz.

[00:33:57] What the heck?

[00:33:58] KYLE: All kinds of stuff. [00:34:00] You, uh, you also put in there, um, um, yeah, the government making money- Um, this, this, this I thought was interesting that you put in [00:34:10] here. "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government." Where'd you get this from? Do you know what I'm reading here?

[00:34:17] GARY: S- sorry, I'm trying to find it.

[00:34:19] W- keep reading. [00:34:20] Sorry. I'll

[00:34:20] KYLE: find it. "It can only exist until voters discover that they can vote themselves, uh, largely from the public treasury. From that [00:34:30] moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses o- over loose fiscal policy, [00:34:40] always followed by dictatorship.

[00:34:42] The average age of the world's greatest civilizations have been 200 years. These nations have progressed through their, this sequence: [00:34:50] from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to apathy, from apathy to [00:35:00] dependence, and from dependence back into bondage."

[00:35:01] That's

[00:35:02] GARY: an amazing quote. 100%. That's why I posted it. That is, that is gold.

[00:35:06] KYLE: Yes. Yes.

[00:35:07] GARY: Yeah.

[00:35:08] KYLE: And it's happening.

[00:35:09] GARY: Yeah. We [00:35:10] are definitely in the selfishness phase.

[00:35:11] KYLE: Yes. Hardcore. Yeah. Even in, yeah, I, I, it bothers me the most in business-

[00:35:16] GARY: I would say apathy to some degree. We're really in the- Yeah ... apathy [00:35:20] phase We're already in the apathy phase.

[00:35:23] KYLE: Nothing we can do about it.

[00:35:25] GARY: No, I think there's that- Like,

[00:35:26] KYLE: or

[00:35:26] GARY: like- I think the mo- apath- it's more that people are just very [00:35:30] much not realizing how consequences, fiscal consequences are gonna have serious implications- Oh, yeah ... practically, right? And it's masked over for many [00:35:40] years by prolific government spending, and we're definitely in the, the tail end of that at some point.

[00:35:44] Like, if you look at the, um, I mean, I can't spit out the stat now, but yeah. We f- we talk about it a lot on here. [00:35:50] But I, I, the federal deficit spending of all governments across the world, Western civilizations are in, are in deep trouble. And when you've seen it in Turkey, w- you know, [00:36:00] where they're, they're l- is it Lira?

[00:36:02] I don't know how you pronounce their currency, but, you know, or Argentina or Venezuela. You see these countries and their currency goes for crap. We've always assumed that was, you know, [00:36:10] you know, some banana republic and just, you know, whatever. Mm. They didn't have the resources that we have. Now, we do have resources, so we, you know, in Canada, I think, and, and even the US, we could change things around.

[00:36:18] But there needs to be [00:36:20] a harsh, harsh-

[00:36:21] KYLE: Same thing with the marriage stuff, right? Big changes Like, something has- Something has to break ... hard has to happen because no one's ... You're not gonna get the majority of people in government or in [00:36:30] Canada to vote for hard times.

[00:36:33] GARY: I th- I think, no, I think it'll, it, the change will come through revolution, right?

[00:36:37] The, the, the-

[00:36:38] KYLE: Hard times will come, and that's when the people [00:36:40] will-

[00:36:40] GARY: But we're entering hard times now. Yeah. A lot of people are having really hard times now.

[00:36:43] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:36:44] GARY: People are really struggling, right? In ... I, I think that in the next five years we will have horrible, [00:36:50] horrible stagflation. Yeah. Like, I think we're already having it now, and people don't realize it 'cause a lot of people are protected.

[00:36:54] They haven't been fired yet. You know, I've joked on here before, right? Like, you know, a recession is, you know, when your [00:37:00] neighbor loses your job, and a depression is when you lose your job, right? But I think that will happen, where people start getting laid off, tightening of belts happen. And it's interesting on asset prices, like we've talked about, you know, [00:37:10] the correction in housing.

[00:37:11] Like, there are good deals, like I would argue good deals. And I mean- We've helped clients and ourselves that bought stuff in the last weeks here. Yeah. It's been like, if you're looking [00:37:20] for... If you own a townhouse right now, in my opinion, in the Fraser Valley, you should be moving into a detached home.

[00:37:26] KYLE: Okay.

[00:37:27] GARY: Like now is the time. That, that'd be my opinion.

[00:37:29] KYLE: And who do they [00:37:30] call to do that?

[00:37:30] GARY: Uh, Julius. Call Julius, yeah. Right. Julius loves doing real estate. He's just a hustler. Uh, shout out to Julius.

[00:37:38] KYLE: Yeah, shout out to Julius.

[00:37:39] GARY: Yeah. [00:37:40] Um, no, you can call- But, but yeah, I think it's- You can call any, you can call your own realtor, but like, make a lateral; now is a great time to make a lateral move.

[00:37:48] Detached houses-

[00:37:49] KYLE: Why would it be [00:37:50] l- like if you're buying and selling in the same, a high market or a low market, what difference does

[00:37:54] GARY: it make? Why?

[00:37:55] KYLE: Is, was like the percentage difference is bigger? You would have to...

[00:37:58] GARY: So when you c- when you're in a correction [00:38:00] phase-

[00:38:00] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:38:00] GARY: as a general rule, the highest place, price, place is correct the fastest.

[00:38:04] KYLE: Okay.

[00:38:05] GARY: Like when the money dries up- Understood ... stuff that way exor- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... you know, that. Yeah. You know, the bottom is the bottom. Yeah. Like you're only gonna have [00:38:10] a two-bedroom apartment sell so cheap.

[00:38:11] KYLE: And the majority of the people can afford the bottom.

[00:38:13] GARY: Exactly.

[00:38:13] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:38:14] GARY: There, there's a great greater pool of people buying in the, in Chilliwack in the 300 to 800, s- [00:38:20] $700,000 range than in the- Hmm

[00:38:21] 800 to 1.4 million.

[00:38:22] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:38:22] GARY: Um, it's interesting though, that stat's probably not as accurate as it was because we're, the, the gap between the rich and the poor is becoming [00:38:30] way greater. So there's way more people that are getting paid, you know, crazy, a lot of money, like 150, 200,000 a year. And of course there's a lot of people that are stuck in this 60 to 80,000 a year, which you can hardly [00:38:40] afford anything now if you make that amount of money, um, if you're not in the market, right?

[00:38:43] You're in a horrible spot. But what you're seeing is, like strata fees are through the roof, eh? So like strata fees are 300 to [00:38:50] $500 a month. Well, all of a sudden that's covering $100,000 in debt. So now if you owned a townhouse that was worth 550, you can buy a detached in Chilliwack for in the 600s probably.

[00:38:59] Not a [00:39:00] great one, but you know, for sure in the low sevens you can.

[00:39:02] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:39:02] GARY: So if you're willing to sacrifice a tiny bit on space-

[00:39:06] KYLE: It's so

[00:39:06] GARY: wild to me that

[00:39:07] KYLE: in 2015- ... and you're willing to be a bit of a- ... I bought a detached three-bedroom [00:39:10] home for 260

[00:39:12] GARY: Yeah, I mean, I bought, uh- That's 11 years ago ... I bou- I bought 13 acres with a 4,000 square foot house on it, and a second house for 1.25 million.

[00:39:19] KYLE: Yeah. [00:39:20]

[00:39:20] GARY: Right? Like, it was just absurd. So this is an, another interesting stat, and this is what people don't realize, and this is why you need to be very careful listening to people that just say, "Oh, time in the market, time in the market." [00:39:30] That is true, but sometimes it's a very long time, and people- Mm ... most people think they have forever, but they don't, because life changes, they move, they-

[00:39:38] KYLE: Yeah

[00:39:38] GARY: have challenging work, you know, [00:39:40] financial situations. But, like, from 2008 to 2015, '16, the market was essentially flat or even- Yeah ... trending down. I remember that, yeah. There was a lot of foreclosures, [00:39:50] 2012, 2013. Because my, because

[00:39:50] KYLE: I remember being told actually by a family member in 2015, "Don't buy, rent, because it's gonna go down more."

[00:39:56] GARY: Yeah, it was very soft. Then '16, '17, uh, Chinese [00:40:00] money started coming.

[00:40:00] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:40:01] GARY: And that was the first run up. So, like, in our town from 2015 to 2018, prices doubled, and then they doubled again from 2018. Like, literally doubled- Yeah ... in another three years, fr- [00:40:10] to 2021.

[00:40:11] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:40:11] GARY: And then they, they are now, we are now back to, um, not quite 2018 prices and everything, but you're definitely trending there in a lot, in a [00:40:20] lot of product, and you're seeing a lot of houses sell in the 700 range, like detached homes, right?

[00:40:25] Yeah. And even in the 600s.

[00:40:26] KYLE: Mm.

[00:40:26] GARY: Even in the 500s.

[00:40:28] KYLE: Crazy.

[00:40:28] GARY: Yeah. So. [00:40:30]

[00:40:31] KYLE: Okay, got a mailbag question. Okay. Uh, is it wrong biblically to move in with your fiancé [00:40:40] before you're married, even if you plan to get married in the near future? And what verses in the Bible prove that?

[00:40:49] GARY: Like, what do you mean [00:40:50] by moving in?

[00:40:51] KYLE: Yeah, so actually I said, I-

[00:40:52] GARY: Metaphorically or physically?

[00:40:53] KYLE: Phys- I asked, I a- I asked for the clarification and they said both. [00:41:00]

[00:41:00] GARY: Yeah. I mean-

[00:41:02] KYLE: I think they know, I,

[00:41:03] GARY: I think- There's a lot of sermons on this. If you're asking the question, you know the answer.

[00:41:06] KYLE: I agree.

[00:41:07] GARY: That's, h- honestly, a lot of the time you can just [00:41:10] a- a- ask the question and you already know the answer.

[00:41:12] KYLE: You just want it to be-

[00:41:13] GARY: You just somehow want people to justify what you wanna do.

[00:41:16] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:41:17] GARY: So can you be honest enough with yourself to admit that? That's [00:41:20] the question.

[00:41:20] KYLE: Yeah. Or yeah, or just do it.

[00:41:22] GARY: Comes back to the teaching we were brought up with, the heart is deceitful above all things. I just had somebody read that verse to me before I walked into this recording.

[00:41:29] KYLE: Okay. Yeah. [00:41:30] Because they were, felt you were deceiving yourself?

[00:41:31] GARY: Ah, well, I'm, I'm sure I am deceiving myself. We all are, but I mean, it was more just the idea of like, yeah, [00:41:40] that mentality is healthy in some respects, but can also be very damaging, right?

[00:41:44] KYLE: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:45] GARY: Um-

[00:41:47] KYLE: I mean, yeah, I, I-

[00:41:47] GARY: There's a lot of great sermons on this, eh?

[00:41:49] Like [00:41:50] Mark Driscoll, like back in the day and when I, like, first started making changes in my life in '07, '08, he was really popular. Yeah. Some people are getting PTSD- He'd be yelling ... listening to me talk about him, right? Yeah, yeah.

[00:41:59] KYLE: I [00:42:00] do a little

[00:42:00] GARY: bit. He'd be ranting, right? Yeah. But no, he spoke to young men and he called young men to, to do the right thing, and I appreciated that.

[00:42:06] And I think even I've heard great sermons from, uh, Matt [00:42:10] Chandler on it and our pastor, it's like, what is fornication, right? And-

[00:42:14] KYLE: And it, and it's, it's gonna be like half a year or a year until you get married, like, y- is your self-control that low that you can't- Well,

[00:42:19] GARY: they're pro- [00:42:20] people are probably already sleeping together, right?

[00:42:22] KYLE: Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah.

[00:42:23] GARY: Yeah. Unless you say you feel like you're damaged goods and-

[00:42:25] KYLE: Yeah. Two verses, Hebrews 13:4, "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, [00:42:30] for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." Um, and, uh, also, um, 1 Corinthians 7:9, which is [00:42:40] actually promoting marriage so that you don't, uh, struggle, uh, with your, uh, lust.

[00:42:45] "But if they cannot, um, control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to [00:42:50] burn with passion." Yeah,

[00:42:50] GARY: but you know what it says in the verse before that?

[00:42:52] KYLE: What?

[00:42:52] GARY: You're better off to stay single.

[00:42:54] KYLE: If you can't handle- Yeah ... it.

[00:42:58] GARY: Yeah.

[00:42:58] KYLE: Yeah. If you're able [00:43:00] to, uh-

[00:43:00] GARY: There's a lot of talk about being, about-

[00:43:01] KYLE: If you're able

[00:43:02] GARY: to be

[00:43:02] KYLE: a-

[00:43:02] GARY: how blessed it is to be- Yeah ... which is hard 'cause a lot of people that are single that I know wanna be married, which makes sense.

[00:43:07] KYLE: I remember my mom telling me, "It's gonna be easier for you to follow God if you're not [00:43:10] married." Yeah. Because you just don't have all the responsibilities and distractions of- Yeah

[00:43:15] regular life.

[00:43:15] GARY: I just read that in the reading plan, talks all about that.[00:43:20]

[00:43:22] KYLE: Got any o- anything else? You got, uh, 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 in here.

[00:43:26] GARY: Oh, that's... Uh, no idea.

[00:43:28] KYLE: Well, why don't you put that verse in there? Okay. [00:43:30] I'll read it. "I wrote to you in my, uh, in my letter not to associate with the sexual immoral people, not at all meaning people of this world who are [00:43:40] immoral or greedy or swindlers or idolaters.

[00:43:42] In that case-"

[00:43:46] In that case, you should have to leave this world. But now I'm [00:43:50] writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister, but a sexually immoral or greedy, an adulterer or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. [00:44:00] Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?

[00:44:05] Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel [00:44:10] the wicked person from among you.

[00:44:12] GARY: Yeah. Mo- I- A lot of us have that completely backwards. That's why I posted it.

[00:44:15] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:44:16] GARY: Most of us, you know, drink too much and- You go to a church, you wing it, you're fine ... we drink too much with people in the [00:44:20] church, and we criticize all the people that aren't in the church.

[00:44:22] So it just, it just blew my mind when I read that. I'm like, "I gotta dr-"

[00:44:25] KYLE: Yes. "

[00:44:25] GARY: I gotta share that." Wake up. Yeah. It's almost like- And we are so, we, most people [00:44:30] do not realize that we don't need to judge the people outside of the Christian community, right? We've, we're a lot of fear-based, even now we're coming up to municipal elections in Canada this [00:44:40] fall, and-

[00:44:40] KYLE: Yeah

[00:44:40] GARY: you know, we're gonna be worried about who gets in, and those are important things, and if anyone's willing to run in Chilliwack, I would love to support great people running. So far the slate looks, there's, uh, one [00:44:50] fellow running, Steve Czech.

[00:44:51] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:44:52] GARY: I've heard

[00:44:52] KYLE: he's running. He was gonna come on the podcast and do an interview, and then he bailed on me, and so he said he can do it after the election.

[00:44:56] I'm like, "I don't know. He's not-"

[00:44:57] GARY: No, no, he should come on before.

[00:44:58] KYLE: He doesn't want to.

[00:44:59] GARY: He can come on before. He'll- He [00:45:00] said he- ... for sure lose a few votes if he comes on

[00:45:02] KYLE: here with us Exactly. That's probably why he canceled.

[00:45:03] GARY: Good news, bad news. Just getting the news, Steve.

[00:45:05] KYLE: He's like, "I'll come after the election."

[00:45:06] Man. I'm like, "This guy definitely did not want-" Come on. "... was not ready for my questions."

[00:45:09] GARY: He obviously [00:45:10] listened to one of the shows and thought, "Man, if I sound like that, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not electable." No, I think he's very electable. I think he's a good guy.

[00:45:17] KYLE: Think I should run?

[00:45:18] GARY: Yeah. Yeah, you [00:45:20] totally should.

[00:45:20] KYLE: For council or board, school board?

[00:45:21] GARY: Run for city council.

[00:45:23] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:45:23] GARY: Yeah

[00:45:25] KYLE: If I have a good campaign manager, I would be open to it.

[00:45:28] GARY: Okay. There's probably somebody listening [00:45:30] that will be willing to do that. I did have somebody volunteer to be my campaign manager if I ran. Okay. Yeah.

[00:45:35] KYLE: How much does it cost, do you know?

[00:45:37] GARY: It won't cost you anything.

[00:45:38] KYLE: It's all by donations?

[00:45:39] GARY: It'll be by [00:45:40] dona- You'll be fine. You'll get, you'll get donations if you run.

[00:45:42] KYLE: Huh. Interesting.

[00:45:43] GARY: It'll be a lot easier getting donations for if you run for city council than it is getting coaching clients, I can assure you that.

[00:45:49] KYLE: Why is that? [00:45:50]

[00:45:50] GARY: Because people in our community know how important it is to have pragmatic people that don't bring

[00:45:55] KYLE: their- And they don't know how important coaching is.

[00:45:57] GARY: No, and they do not know how important coaching is.[00:46:00]

[00:46:02] People care a lot more about... And the, and I think it, some of that's healthy. I think people care about our community, and nobody cares, or I [00:46:10] don't care, I don't care how left-leaning you are or how woke you are if you're on council. I do not care. But I do care if that's your agenda at council. Yes. Right? So, like, people shouldn't [00:46:20] know whether you're right-leaning or left-leaning if you're on city council.

[00:46:22] Like, city council's job in our community is to provide recreation and parks. It's to provide, um, proper sewage [00:46:30] and paved roads, and not too narrow of roads, so you can hardly drive your vehicle down it. Just try some, like, things like that, right? You know what I mean? It's the practical- Yeah ... [00:46:40] boring things of a community as a general rule.

[00:46:42] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:46:42] GARY: Yes, parks, you know, pools, all that. It's to be good stewards of resources. You could be a left-wing wing [00:46:50] nut, or you could be a right-wing, you know, Nazi, and you can be a fiscally responsible person. And so those, your political leanings per se at a partisan level should not matter. That's why I'm really [00:47:00] against Can- uh, Chilliwack people talking about running a slate.

[00:47:04] KYLE: Yeah, yeah. As, as like a, under a party.

[00:47:06] GARY: As under a party banner. I don't think party politics has any place at [00:47:10] a city council. I'm very thankful our community has not had that so far.

[00:47:13] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:47:13] GARY: For that reason alone, I'd wanna run, if I knew that people were gonna start doing that. We don't need, we don't need to polarize more [00:47:20] things in our community.

[00:47:20] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:47:21] GARY: And I have no idea how Jeff Shields votes federally or provincially. I have no idea how Bud votes, or Nicole, or any of those other people on city council. I have a [00:47:30] pretty good idea how Chris Kloot votes. But, You know what I mean? But a lot of those people- Yeah ... I don't know. But if they're, even Jason Lum, right?

[00:47:37] It's like, you know, he ran as an independent I think at one point. Yeah. [00:47:40] And did pretty well. Um, his political leanings may not be completely aligned with mine, but as a general rule, he wants what's best for our community. He's gonna make pragmatic decisions. And so if you were willing to s- take [00:47:50] that stand, I mean, I, how would you feel?

[00:47:51] What banner would you run underneath if you were gonna run? Like, would you say

[00:47:54] KYLE: you- Probably f- probably fiscally conservative- Okay ... as like the biggest thing. The

[00:47:57] GARY: biggest thing? Okay.

[00:47:57] KYLE: Yeah. And just like let's, let's [00:48:00] minimize, uh, the amount of red tape and bureaucracy-

[00:48:05] GARY: In our community? ...

[00:48:05] KYLE: in our community and in our, and how, and how it's run from a, like a, [00:48:10] a government s-

[00:48:10] GARY: What would that look like practically?

[00:48:13] KYLE: Um, I don't know. I think it would go- going into departments and different areas and being like, "Hey, how can we [00:48:20] create efficiencies here?" Like, what, how are things being done? Like, what, what is the workflow of things? Yeah. Like, w- w- um, why are people cer- doing certain jobs? Like, just a very [00:48:30] practically, just look at what's-

[00:48:31] GARY: Nobody likes those questions, just so you know.

[00:48:33] Nobody likes those questions.

[00:48:34] KYLE: Yeah. Okay. But it, it, if- It's awesome, but nobody likes those questions ... if you're a ruler, uh, or a leader of a company or whatever else like that, it's your [00:48:40] responsibility to do that, especially for city council or, or whatever you're leading. And I think, like let's say you can cut, you know, spending by 30% or [00:48:50] 40%- Yeah

[00:48:51] and you know, you can use that money other-

[00:48:53] GARY: Or even 10%.

[00:48:54] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:48:54] GARY: Our budget's hundreds of millions of dollars.

[00:48:56] KYLE: Yeah. Exactly. Just, like I think that's just pr- a very good-

[00:48:58] GARY: We are, and [00:49:00] I believe, and there again, I'd be curious to know the councilors take at the moment, or even if they have an opinion. Like the mayor's, Jason's- Mm

[00:49:05] opinion. He's gonna run for mayor, I think Jason Lum is. Um, I think Ken's stepping down. [00:49:10] Um, or he is stepping down. I wonder if, um, like I wonder what their view would be on even like how high property taxes are. Do they real- I think we're at the breaking point. Mm. I think especially on [00:49:20] the business side, but even on people's...

[00:49:22] Pe- like the percentage of what your income too much is going towards your city property taxes bill. Yeah. And if you agree with that, [00:49:30] you vote for me. If you don't, don't vote for me. Yeah. Like, is that, you know what I mean? If I did run, I would fully run on just-

[00:49:35] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:49:36] GARY: that, that platform, right?

[00:49:37] KYLE: Yeah. I, I, I think in those positions you're serving the people, [00:49:40] right?

[00:49:40] Yeah. And, and you're trying to help them get a good exchange, good for services.

[00:49:44] GARY: Yeah. Right? It's very complicated too, in the sense of you could be extremely sure and wanna hack [00:49:50] and whack, but you still need to do that in the framework of what's reasonable. Yeah. You still need to be a team player, right?

[00:49:56] And a lot of people that would take a hard line on the [00:50:00] fiscal conservative side might not realize that, you know, you just- Like you need to do it in a very orderly manner and a gentle manner.

[00:50:07] KYLE: And I think- Oh, yeah. How, how, how you go about communicating anything- Yeah ... is crucially [00:50:10] important.

[00:50:11] GARY: Yeah.

[00:50:11] KYLE: Um, but it doesn't change, I think, what, yeah, just practically needs to be done.

[00:50:15] Yeah. Like it's... If you're serving the people, and y- you know, if you're selling something [00:50:20] else, like you're selling a tractor to somebody, i- is it, you know, or running a tractor dealership, is it right to have those tractors being sold for $400,000 because you run a really, really bad operation and your [00:50:30] expenses are so high, and this is the only place you can buy tractors from?

[00:50:33] No. You'd be like, you know-

[00:50:35] GARY: That's the beauty of the free market, right? Exactly. Just let- There's no free market- ... it take care. It's just not happening ... on

[00:50:38] KYLE: the government side.

[00:50:38] GARY: No, there's not.

[00:50:39] KYLE: But [00:50:40] the-

[00:50:40] GARY: No, you know what there is on the government side? There's always a comparison to the worst government. All, all they will ever do- Mm-hmm

[00:50:46] is they will say, "In, in our Lower Mainland," now we're in the cheaper [00:50:50] end of the Lower Mainland, so it's not even fair, "we have raised the taxes the least of any municipality." To me, that is a horrible argument. I hate that.

[00:50:56] KYLE: Yeah. It's like saying, "I've been the, the... I, I've been-" "

[00:50:58] GARY: I'm the least of all the [00:51:00] criminals."

[00:51:00] Yeah. "I'm the best of all the criminals." Like, come on.

[00:51:01] KYLE: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. I wanna end with, um, an episode, a, a trailer for The [00:51:10] Furious Secure Show, um, for episode 57, uh, that's gonna be... come out today. So if you're listening to this today.

[00:51:17] GARY: Is it family-friendly, this clip?

[00:51:18] KYLE: No. Uh, the, the [00:51:20] f- clip is, um... I don't know.

[00:51:23] I haven't watched the trailer.

[00:51:24] GARY: Are you gonna play it now?

[00:51:25] KYLE: Yeah, I was gonna play it now.

[00:51:25] GARY: I wouldn't play it without-

[00:51:27] KYLE: Okay. I'll just- I don't, I- ... let people go to the episode.

[00:51:28] GARY: Yeah, I would just do

[00:51:29] KYLE: the [00:51:30] plug Um, but, um, and I know you've listened to half of it already, but, uh, the ti- and the title of the episode is...

[00:51:37] Let me find it here. Um, the [00:51:40] title is My Dad Beat Me Daily and I Still Chose to Forgive Him. Um, it's I Like Math by our uni degree tiles Nick. Uh, amazing, amazing story. I was so encouraged by [00:51:50] it. Okay. And, and the amount of, um, uh, just I guess hardship, and getting over it, and forgiving, and finding freedom, I think, [00:52:00] um, a, a lot of people will be able to relate to it.

[00:52:02] And, um-

[00:52:04] GARY: It's pretty graphic ...

[00:52:05] KYLE: but also, yeah, it is, it is. There's a lot ... There's graphic-ness- It is pretty wild ... and there's suffering, and so, uh-

[00:52:09] GARY: I [00:52:10] was listening to it while I was doing, uh, 50 hours of foster care training, and the, the, the... I was on the sexual abuse, uh, cha- uh, module, and it was just too much, man.

[00:52:19] KYLE: Could it have been

[00:52:19] GARY: the same time? Well, I was in [00:52:20] a dark spot, and I was like, "I'm done, though."

[00:52:21] KYLE: Yeah, I believe it.

[00:52:22] GARY: Went and got on the Peloton and- ... sweated all my angst.

[00:52:26] KYLE: I do that as... Yeah. Um, but it just, uh, absolutely a- [00:52:30] amazing, amazing, uh, uh, episode. So I am dropping it, not on Saturday, but today, uh, the day this is coming out.

[00:52:35] So if you're done listening to this, go check that out. It's just, it's super worth it.

[00:52:38] GARY: Just not with your kids. [00:52:40] It's not

[00:52:40] KYLE: kid- Don't listen to it with your kids ... not, not, not kid-friendly, for sure. No, do not listen to it with your kids. Um, and if you have sexual abuse in your past, uh, or your... yeah, things like that, it's gonna be a, it's obviously just [00:52:50] careful with that.

[00:52:50] But, um, yeah. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you have any questions, send them in. Uh, love to [00:53:00] get questions, uh, and we'll- Love criticism

[00:53:01] GARY: too ...

[00:53:02] KYLE: criticism too. That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:03] GARY: Love it.

[00:53:03] KYLE: Um, yeah. Till next time. Peace.[00:53:10]

[00:53:10] GARY: We going for lunch Kyle?

[00:53:11] KYLE: Yep[00:53:20]

[00:53:27] GARY: Where do you wanna go? [00:53:30] Where are your next meeting after lunch?

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