March 14, 2026

Why Sexuality Has Become a Church-Breaking Issue | Rev. Aaron Vriesman - EP 49

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AARON: [00:00:00] So I'm, I'm, um, not, uh, I sometimes have to think a little bit before I answer, so if I pause a little bit that, that'd be, that'd be why. But

KYLE: yeah, I think that's a good thing, right? To think before you speak.

AARON: Okay. Bible

KYLE: says

AARON: something

KYLE: about it. I, I read. Yeah. Something like that. Okay. Okay. I always open my, uh, before I set recording the podcast with, with a prayer, uh, I just ask for a blessing.

You okay? If we do that?

AARON: Awesome.

KYLE: Okay. Emily Foard, thank you for today. Uh, thank you that Aaron and I get to, uh, hang up this morning and, uh, have a conversation, uh, that is recorded, that we'll publish later on. I would ask that you would please give us your Holy Spirit, uh, and guide us and give us, um, clarity of mind, uh, and, uh, be able to give answers and just have a discussion that glorifies you and that is helpful for whoever listens down the road.

Help us also just have peace, [00:01:00] not to worry about how we're viewed, uh, or about our image so that we just have a humble heart and attitude. Um, and, uh, yeah, just for your, for your blessing on, on, on this, uh, conversation here today. And your name I pray. Amen.

AARON: Amen.

KYLE: Okay. I will roll into an interview and then we will just get into it.

Um, again, like I said at the earlier call, very conversational style. Feel free to throw it back on me. Um, and, and we're just, we're just having a chat, so

AARON: cool.

KYLE: Okay. Welcome back guys. Another episode of The Furious Curious Show. My guest today is Reverend Aaron Reisman. Uh, since 2006, he has served as the pastor of North Blended Christian Reform Church in, uh, grand Rapids.

Aaron is a frequent contributor to the banner. And a leader within the Abide Project. It's a group that's dedicated to upholding the biblical confessions of the CRC in North America. And he is [00:02:00] also active in the online sense-making community, engaging in conversations about how Christianity intersects with our secular age.

So we have lot to cover today regarding theology, culture, and uh, his own story. So thank you for being here, Aaron. I appreciate it.

AARON: Yeah, thanks for having me. Look, glad to be here.

KYLE: You being a pastor, was that something that you thought you would, were gonna become growing up? Did you, did you grow up in the CRC.

AARON: I grew up in the CRCI did not anticipate being a pastor. This was something that, uh, God directed me into. Um, I was aiming for other things. I was, I was interested in filmmaking. I was interested in being a professor. I was interested in philosophy. I was interested in psychology. And at various times I pursued those, those, uh, fields.

And, um, God had a way of just shutting the doors to all of those. And, uh, [00:03:00] ministry was what was kind of left open. And so I just started walking there and. Here I am. It's been, it's been 20 years at North Blending now, so

KYLE: yes. Alright. One church, one Churchill. Is that quite common in your denomination that people stay?

Is it one church the whole time, or did lots of

AARON: switch it's becoming more common? Uh, I would say probably an average stay is 10 years or something like that.

KYLE: Okay.

AARON: But, um, but yeah, no, um, this is, this seems to be where God wants me to be. There's been times I've thrown my name out there a time or two and, um, there were a couple times when I thought, boy, this, this interview went well.

Um, this might be my next church and nope, it was went to somebody else. So I'm, uh, I'm still here and people are, are really happy with me here. They're begging me to stay. They, they threw me a celebration for my 20 year anniversary and, uh, that was really nice. So it's a good church and I'm, I'm not eager to leave or anything.

KYLE: Fair [00:04:00] enough. Yeah. How did you end up becoming a Christian yourself?

AARON: I was raised in the faith. Um, I had, I had parents that had a high view of scripture and wanted to instill that in their kids. Um, I was homeschooled kindergarten through 12th grade, and so the Bible was very much a part of our curriculum and upbringing.

Scripture memory was there. Um, regular bible studies and devotions were a part of a daily routine. Um, and my parents, my parents did a really good job of not just saying, this is what we. This is, this is the way it is, but this is why we're living this out. The Bible says this, therefore we're, we're going to do things this way.

So, okay. Um, that was so I think because of my parents' authenticity, um, that, that got instilled into me. [00:05:00]

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: So, okay.

KYLE: And when did you become your faith? Like, when did you remember having faith in Christ yourself?

AARON: Yeah, that was kind of gradual. Um, I don't really have a moment or anything. I remember a number of times as a kid at various Bible schools and Bible clubs, you know, saying the prayer to ask Jesus in my heart.

Um, but, uh, but yeah, in, in high school I went through kind of a crisis that, um. That really started to, um, test my faith. And so, um, it was eventually gradually after that that the faith started to become more, more, uh, me and, um, and less, less just something I was riding on somebody else's coattails with.

So,

KYLE: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So the reason I, uh, asked to interview you, uh, was because I did [00:06:00] a, a deep research report on Dutch reformed, uh, people, uh, in Gemini, uh, the AI tool. And, uh, it came out with like, I don't know, a a hundred plus pages and one of your, uh, and your name was in there and the Abide project, um, which is something that I, I believe you started in your church because of, um, some of the sexual orientation stuff that's going on.

Can, can you speak to that, how that started and what that's about?

AARON: Yeah. It was, it was not. It was not me. It was me and a, a bunch of other ministers and, um, a couple lay leaders, but mostly ministers who we just, we were concerned about things that were going on in the Christian Reform Church. Um,

like,

AARON: but in particular there was, there was a, a congregation in Grand Rapids that, um, ordained, uh, ordained someone in a same-sex marriage.

And that was not against, [00:07:00] or that went against where the CRC stood. And this church was arguing that, uh, the. The position that the CRC had was just pastoral advice and that they could ignore it. Um, and me and many others were, were thought that, no, this is a deal breaker. Um, if this is the way the CRC is gonna be, then we're gonna have to, we're gonna have some serious discussions need to happen.

Um, so, um, me and a bunch of other pastors, we kind of formed this group. Eventually we started calling ourselves the Abide Project, but we just started gathering on Zoom and we just started to talk about our concerns. And of over time people said, you know, I would be willing to put a website together. I would be ready, willing to write articles, you know, I would be willing to, um, chair a, a steering committee.

You know, so it [00:08:00] started to get off the ground that way. Um. So that, that was, that's kind of the, that's the, the overview of it anyway.

KYLE: Okay. So basically it was the people in the CRC denomination that believed in the, I would say the Bible's view of marriage that came together to like, fight, uh, for this inside the denomination or what, what did it all, what was the purpose of it?

AARON: So the goal, the goal was to, to uphold the biblical view of human sexuality. The beau uh, the beautiful, we added beautiful in there too. 'cause we think that this is, um, not just biblical, but it's something that is part of God's design for us. And so we wanted to uphold that within the Christian Reform Church.

Um, through doctrine and discipleship and discipline. So that, in that includes saying no to [00:09:00] congregations that are violating that. Um, but also recognizing that, um, there's sexual sexual brokenness and sin in all of our congregations everywhere. And so we need to just be discipling people in those, in those areas too, as well as just to have the right positions on paper.

Um, we, we need to have the right positions on paper, but we need to be living that out. We need to be discipling people. And, uh, and so that was, that was the goal. That was the idea there.

KYLE: Okay. And was it, has it been successful or how do you measure that?

AARON: Yeah. Um, so let's see. It, it's, we, we've, we've been very pleased with how.

How things have gone on the Senate level, let's say that, um, there was this major report that was put together called the Human Sexuality [00:10:00] Report, or HSR and, uh, that came to Senate 2022. That report said that the, the confessions of the Cary Reform Church, um, uphold a biblical view and always have. And Senate 22 adopted that report.

Senate 2022 also said to this congregation, you may not ordain anyone in a same sex relationship and that that current office bear needs to be removed. And, um, and so there was, there was doctrine and, and discipline. The next year, um. The next year kind of felt like trying to defend what that was. So I was at that Senate as well as Senate 22 and um, and there were all of these [00:11:00] challenges from a church polity standpoint about whether Senate could make this kind of claim or not, and whether this was son nautical overreach into a congregational area.

So it was a lot of church order details into a lot of those arguments. But, uh, the short of it is that Senate 2023 said, no, this is a confessional matter. So when you are a pastor, an elder, or a deacon, and you sign on the line saying, I agree with the views and doctrines of the Cary Reform Church, that includes this.

So we, we, it was a confessional matter is what we call it. Um, and then, um, and then, uh, the, the classes that was part of this congregation, the classes is like a diocese. Um, the classes was refusing to do any discipline and really [00:12:00] kind of dragging their feet. Um, I think they would see it differently, but, uh, from, from the communications that they put out, they were, they were basically saying that, uh, we're not gonna do anything about it.

Well, Senate 2024 then. Said, um, any office bearer anywhere because other, other congregations and other class were doing things too. This was not just one place anymore. It was starting to spread. So Senate said any office bearer that is openly against Senate's position on marriage and sexuality is on limited suspension, meaning they cannot be delegated to higher assemblies.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: So if you're a council member, you can't be delegated to a classes. If you're in classes, you can't be delegated to, to Senate, and you cannot serve on denominational boards [00:13:00] that oversee denominational agencies. And, uh, that at that point, that's when, that's when people who thought differently started to leave.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: Um, up until then, it was kind of a, it was kind of a, we'll, we'll figure a way around this. Um, will, will, uh. We will, we'll just file of what we call a grava and which is like an exception, and then I'll still get to serve and all of this. But, um, after that limited suspension, that's when that's when things started to sort out.

Um,

KYLE: okay.

AARON: So that's,

KYLE: how do you think, how you think it got this spot? How do you think it gotta to this spot? Like the fact that you're having some churches that are, are, are, are, uh, doing same-sex marriages? Is that what it is? Or were they allowing uh, um, people that were living in, uh, uh, um, same-sex marriages to become pastors, deacons and elders?

What was the specifics?

AARON: There was one, there was [00:14:00] the, the one that really launched it, there was a, a church in Grand Rapids called Neland Avenue who ordained someone in the role of a deacon who was in a same-sex marriage.

KYLE: Okay.

AARON: That was kind of what got it going. Um, lots of, lots of communications were sent to them and they.

This council basically said, no, we think this is what God wants us to do, and we're gonna do it. We don't, we don't care what, what you think.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um,

KYLE: because he would've already been, before he was a deacon, he would've already been a member. Right. Like so it's allowing someone to become a member that's in the same sex marriage.

AARON: Yes. Right.

KYLE: And, and would it have been pretty common knowledge that there were some churches in your denomination that were teaching that this was now Okay.

AARON: You know, it was one of those things that kind of gradually happened. And so I, I tell people that if, if they would've played their cards differently, they might've [00:15:00] been able to get away with this.

But what they did, but what they did was they basically stuck their foot over the line and said, what are you gonna do about it?

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: If they had let things go and been patient about it. They might have, they might have been able to get away with this in the end. Um, but, uh, but when you ordain someone, um, in this case it was a woman in a same-sex marriage to the office of a deacon where you have to sign the covenant for office bearers, that is a clear violation of, of the rules that's undeniable.

And uh, and they basically said, yeah, we don't, we don't really care. We think this is where God wants us to go. And so we don't care what it does to the denomination.

KYLE: And what about like, I'm assuming, you know, some of these people on a personal level, either of close by to them and, and have personal discussions with them.

What do they do with scripture? They just, uh, [00:16:00] um, and, and what it says there.

AARON: So, oh boy. We could, we could talk a lot about this. Uh,

KYLE: just confusing for me that it, it has gotten, had slid in that this, you know, you, of you and your church and what you teach in this denomination. Uh, and then you have another church that's, I would say, very far left of that to the point where they're already, you know, putting people in, in, in office.

Uh, and so I'm curious, why, why is there such a big divide there? Like usually denomination is more, you know, on the same page, uh, especially like a smaller denomination.

AARON: So I, I, I think all of, all of the opposing arguments boil down to something of this. Paul wrote that God didn't,

KYLE: oh,

AARON: it's something of that nature.

So, um, Paul, Paul had this in mind. Therefore, it's only what these verses say to our limited [00:17:00] to. Abusive situations, you know? Um, so, but the, it always, the, the arguments always have to bring it to Paul as opposed to God making that distinction there. So that this part of the bible is, is just human, it's not divine.

KYLE: Okay.

AARON: Um, so, and, and it, it, it all boils down to something of that, that Paul wrote it, God did.

KYLE: Okay. And would they be really lax in other areas as well, uh, of their theology and or Christian living, or would they be just as, um, strict or, you know, have the same views in all the other areas as you, as you would have,

AARON: you know, um, there have been some prominent individuals who have kind of gone off the deep end into other forms of, of, uh.

Theological aberrations, like, uh, [00:18:00] universalism, um, uh, baptismal regeneration, other things like that. So there have been some, some of that. There has been some of that. But, uh, a lot of these people are just really kind, friendly people, easy to, a lot of them are easy to get along with. And, uh, you know, they, they would like to play the card of, Hey, why, why are you being so mean to us?

You know, that kind of thing. So, so in order to stand up, you had to, you had to play your cards carefully because, because you didn't want this to be about just, you know, being the

KYLE: personal, personal thing.

AARON: Yes, it's right. Exactly. Okay. So, um. So we, we, we were very careful about our arguments and, and, uh, how we said what we said because we didn't want it to be a [00:19:00] personal vendetta in any way, shape or fashion.

KYLE: Yeah. You have any ideas how a church gets to this point where you, I'm assuming 30 years ago, 40 years ago, this couldn't have been imagined? Uh, and, you know, all the members would've said, no, we, we uphold to this, this view of, uh, what the scripture says about sexuality. And now they're you, where they are now.

Like there was a, how can you, maybe there's another church out there that you could give advice to of like, Hey, how do you catch yourself from like sliding that far? Like, it's surprising to me when a, when a church can slide that far, even in a short amount of time,

AARON: um, I'll say, here's a, an example. I had a new, I didn't go to Calvin Seminary.

I went to Western Theological Seminary in Holland and I had a New Testament professor there. Who, when I had him, um, he was orthodox on marriage and sexuality after I graduated. [00:20:00] Um, he had, he had a child who came out of the closet. He then wrote the book, the Evangelical Argument, in favor of same-Sex Marriage.

And, and, uh, I I, and there's a lot of stories like that. I had a son or a daughter or a friend or a parent come out of the closet and boy they love Jesus. Um, who am I to say that their, their faith is not authentic. You know, that they can't be Christians just as much as me and their marriages and seem to be better than some heterosexual marriages, you know?

Um, that. That was, that's the main, main, main line of, of what happens,

KYLE: right?

AARON: So what we need to do is we need a, [00:21:00] we need a robust view of sin where we have to be able to say, sin is sin no matter who commits it. Even if it's my, if it's somebody near and dear to me, just because they do it, that doesn't make it okay.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: That doesn't make it justified. And we have to have those, those standards no matter who, who they are, no matter who it is that

KYLE: or what

AARON: the center is that you're attached to. So I think that, that tho that would be the main reason why people, people slide into that.

KYLE: Okay. So I think it's probably the latter more than anything OO of actually having a, a.

Calling sin for what it is. Um, and, and not allowing, like that must have been weakened already before to, to a degree, before people started accepting or being okay with saying like, Hey, I need to find this sort of middle ground because I want to not [00:22:00] make my loved one feel crappy. Um,

AARON: exactly. It's, um, um, some people would make it to be that. Um, I, I, I think a lot of this also boils down to identity. Who are, who are we? As human beings and as Christians. So, um, there's, there's lots of, there's, there's a, there's it's debate of whether you can be a gay Christian, you know, even if you're celibate, can you still call yourself gay?

And, you know, but I, what do what do you think? What's that?

KYLE: What do you think on that?

AARON: Um, I think that, uh, being a gay Christian makes about as much sense as, um, being an alcoholic Christian. Um, yeah. I mean, if you're defining yourself by, by, [00:23:00] by, well, first of all, okay. I reject any identity that is based on how you feel.

Okay. Um, one of the, one of my personal challenges is depression. And so I have to deal with lots of feelings all the time that, um, that tell me I am, I'm worthless, I'm nothing. I am a failure. I'm a loser. All, you name it, ev anything negative. And so what I've had to learn over time is that my feelings are not my identity.

So I reject. I reject any identity. Whether, whether it's sexual or depressive or whatever, that's based on a feeling. You can be defined by your actions. You know, if you're, if you've committed murder, you are a murderer. If [00:24:00] you commit adultery, you're an adulterer. But, uh, if you're, if you abuse alcohol, you're an alcoholic, but, but, uh, but not anything based on feelings.

So if you're somebody who's a Christian and you struggle with same sex attractions, um, you are not defined by that feeling that that's a feeling, that's not an action. So, um, so I reject, I reject any feeling, any identity based on feelings. Is that, am I making sense?

KYLE: Yeah. I'm missing, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like how you explained that.

Okay. And, and how do you teach your church now that. Christianity itself is not about, you know, um, the Orthodox view of marriage or that we protect human life or, you know, some of the other cultural things, but that it's still about our own faith and repentance, um, and faith in Christ and our relationship with him.

And, you know, the [00:25:00] fruits of the spirit. Because what I see in a lot of Christian circles that are, you know, have an orthodox view of marriage, uh, or, you know, believe in human life, uh, uh, being valuable at all points, that that becomes their religion. Um, and that's the thing that they feel good about, but they've actually still missed the point and have become, you know, pharisees to a certain degree and saying like, Hey, these are the, we do these things now.

You know, other churches don't, so we're we're better than them. Um, but they still miss the boat completely. Do you think about that and, and how do you press, how do you teach that in your own church?

AARON: Yeah, those are, those are things that I'm. That are on my mind regularly actually. And, um, my, my current hope thought strategy is that I need to be preaching the gospel, which is Jesus Christ paying for all of our sins and that we have, we have that victory over sin and death by [00:26:00] believing in him through faith alone and by believing we have eternal life and victory over sin and death.

So that's the gospel grace by what God has done, not by what I've done. And so grace. Now how do we live? Because, because that is when we talk about identity, that is our identity. I am a Christian. I am in Christ. I have been, I've been crucified with Christ. I've been raised with Christ, I've been seated with him in the heavenly places.

So that's my identity. So as that, as having that identity, how should, how I, how do I live now out, not out of, not because hell is being hanging over my head, but because I'm thankful and I want to love God as he has loved me. So here's how, here's, here's the way that we, ways that we live because of that identity, but to [00:27:00] always start with grace and not, and not just go straight to law because the, we don't preach, Christianity doesn't preach be good people.

We preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified and what that means. Yeah. So I think that's my, we,

KYLE: we preach we can't be good people. Jesus was good for us.

AARON: Yes. Right. I mean, yeah. I mean this is something that I've evolved into over time too, but just the importance of the importance of starting with the gospel in every, when, when it comes to any command that, that we put out there or any value that we have.

Um, so one way to look at it is that when you love somebody, what is important to them becomes important to you. When I married my wife, she had a cat that [00:28:00] I think was pure evil. Um, the cat would hiss and, and swipe at me and just, you know, but because this cat mattered to her, the cat mattered to me as much as I didn't like the cat.

Um, when you follow Jesus Christ. Suddenly what become, what's important to him now becomes important to me. So he said, human life has value. I'm gonna honor that even if there's people that I think maybe don't deserve to live. He said, marriage is sacred and sexuality is sacred. Okay. Um, regardless of what I feel about that, I'm gonna honor that, you know.

And when you, when you love somebody and when you have allegiance to them, what's important to them becomes important to you. And so because of the gospel, we have that relationship, that attachment to Christ what's important to him is now important to us.

KYLE: Yeah. And that his authority supersedes [00:29:00] our ideas,

AARON: right?

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. What, what's the, what toll has this had on you in, in, in this fight, uh, the bride project and everything that's gone out on the last four years? Because you're also a full-time pastor. You have your own church, and now you're having the denominational fight going on, or I don't know if fight's the right word, but, uh, uh, um, how do, how did, how have you navigated that?

AARON: Um, yeah. Can I have one second here?

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Sorry, still getting over a cold. Um,

KYLE: no, no worries.

AARON: So the Abide project has not, it's, it, it takes some time, but it's, it hasn't taken like a boatload of time. [00:30:00] It's, it's, um, what a bunch of us, a bunch of pastors and other lay leaders. It's the time that we put into it. So, um, it's a shared, it's a shared time. Um, I also, I also am in a different situation where, um, I don't have kids of my own, so I have free time to do extra writing and research and other things like that too.

Um, and I also serve a church that is. Just very gracious. And so, um, um, I don't have a lot of high maintenance people that demand to be visited every week or anything like that, so, so there's some flexibility there as well. Um, so that's, that's mostly how I've Yeah. Navigated that.

KYLE: Yeah. And what, what's, what's the, in your mind, the value of a denomination?

Because it's, [00:31:00] a lot of times they're all over the place and they're, you know, you have to get a whole bunch of guys to, um, agree to a bunch of, um, rules, which often, um, from what I know about sins in classes is they're actually just nuances of God's law and, and, uh, in, in certain areas. And, you know, they want, a church wants specifics on how we're dealing with a certain issue, but they actually, it takes away from.

The actual people in the church, uh, um, side of things and, and, you know, caring for the, uh, the flock, uh, um, so to speak. And too much is focused on the denomination as a whole and keeping people inside this denomination. Um, what's in your mind, what's the value of the denomination and when does it go too far?

Like, is there, is there a spot where it's actually, uh, not helpful ultimately for the people?

AARON: I think that being a denomination is fulfilling the command to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. [00:32:00] So when it, when it says that, I think that when you are joined together with people from in the Christian Reform Church case all over the continent, lots of different languages and lots of different people in different settings, but we come together and say, okay, we're gonna do church together, we're gonna submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Um, let's put some things down on paper so that we can, we can agree on what the expectations are and, um, and let's be the body of Christ together. Let's pool our resources together. Let's do ministry together. Let's, let's speak together on issues that are important to Christians. Um, I think that, uh, I think that accountability is huge in a denomination.

I, I tell people that if I am, if I start preaching things that are not true, like I start saying like, [00:33:00] you know, the virgin birth is, you know, not essential. Well, even if I'm a really nice guy and my council and my church love me, um, I have a classist that's gonna step in and say, Aaron, you can't teach that.

And you need to shape up or ship out, you know, so there's, there's accountability on multiple levels in a denomination, which I think is incredibly valuable. 'cause there have been a few,

KYLE: and your church, and your church couldn't do that. Like, why couldn't your church do that?

AARON: Um, I've seen it where churches just love their pastor.

He's a excellent speaker. He brings people in, he engages the young people. And, and, uh, what, what he did or said was not that big a deal. We can work with that. Or even just what went on with sexuality in the Christian Reform Church, there was, there was a church that was, that was not behaving according to our agreements and our standards.[00:34:00]

And so Senate stepped in and said, no, you can't do that. And, and um, and there was accountability that way. So. I'm a big believer in denominations because, I mean, first of all, I think it's great that we submit to one another out of reverence for Christ, but also for the accountability thing. Everybody needs accountability.

Um, absolutely everybody.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: So, um, in a denomination you have people, you have people watching your back.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you've, you've argued that different, that that different views and sexuality, ac actually represent two fundamentally Inca in incompatible religions. Um, can, can you unpack that? Why do you see, uh, the sexual issue as a primary doctrinal issue rather than a secondary issue?

Uh, agree to disagree on?

AARON: Yeah. [00:35:00] Um, I'll go back to, I think that what we're dealing with here are two. Fundamentally different views of humanity and what it means to be Christian. So one view says that feelings are identity. The other view says feelings are not your identity. Your identity is Christ. And I think, I think that is the fundamental issue here.

Um, and there's when once you say your feelings are your identity, and that is, and that is not only valid, like all your feelings are automatically valid, but that they're, they're God-given and blessable. Now there's all kinds of, now there's all kinds of things that. That, uh, you can [00:36:00] make a part of your identity and say, Hey, um, I can, I can do X, Y, or Z because this is, this is who I am.

You know? Yeah. Um, so I think it goes down to our theological anthropology or our doctrine of man, what is it? What is man in the state of sin and what is man in the state of, of redemption and righteousness? So, um, I think it go boils down to those two things. That's the short version anyway. Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah.

Okay. And more of a niche question pastoring in, in, uh, Huntsville, Michigan, uh, which is a hub, I think of the Dutch perform tradition, um, comes with unique, uh, cultural expectations. How do you distinguish between cultural Christianity versus actual Christianity? Do, do you come up against that?

AARON: Yes. Um, this [00:37:00] is, I don't know if this is directly answering your question so you can redirect me if, if I don't, but, um, in West Michigan Grand Rapid between Grand Rapids and the lake here, um, this is historically a Dutch reformed and Christian reformed community.

And so lots of people, if you are a native here you are, you are very likely to have grown up reformed or Christian reformed or somewhere in that reformed denomination. And so right now in our area, the churches that are booming and thriving are the non-denominational. You know, mega churches that I, I would refer to as like the Walmart churches.

Um, and, and those are the ones that are growing most and fastest right now. There's some Wesleyan churches that are growing and, [00:38:00] and really fast right now too because, because I think that when you are raised a certain way, um, it, it becomes a, been there, done that there's some sort of novelty about starting something new in a new area.

So if you look at the Southern Baptist Convention, the fast, they're growing fastest in New England right now, and the Catholic church are, is growing fastest in certain places of the south. Baptist Stronghold because it's new, it's different. It's something, it's something that's

KYLE: novel,

AARON: cultural, you know?

So, um, so the challenge is, I think the challenge is to bring people back to the Gospel and Christ himself and explain that. Explain the reasons why we do the things that we do. You [00:39:00] know, so there's a reason why the sermon is the centerpiece of a worship service. Um, there's a reason why we say the Apostles Creed and we follow the Heidelberg Catechism and things like that because it ties us to the Universal Church, um, of all times and places, um, Christians all over the world.

Agree with this, you know, we're gonna say that we're gonna summarize that gospel together this way. Um, and people have died for these words. You say these things in certain places, you can be shot on the spot. Yeah. So this is, this is big important stuff that we're reciting to. Um, I'm not sure if I answered your question or not, but, uh,

KYLE: yeah, more of like what, what's cultural rules and what's, you know, actually the bible and, and, and differentiating those two and putting emphasis on what's actually Im important.

Um, and, and you're saying that a lot of it is [00:40:00] people follow the novel, uh, of new, um, I guess my question was a little bit more directed to, uh, do you see people, you know, pushing or following certain traditions or cultural norms and, and putting them under the label of Christianity, because that's what they've always grown up with, but actually are, you know, mi missing the point still.

AARON: Um, there are,

there are some and, and they're just not coming to mind right now. Um,

KYLE: I. Okay, I'll transition. What, what, what about biblical illiteracy? Where, where do you see that in your own, in your own church? Yes. Uh,

AARON: um,

KYLE: because I feel like a lot of these [00:41:00] things that we're talking about are, because there aren't convictions from the people themselves, um, from reading their own bible and from their own prayer life.

Um, and then with that going to church, but more going to church is like, you know, the Rotary Club that you go on Sundays and, you know, and you might, you know, sing a couple songs during the week or, you know, go to a, a church event. But it's not actually Christianity, it's just a, a cultural thing that you do.

AARON: Sure. Um,

I, one, one thing that, um, one thing that, um, I think is. Maybe particular to West Michigan, maybe the Midwest is there's, there's a, an expectation of being nice where you, you get [00:42:00] along, um, to a fault.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Even to the point where, um, you have some, you have some stuff that you should be dealing with. Yeah. You know, if, if somebody sins against you, you go and work it out between the two of you.

If not, then take a couple others along the Matthew 18.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Principle and, um, that never happens here. Um,

KYLE: okay.

AARON: Or rarely happens. Um, there, there are people who will, will be nice and friendly and kind to your face Yeah. But are actually really angry with you over something that you said or did. Long ago.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, and so, and so there are a number of pastors who have served in this area in West Michigan who are not from this area, and they don't know how to navigate that. [00:43:00]

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: They expect that if, if you have a problem with me, you're gonna let me know. Whereas I grew up in this area. I know that if people have a problem with you, there might not, they might not feel comfortable sharing that with you.

So I have to, I have to always be saying, um, uh, you know, I am always saying to my elders, how am I doing? Is there anything I should know about? Do you have any concerns? And to give people permission to say, Hey, I'm not on board with this, or, I didn't really like it that you said that. Um, because otherwise they'll, they'll feel like they shouldn't.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, so, um. There's maybe an example of a cultural thing that, um, has kind of gone off the, the rails biblically.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Because when, when you sin against somebody, and this is bound to happen or offend somebody, [00:44:00] you need to reconcile and not just pretend that everything's fine.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: You know? Um,

KYLE: or if you, or if you of an issue with somebody else.

AARON: Right.

KYLE: Yeah. And so do you, do you preach about that then on the, from, from your pulpit as like, you know, this is a cultural sin, so to speak in your area and say, Hey guys, we need to, we need to change our ways here. This is, this isn't how scriptures teach us how to live as Christians.

AARON: I've mentioned it from the pulpit.

I haven't had a sermon devoted to it, but I have preached these things from the pulpit that we don't do this. And we really need to, because this is what, this is what biblically it, it needs to be.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: Um, and I've also, I've also tried to stress to people many times that, um, I will apologize for stepping on anybody's toes or neglecting something I will apologize for, for anything because, well, I should say [00:45:00] anything.

I will not apologize for my beliefs or who I am in Christ or who God is and what he says. But, um, if you wanna, if, if I said something in a unhelpful way, I'd be happy to apologize for that because the relationship is more important to me than being Right.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Or, you know, to have that, that pride or whatever.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, so I, I try to, I try to lead by example that way, so that. If, if you, if I do something wrong, if I drop the ball somewhere, let me know. I'd be happy to apologize for that.

KYLE: Yeah. But it also seems like there's a, like a high need in the culture that I recognize, but in the Dutch reform circles here as well, is to, uh, be accepted and be liked and, and not have conflict, like a high conflict avoidance kind of culture, which is, is ironic.

I was reading Galatians yesterday in the first chapter, uh, it says in chapter in, uh, verse 10, Paul saying, obviously I'm not trying to win the approval of people, but of [00:46:00] God, if pleasing people were my goal, I would not be Christ's servant. And, you know, and of course, Christ is who we serve above anybody else, but that, that's an attitude that, you know, war, war mindset, which I think, uh, uh, we'll get to that you've referred to as well before in some of your writings that seems to have, you know, gone by the wayside.

AARON: It, it, it has, um. So there's, there's kind of a battle within me where it's like, alright, if, if everybody's getting along and doing and, and seems like things are going well, that makes me feel restful. But then I think maybe it means I'm not pushing them hard enough because, because if I was pushing 'em hard enough, then people would be upset with me because what the Bible says is inherently, um,

KYLE: clear

AARON: upsetting to sinners, right?

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. That's you. Yeah. Yeah.

AARON: So, um, so it, there's, there's [00:47:00] this, there's an inward battle for me in terms of am I being a good pastor? Um, if, if things aren't going well, I'm, I'm sort of like, oh man, I, I should have led this way, or said this or not said that. If things, if things, if things aren't going well, I, I kind of have the same, same thoughts, but.

But what, what is it that being a good pastor means? And and do you gauge that by how, how upset people are with you? Um,

KYLE: is that how you gauge that if you're being a good pastor or not?

AARON: Um, no. This is, this is an area of weakness of mine that, uh, I am still, still trying to work on. Um, I, uh, uh, my, one of my faults is that, um, I, I like to make people happy.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: So I, I might have been a good [00:48:00] customer service representative in, in another time and place. Yeah. But, uh, so that is something that I need to. I need to work on.

KYLE: Hmm hmm. So do you find certain pieces of the Bible hard to preach on then? What That are really just like, you know, PO pointed, you know, uh, like when you say, when you come across the passage in Matthew, many, many, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, we have prophesied in your name and then miracles of your name.

And he's gonna say, I don't know you. Like, was that, would that be a, a harder passage for you, for you to preach on with what you're sharing as a, as a character, you know, weakness?

AARON: No. Um, I think, um, I think, you know, the harder passages would be, um, the harder passages would be, um, when it comes to not being nice.

Um, [00:49:00] so like a hard passage would be, um, when, uh, God says about the, the Canaanites, you show them no mercy. Okay. How do we deal with that? Um, what does that, what does that look like? That that's the, that's a little harder. Um, but, uh, but I, I do believe though that, again, everything goes back to the gospel.

Jesus is the word made flesh. And so the whole testament. It's, it's really talking about him and what it means to be saved in him. So if I was gonna be preaching on, if I was gonna be preaching on, um, you know, you show them no mercy. Um, the, the connecting point to today is that when there's sin in your life, you show it.

No mercy. You, if you have a hand that causes you to sin, you cut it off. Yeah. If you have an eye that causes you to sin, gouge it out. [00:50:00] There's, there's a, you show it no mercy. You get rid of sin in your life. Yeah. At any cost.

KYLE: The sin not the person.

AARON: Exactly.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: So, um, so I think that, I think that e even, even the difficult passages of the Old Testament are very preachable when you connect them to who Jesus is and what it means to be saved in him.

KYLE: Yeah. There's a, a really, uh, a good book by, um, uh, Michael Reeves, I believe his name is, uh, evangelical, Pharisees, the Gospel as a cure for the church's hypocrisy that you might enjoy or that the listeners might enjoy. Um, kind of on this topic, and I thought I'd mention one, one more cult one more cultural question is, is, uh, we know that pornography is a, a big issue in today's culture, and it's, and there's, um, data that shows that it's especially prevalent in very strict, um, Christian communities and very strict Muslim communities because, um.

There's a very high, [00:51:00] uh, expectation or standard of living expectation. And so no one dares to raise their hand and say help. Um, when in, in, in, maybe in areas where that's not as emphasized as much, there's, there's more, you know, openness or there's, that high expectation isn't really there as much, but the whole point of the gospel is that, you know, we do need to raise your hand and say, help.

I, I can't do it. Right? Our Romans three says, our heart is like an open grave and that we, we have no, you know, good. And, and when you grow up in a church culture, uh, uh, um, community, um, it seems like that. That piece, like leaves, like, it's almost like, no, we're actually not, our heart isn't actually like an open grave.

We're pretty decent people and we're just going a little bit, we're just pushing to be even a little bit better yet. And, and there's not an allowance of guilt. It's like guilt is not something they allow themselves to feel and the push away because that means that, you know, I'm not gonna be accepted or lesser than.

Do you recognize any of what I've just, just shared and, and, and see that as, um, uh, challenges in, in [00:52:00] your own circles and world?

AARON: Something that I'm very passionate about is that sin is not just actions that we do, it's a heart condition. Um, anything that you would do that you would call sin is almost a symptom of a heart problem.

You know, it's a, your heart is not in the right place and therefore you sin. So it, so. Having sin be a heart condition, sin is always something I have to deal with. No matter how long of a Christian I've been or how good I look on the outside, I still have sin I need to deal with. Um, I think that that keeps, that keeps us humble as Christians.

It keeps us vigilant as Christians. It, and I think it gives us a proper perspective and thankfulness of God's grace. Um, you know, if you start keeping sin only to external actions, then you start [00:53:00] getting this attitude, I haven't sinned in 20 years, kind of a thing. No. Yeah, no. Um, you have to deal with sin always.

It's a heart condition.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, so, so that is something that I stress a lot, um, from the pulpit. And, and I think it also gives people permission to be able to say, um, I'm struggling with this. So you mentioned pornography. I have had a lot, I've had to deal with a lot of guys who have come to me and said, I struggle with pornography.

And um, and it's amazing what the gospel will do with people in that situation. So because of the gospel, I don't point a finger in their face and say, you know, how dare you? You know, you should be ashamed of yourself. I say, okay, I'm here to help you. We're gonna get past this. We're gonna get over this with God, [00:54:00] God's strength and his grace, and we are gonna learn how to basically ride a bike together.

Right. You might, you might fall, you might skin your knees and you might get discouraged at times, but we're gonna learn how to ride this bike. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna, we're gonna do it with God's help.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: So having, being saved by grace means we're not walking a tight rope.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: Where one misstep and we're done.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: We are more learning how to ride a bike and we are learning what it means to be godly in doing that.

KYLE: So if we know that, that we're saved by grace, and if we know that apart from Christ, our heart is like an open grave and we have no use for God at all, why do you think they're still in your, in your areas, as you're saying, a cultural norm of not criticizing each other or not bring up issues with each other.

Because if we know that well, who God says we are apart from him and that we're forgiven, then it should be easy to criticize. 'cause there's no feelings to hurt. I mean, we're [00:55:00] like, we're, we're good. Right. We're for, we're forgiven.

AARON: Well, let me, let me think about it this way. Um,

KYLE: because what, the more you believe you would agree, the more you believe your identities in Christ, the less, or at least that's been my own experience as my faith has increased, the compliments of other people or the criticisms of other people have carried significantly less weight because it, those things don't, you know, aren't, aren't attached to my value or, or, or, or, or, or my identity.

AARON: Right? Um, I think that part of it is that we all need to live into our Christ identity more and. We are not, we are there only in varying degrees and, and, um, putting off that old self is difficult. And it's [00:56:00] complicated. And it's very intricate.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: I mean, if you think about something like pride, you can have pride over good things.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: You know, I mean, I mean, I've had people say to me, you know, I, uh, I didn't have sex until I got married, and I'm proud of that. Okay. Um, you can have pride over, over, over good, good Christian things, but then that becomes a problem in itself because now you are thinking highly of yourself because of what you've done.

Um. Whereas Paul says, may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world. Um, yeah, pride is a beast because it can rise up in so many ways. Um, and whenever it does, then your [00:57:00] identity isn't in Christ anymore. Your confidence isn't in him.

Your confidence is in yourself. So, so, yeah. Um,

living into Christ is, is a long, complicated, difficult, intricate process of putting off yourself and putting on him. And, and, uh, I, for 1:00 AM not there yet. I'm still trying to do that.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, I think across the west we're seeing a, a trend of in, in, uh, institutional distrust, uh, I think in, in the church as well.

How does a confessional institutional church build trust with a generation that is s skeptical of organized authority? Um, yes. Can you speak to that?

AARON: So you mentioned a confessional church. [00:58:00] Um, when I look at the confessions, well, let me back up. Um, I was homeschooled kindergarten through 12th grade. I knew people from all different kinds of Christian traditions, non-denominational, Pentecostal, Catholic, evangelical free Wesleyan, you name it. I, I, I knew them.

Um, and one thing that I've, I've gathered over the years is that people can take the Bible and make it say whatever they want it to say. Yeah. You know, and to, to a, it's, it's a problem.

KYLE: Mm-hmm.

AARON: If you look through the history of the church, people have done that. People have taken the Bible and used certain verses over and against others and made it say what they wanted it to say, and the church has to come together and say, okay, no, Jesus is fully [00:59:00] human and fully divine.

Yeah. That's what the Bible teaches. Um, the Holy Spirit is fully divine and is part of a triune God, and we're gonna believe that. Um, so when I look at, when I look at the creeds and confessions of the church, um, I see the church as one body of Christ coming together and saying, what does the Bible actually teach here?

That's what we're gonna teach and we're gonna agree to teach that. Um, so as a confessional church, um, I think that, I think that on our own, um, is, is the devil's playground. When you, you read the Bible in a vacuum thinking that you know exactly, you can figure it out all by yourself without any help from any wise Christian discipling people.

Um, you become like [01:00:00] Charles ts Russell, and you start a group called Jehovah's Witnesses because. That's what happened to him. I'm gonna read the Bible for myself. Screw history and, and church traditions and creeds and confessions and all of that kind of stuff.

KYLE: Not to say we shouldn't read the Bible by ourselves, but not exclusively, right?

AARON: Correct. Yes. Thank you. Um, I think that what we need to do is we need to read the Bible with the whole church of all times and places. Um, we need to, we need to read the Bible for our own personal growth. Absolutely. I don't mean to say that we shouldn't, shouldn't do that, but one of the reasons why. Why the sexual revolution has taken over our reading of scripture in our time is because we do not read, we do not read the Bible with the whole church of all times and places.

The church. The church. What

KYLE: do you mean by, what do you mean reading the Bible in [01:01:00] that way? Like practically, what does that look like?

AARON: So for example, the very notion that that same sex marriage would be legit is entirely foreign when you look at the whole church of all times and places that that has never been the case anywhere, ever.

Um, if you read the Bible with the whole church, you would quickly come to that conclusion and you would say, Hey, if I have a new idea about this. That's, that's pretty, that's pretty significant. That's probably wrong.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: You know, even just on that, on that level. Um,

KYLE: so when you think about like your professor that you, that was taught you, um, and that later, you know, started, um, being okay with same sex, um, marriages and stuff like that.

Like this is, I would say a pretty basic idea, uh, in terms of, you know, like, hey, if, if the church [01:02:00] of all throughout history has believed this one way to all of a sudden the last 20, 30 years say, Hey, no, that, that's okay. Now it, it's like, you know, for me I find it very confusing as, as like, you must not be taking this actually seriously, and, and, and you just must want your way more than you want the Bible's way.

But maybe I'm, maybe I'm dumb, you know, like I'm, but

AARON: no, um. I think that I, I think that, um, to be honest, I remember this professor in class saying this very thing. If you look at history and the worldwide church, it's pretty unanimous on this topic, and we need to take that seriously. So I mean that, I mean, other people have made that argument to me, but I have in my head him saying that in class.

Yeah. So, um, [01:03:00] so yeah, but our personal attachments are really powerful and we can, and we can be attached to the people in our lives or the things that we own or the activities that we engage in. Um. To a degree that God becomes sidelined.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: And we find ways around it

KYLE: actually likely to happen if we're humans.

AARON: Well, yeah. So I mean, it's good because sin is a heart condition. What are our hearts attached to? More than Christ?

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: You know, something's there, but we need to ask ourselves what that is.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: Um.

KYLE: Hmm. You, you, uh, yeah.

AARON: And we need to deal with that.

KYLE: Yeah. You said earlier that the churches that are growing in your, in your area are, um, the Wesleyan churches and, uh, [01:04:00] the more evangelical, you call them Walmart, uh, churches.

Um, which is funny because I, I would, you would tell me that I would go to a Walmart church because I, I left the Dutch, uh, uh, the more reformed, um, circles four, i, I would say it's still a reformed church, but they don't look reformed. You know, the apostles CRE doesn't get read every morning and there's not like an exact church order and, and things like that.

And one of the things I. Um, um, appreciated it about it is be, is that I felt growing up a lot of those catechisms and cress and the different confessionals and stuff like that just became a religion in, uh, in their own right. It was just like that, that, that was just, that was what we did. And, and the life was missing, uh, out, out of it.

Uh, and the actual heart, heart of it all. And, and, uh, it became, its, you know, it became almost, um, infallible, uh, in itself because while the catechism says, you know, what we preach from the catechism and, and things like that, um, how, how do you, how do you keep. I'm not, I'm not writing off all Dutch reform churches or any, any of [01:05:00] those things.

No, that's fine. Just for, for the listeners too, I just wanted to mention that, but I'm just curious in your own, uh, as you think through it yourself, how do you keep these confessionals and creeds, which are really awesome, like the Heart of Work catechism or the Westminster Confession or beautiful, uh, um, um, um, things when you can read them and, and begin to understand them, but how do you keep 'em alive?

That they're not just cold hearted orthodoxy and things that you do, but they're actually, you know, there's, there's reasons for this and that there's life in it.

AARON: Yes. Um, well the first thing that comes to my mind is right now I'm going through, through, uh, the Hilberg Catechism in Belgian confession with my high schoolers.

And, um, one of the things that I do. Is I have this hat that I put on, and when I put on the hat, everybody knows that I'm playing a character. And so I will play devil's advocate. So I will put on the hat and I will be Baptist Aaron. Uh, your baptism is not valid because you did not choose it. [01:06:00] You were an infant.

And then I make them defend, defend that, or I will be Jehovah's Witness Aaron. Jesus isn't fully divine. It doesn't say that in the Bible, you know, where does it say that in the Bible? You know, just, um, because a lot of, a lot of the stuff that the confessions discuss are things that we're still dealing with even today.

And, and so I, I, I see, I see the relevance that way. And again, because people can take the Bible and make it say whatever they want. Um, I, well, I had a, I had a great uncle who actually believed that Jesus had already returned, um, because some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Therefore, Jesus returned. Um, and he had a lot of other wacky ideas like that. Um, people do that [01:07:00] and, and we need, we need a church, um, to, to ground us in our understanding of, of scripture and, and, uh, and that's what the creed of confessions are. This is the church coming together saying, okay, what does the Bible teach?

That's what we're gonna teach and we're gonna agree to teach this together. Um. So

KYLE: has there been an area, has there been an area where you've shifted over the last 20 years? In, in, in theology? Like, if I think of myself, I've, in my Christian walk, I've definitely shifted in terms of like how gracious and merciful I believe God is.

Where, you know, I almost had a limit in my mind before, before that, and I, I've moved a lot more in that area or, you know, the Sabbath or things like that. Uh, um, and how that gets lived out. Do you, do you, you have any areas where you're, over time you've realized maybe I was emphasizing it too much or this or that?

AARON: So, um, growing up with the [01:08:00] homeschool group, being the homeschool group that we, groups that we grew up with were kind of our spiritual community. I, I went to a Christian reform church my whole life, but my spiritual community was, was really the homeschool group.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: So for the vast majority of my life, I was functionally an Armenian dispensationalist.

KYLE: Okay. Interesting.

AARON: Um, so I would've, I would've

KYLE: maybe, maybe explain Dispensationalist because I don't, most people would know what Armenian is,

AARON: but I would've believed that Israel and the church are different peoples of God. I would've believed in some sort of rapture, some sort of antichrist and some sort of thousand year reign and your rain and, and, and those sorts of things.

KYLE: Um, and your parents would've taught you this too, or this is your own conclusions you came to yourself?

AARON: No, um, my, I remember my parents and, uh, us talking about it and stuff like that. Yeah.

KYLE: Okay. Okay.

AARON: Um, again, because our spiritual community was, [01:09:00] was the homeschool group, and so that was, we, we had a lot of trust in the people there.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: And so, you know, you, you start to, you start to adopt the, the beliefs and the practices and the values of the people you hang out with. A little yeast works into the whole dough, and that's why we need to be together with other believers. Um, so, so I would've, I would've been a functional functionally dispensational Armenian, um, until I started, until I went to seminary.

Really, that's when I started to study the Bible more in depth and study and, and realize kind of the importance of the historical church and, and its role in how we interpret scripture. And I would've come. And that's when I started to come to different conclusions. Um, so now I, I believe in the five points of the Senate of dot.[01:10:00]

Um, and I believe that there's one people of God from the beginning of time until the end, as it says in Galatians, if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring and you are heirs according to the promise. Um, so those would be a couple areas that I've changed

KYLE: it. Yeah, thanks for hearing that.

Um, you, you've preached on the concept, um, before that Christmas is war, um, specifically a war against sin and death. Do, do you, and, and so do you think, we kind of touched on it earlier, but I want you to speak directly to it. Do you think the modern church has lost its militant in the spiritual sense, like it's militant edge?

AARON: Um, I think that the church has become militant politically. Not spiritually.

KYLE: Ah.

AARON: Um, and there's some overlap there, but

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, but boy, in, in my,

KYLE: what, what is, what is mil, what is militant politically [01:11:00] and what is militant spiritually? Can you define those two?

AARON: Sure. I see people getting, getting more excited about, and passionate about, um, political, political topics, economic sorts of things, um, than about, than about spiritual things.

Things that are eternal, things that are things that are going to grow us closer to God and things like that. So when it comes to, when it comes to getting out the vote for an election, people are, are all there about that. When it comes to reaching the lost in our community. Little lackluster.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, so that, that's kind of what I, what I have in mind, um, in, in those ways.[01:12:00]

So, um,

KYLE: how, how are we in this spot? Like, why, because I find that increasingly common, like during COVID, people could be very clear about how upset they were that their family was getting vaccinated or their family member wasn't getting vaccinated, uh, or, you know, that their family member voted for Trump or didn't vote for Trump, or, you know, and, and they'd be very loud in your face about it and stuff like that.

But these people, a lot of these people call themselves Christians and have never shared the gospel with their neighbor. Um, does that for me, it's just like, are you even Christian? Like, like the whole, the whole point of this is that they're, you know, going, going to hell and that this isn't our home, and, and, and that we're going to a new heaven, a new Earth.

And that, you know, a lot of this is what we're dealing is temporary. And, and, uh, God told us that these things would happen, you know, uh, and that there would be wicked rulers and that there would be all, all this stuff. And, and it's like we've, the, the focus has. Shifted so, so much onto, you know, basically what the Israelites wanted when Jesus came is to be like, get rid of the Romans.

[01:13:00] Um, and, and, and now it's like, oh, let's get rid of the Democrats. Uh, you know, or, or yeah.

AARON: I mean those are, those are kinds of things that um, that uh, disrupt, disrupt my thinking a lot. Like, um, how did, how did we get here and how do, how do we deal with this? And, and I don't wanna say politics doesn't matter, so I wanna be careful there too, you know?

Um, I don't wanna say, you know, stop being involved in politics, but I, I do, I do hear people get all fired up about, about Trump taxation. Economic stuff, any, any political topic of the day. Um, but I don't hear people getting as fired up as often about [01:14:00] reaching the lost or discipling the found or, or, um, you know, what, uh, what is preached at the pulpit and, and, um, you know, those sorts of things.

KYLE: Mm-hmm.

AARON: So, um, but yeah, I remember reading a survey where, um, you know, 30 years ago if you asked parents, how would you feel if your kid married somebody of a different religion? How would do you feel if they married somebody of a different political party? Um, they would want their kids to marry somebody of the same religion.

The other political party that's less important now it's the reverse.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: Um, marrying somebody of the political party, same political party is more important than having the same religion.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Reminds me of that verse that, uh, Christianity has, uh, uh, lost. Its lost its power. It's become a, a form of godliness [01:15:00] that, that's lost its power.

And it's like this cultural, it's new definition of Christianity, which is more just a Yeah. A political movement than anything.

AARON: Yeah. There's one person I follow a lot is Ryan Burg. Um, he has repeatedly, repeatedly said recently and have lots of different numbers to back it up. That the, the factor that determines your views on, on all sorts of issues.

Is more where you put yourself on the conservative, liberal political spectrum than, than anything else.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: So politics is the master identity.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Where whether you are right or left, that is what governs everything, um, more than, more than what you believe in your faith.

KYLE: Yeah. So Will will you call this off, uh, from the pulpit and say, Hey guys, like this is what I'm seeing.

I'm [01:16:00] seeing you guys getting way more excited about this, these, these political things than you are about Jesus Christ himself. Like this has gotta stop, like, repent. Like will you call that out? How, how do you deal with it if you, if you say you think about this a lot and, and, and, and wrestle with it and it bugs you, how do you, uh, as a pastor and, and as someone that of influence, how do, how do you approach it?

AARON: So, so, um, the last two presidential elections, the Sunday before. I've deliberately preached on Psalm 146, put not your trust in princes in mortal man who cannot save. Um, and I've, I've made sure to say, guys, get out and vote. Do your civic duty. Be, be a Christian in this world. But do not put your trust in these people.

These people are not your saviors. They're not your lords. They are not your [01:17:00] gods. And, um, they are not going to save you. Yeah. Only Jesus saves you. And, and I've mentioned it seems like politics is, is becoming a master identity more than faith. That's a problem. We need to have Jesus be our primary identity.

So I have, I have addressed those things directly in those times in context. Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE: How do you navigate the tension between being a welcoming church and being a, a church that maintains distinct biblical boundaries?

AARON: Yeah. Um, I've said repeatedly, um, and, and I am, I'm, I serve a, a country church in a kind of a homogenous area.

Um, so, so I, I don't have, I don't have to deal with this as often as other people, but I have said, I have said a number of times, it says in [01:18:00] the Bible that let everything that has breath praise the Lord. That means that if anybody comes to our doors and wants to worship with us, they're welcome. I don't care who you are or what religion you say that you are or, or whatever.

If you're here to praise the Lord with us, you're glad to have you. This is the best place for you. Um, but uh, but if it becomes, if it becomes a part where it's like, okay, we'd like to join your church. Now let's have some conversations. Here's some things that we believe in this church. Here's some things that we do at this church.

Is that something you can be on board with? So, um, so we, the, the pulpit needs to be a place where the Bible is preached and, and every part of it, whether we like it or not. Um, I've, I've mentioned a number of times I'm preaching something. It's like, okay, everybody, I need to hear this as much as anybody else.

Or we might not like what this says, but this [01:19:00] is what it says. Um, so the Bible needs to be preached accurately and, and, uh, and faithfully from the pulpit. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, anybody wants to come. Glad to have you. Yeah. Um, if you're here to disrupt things, then that's another matter, but if you're here to worship with us, we're glad to have you.

Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. How do you, uh, look at the future, uh, just, uh, of, especially Christianity in, in, uh, north America or Amer America for you? Canada for me. Um, where, where do you think we're headed, do you think, do you think there's, do you have hope for the future? Uh, do you see more personality coming? Do you see more polarization?

Do you, how do, how do you think about that much? Or do you think, Hey, I don't need to worry about that. Don't be anxious for tomorrow? Um,

AARON: yeah. It's, that's a,

I, I think about it. I think about it a a lot actually. I think more about the present than the future. It's like, okay, what is, I [01:20:00] think more about, okay, what is going on right now that needs to be dealt with or that we need to be paying attention to? Um. But, uh, in terms of, in terms of the future, um, I think that, um, denominations are kind of on their way out.

Um, there's a lot more and more Christians that just wanna focus on their personal relationship with Jesus, and that's the centerpiece of their faith. Um,

KYLE: well, and you, do you believe it shouldn't be. Their personal relationship with Jesus or

AARON: I, I would say, I would say that your personal relationship with Jesus is, is a, is a team sport.

It's not an individual sport.

KYLE: Okay. But together. But if you have the church, but you don't have the denomination, let's say you just have the church, you don't, you think that, uh, that's

AARON: not, that's part, that's being a team sport. You're part, if you're part of a body believers, [01:21:00] okay, then, then you need that.

KYLE: Okay. Um,

AARON: but

KYLE: I just wasn't sure because you said, you said that, uh, you believe the dominations are dying. They are and, and, and, and then led into that. So I was, I just wanted to clarify that, but

AARON: okay. Yeah, no, I think thanks for that. Um, no, we, we all need, we all need a body of believers, uh, whatever, whatever brand or stripe.

Um, but uh, we need that. Um, and I, I would argue that we need denominations too because of accountability and because of, and because. I think it follows the commands of submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, I think that, uh, I think that we're becoming more isolated, just in general as a culture.

Um, our smartphones are making us more and more inward focused, individualized, individually focused. Um, and, and, uh, so that is an uphill battle. [01:22:00] Um, politics is kind of replacing religion. That's an uphill battle. Um, and, and yeah. Um, it seems like we're in a theological time where everybody does what's right in their own eyes.

Um, and, and that's an uphill battle.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: So those are just some of the things that I'm seeing right now that, that trouble me. Um, and, uh, and I, it doesn't seem to be in line with. With, uh, things that the Bible teaches, but what I am confident in is that there will always be a church.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: That there are gonna be true believers going forward.

It might not look the way that I think it should, but there will be true believers going forward. God will always have people, um, even like when God said to [01:23:00] Elijah, I've reserved 7,000 that have not bowed the need to bail. Um, there will be a church. Always. So, um, that I'm confident in, and I have to remind myself a lot, this is not my church.

This is God's church, and I'm here to serve for a time and, and that's it. But I need to know, I need to stay in my lane. I need to do what I am given to do. But, but, um, I am not, I'm not God. I am not the savior. I am, I am. I can't have thankfully God complex.

KYLE: Yeah. So,

AARON: yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. I think that's good news, right?

That, that, that we're not God and, and, and that it's not all up to us. And he just ask us to be faithful where we are today and not fix all the problems. You know, I, I even think about, uh, I think it's in Philippians, think of what is righteous, think of is pure. I think of what is good. Think what is ho holy, you know, we put that verse beside the news.

Um, it doesn't match. Yes. And, and, and we spend a lot more [01:24:00] time, or I think as. Culturally, the Christian spend a lot more time on the news than they do in the word, and, you know, what are the results they're showing?

AARON: Yeah, for sure. Um, I, uh, I, I, I hope that, uh, that more and more people develop just a love for, for God and his word.

Um, because for me, the Bible used when I was a kid, the Bible was like a textbook mm-hmm. That you went to for answers and, and that sort of thing. And now, um, and now I, I just love God's word. It's, it's awesome. I, I, I just love what it says, how it reassures, how it encourages, how it, how it challenges, um, just the, the subtle ways that it speaks and how every time you open it with an open heart, the spirit's working in ways that [01:25:00] you're not even aware of fully, but you're being shaped and, and molded by it every time you open it.

And how, how wonderful that is and, uh, amazing and, and, uh, and you know, for, uh, pardon the word, but magical, you know, just in, in that general sense. Yeah. Um, there's power there and Yeah. And, um, I just, I just want people to love God's word like, like I do.

KYLE: Yeah. Um, thank you for that. You mentioned earlier your battle with depression, and, um, so I wanna wrap, wrap up on that topic in the gospel.

And so you, you wrote a pretty moving article, uh, uh, for the banner, uh, titled It's not What I Feel, uh, detailing your Long Battle with Clinical Depression. Why did you decide to go public with that struggle and and what was the response? [01:26:00]

AARON: The response was very, very positive and very affirming. Um, I, I've, I've opened up and been honest about this struggle in smaller circles many times with my congregation included.

And, um, and, and the result has always been, I think God honoring, um. I think it's, IM, I think it's important. I, I wanted to take what Paul says seriously, or what God says seriously through Paul. I should say that if I'm gonna boast, I'm gonna boast in the things that show my weakness so that God's power will, will be evident.

This is, this is a, a weakness of mine and, um, and, uh, it's, it's my, it's my thorn in the flesh. So [01:27:00] if it, if it shows God's power, then all the better. And, um, then I'm, I'm fulfilling what, what scripture says, hopefully. Yeah. Um,

KYLE: so how, how has it shaped, how has it shaped you? Suffering often shapes us. How, how has it shaped you?

AARON: That's, uh, there's a lot of ways I could answer that. Um, I. Um, when, uh, especially when I, this first hit me, like in, in high school, I, I hit depths of sadness and hurt that I didn't even know existed. And so, um, for a while I never lost my belief in God, but I, I, for a while lost my belief in his goodness and his love.

Um, I thought he was, he [01:28:00] was cruel. And, um, and so after a long time of growing in faith and trusting him, I've realized that that's not the case. Um, and I've learned more and more to. Use my suffering as a way to identify with Christ and to connect with him in his sufferings becoming like him and his death.

And so attaining the resurrection from the dead, as it says. Um, so to use it as a means to, to bolster faith instead of cut it down is, is what I've grown into. But honestly, I look back on my life and I see perseverance of the saints, um, considering how badly, how badly I felt and how [01:29:00] warped my view of God was.

I'm amazed that I'm a Christian today, let alone a pastor.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: Um, I think that God has God held onto me. Because I, I had given up on him. Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. Reminds me of that. Him, he will hold us fast.

AARON: Yeah. Yeah. And he does, he who began a good work, and you will see it through to the, to completion. Um, and I, I've, I've lived that.

KYLE: Hmm.

AARON: So, um, so yeah, I, I, I have no doubt that God exists and that he holds onto us.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, in closing, can you, can you share the gospel in your own words, assuming that the people listening have never heard the gospel before? Like, what, what would your definition of the, the gospel be?

And I'm happy that this question is giving you the biggest, I'm getting the biggest smile. 'cause it means you'd love the gospel.

AARON: I, [01:30:00] I, I do love the gospel. Um, I just, uh, oh boy. Just for fun on a Christian Facebook group. I said share me the, share the gospel with me in one sentence.

KYLE: Oh boy.

AARON: And everybody, everybody had different words, but the same answer.

KYLE: Oh,

AARON: okay. That's good news. Like, nobody gave the same, same exact words, but everybody had the same answer.

KYLE: Alright.

AARON: So it was, it's just, it's amazing how multifaceted the gospel is. That we are saved in Jesus Christ by grace through faith, and that he came into this world to walk, walk our soil, and breathe our air to, to be near to us, to live a sinless life, to to die on the cross for our sins to rise again, victoriously on the third day, to ascend to heaven at the [01:31:00] father's right hand.

Where, where spiritually we exist right now. Already we are seated in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus. Um, where God is, God is not just God, but Lord, but our Father, um, in Christ. God is our Father. That means he, he loves and cares for us. He wants us to, to grow and, and thrive. And He, when he gives us commands, it's not because he's a spoil sport, but he wants what's best for us.

Um, we, we, we live a life that is, is full of meaning. I, i think of Ecclesiastes and how there's, you know, without, without God, life is really meaningless. Just enjoy it because that's all, that's all you got. But in, in Christ, even, even the, the slaves in Colossians were told, Hey, whatever you do, do it with all your might because you are serving the Lord.

And we [01:32:00] know that the, the slaves at that time, they did the most menial, mundane, you know, the worst jobs of all. But Paul says, if you're in Christ, cleaning latrines is, is God's work. Can you do that with pride? Um, there's meaning there. There's purpose there. Um. All because of what Jesus has done. Um, yeah.

That, that changes everything in our lives and, and, uh, it gives us a new identity. Um, we are not, we are not victims of what we feel anymore. We are, we have an identity that is bigger than us and broader than us, and more secure than any feelings that we would have.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, how much longer can I go? Um,

KYLE: no, I, if you have more to say, keep sharing.

AARON: Okay. Um, I just, I love, I love that, uh, I can [01:33:00] look forward to eternal life. I don't have to be afraid of death. Um, I can, I, I'm getting to the point now in my ministry where. When I hear one of the, one, one of our saints in the church has, has passed on, I, I think good for you. You, you made it. You've fought the fight, you've finished the race, and now you've got the crown of righteousness.

Good for you. Uh, just what a, uh, what a what a different view of, of death even.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: Um, it means that the sufferings that we have in this life are, are a means of our salvation. You know, when, when Jesus died on the cross, um, that was supposed to be his ultimate shame and ultimate defeat and, uh, ultimate humiliation.

Um, and yet we look back on it now and it's his finest hour. His, the, the cross is, we put it on our, on top of our [01:34:00] churches. We make it, we hold it up on as a symbol. Like, look at what Jesus did. Um. Yeah, just so our sufferings are going to turn into our finest hours. And, and if he can make an empty tomb out of a cross, there's nothing that he can't transform in our lives too, and in Christ we have that.

Um, he makes, he makes empty tombs out of crosses for everyone who belongs to him. Hmm. So, um, yeah, the, the gospel is powerful. It gives us hope when we are otherwise hopeless. It gives us purpose when otherwise things are meaningless. It gives us strength for each day when otherwise we would have, have none, um, or very little and.

It gives us, it gives me a [01:35:00] reason to get out of bed every morning. Yeah. In spite of the depression that I feel, um, I, I can, I can serve the Lord today. Yeah. That's, that's amazing. Um, my life has purpose whether I, maybe, even if I don't feel it, my God has said that your life has meaning. I'm gonna do it to the best of my ability.

Um, this is it. It changes everything really.

KYLE: Yeah. It, it does. I think especially if you know what you've been saved from and, and, and, um, it's a question that's popped up in my mind now is, is the gospel is beautiful when you understand more clearly what you've been saved from, just like, if I would go to you and say, Hey, I have the best chemo treatment in the world right now from the best doctrine in the world.

Like, you know, let's go. You wanna go Aaron and, and get this done? You'd be like, no, no, I, I, I think I'm good. You know, like, I, I don't have cancer. But if I, if you had riddled with cancer and I'd give you that news, you'd be extremely happy. And of course, [01:36:00] the gospel is the same way when we understand, hey, that we're riddled with cancer.

So how do you share the gospel with people in a way where they don't just get the news, not understanding a, that there's a problem?

AARON: Most of the people that I interact with are either Christians or would profess to be Christians. And so most of my sharing the gospel is. Do you realize how big of a deal this is? You know, like you, you say that you believe in Christ. Do you, do you realize what that means? You, you realize how amazing that is, how wonderful that is.

All of the blessings that go along with it, all of the cha, but all of the challenges too, and, and the sufferings that go along with that. Just let's, let's live into that. Let's, let's look at life through that lens. Let's look at your struggle through that lens. Um, let's look at your joys and your, your [01:37:00] defeats through that lens.

Um,

KYLE: yeah,

AARON: so,

KYLE: and if you, and if you would meet someone that isn't a Christian, like maybe that isn't aware of that, because I, I mean, I think even Christians still need to hear it because, you know, it makes, you know, it's like the diamond on a black background. The, the, the, the, the contrast is bigger when we're, you know, one of the, one of my favorite passages in, in the Bible is Romans three, because it, it, uh.

I mean, I had super low thoughts of myself for a long time, and so when I heard it, me described in the way that Romans three describes us, uh, I, I was full of hope because I was just like, wow, that's, if God can save that person, he can save me as well. Uh, um, and that contrast makes it bigger. So how do you, how do you bring that contrast forward when you're dealing with talking to a Christian about the gospel, but then also an an unbeliever that you know, needs to understand, Hey, you're, you're not just, this isn't just, uh, a nice thing that you can have, it's, it's a necessity because you'll die without it.

AARON: I, uh, [01:38:00] I have somebody who's very near and dear to me that, um, was raised Christian and, um, is, would not say that they're Christian anymore. Um, so, um. When it comes. And, and non-believers, people who don't believe are, are so very different. They, they have, they have different reasons for not believing. Um, when, when this person told, told me, you know, asked me once, why, why are you a Christian?

I knew the reason why this person would say he's not a Christian anymore. And it's because that's just what, what he was taught and how he was raised. So now that he's out of that environment, he's, he's thinking for himself. So I said, I, I said the, the thing that [01:39:00] amazes me about Christianity is how counterintuitive it is and how, how I, I look at it and I think, who would believe this?

Um, you're basing your entire religion on. Somebody rising from the dead, which you can't, you can't just prove you have to believe it. Um, you're saying that God is one and three at the same time. How does that make sense? You're saying God became a man like one of us. How does that work? Um, you're saying that, uh, take up your cross and follow me is good news.

Like what is, what's up with that? Who would invent this? I mean, and I look at all the other religions of the world

KYLE: and I

AARON: see what they believe to the best that I can. I think Yeah, that, that makes sense. I, I could see, I could see somebody, um, coming up with [01:40:00] Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism. I can see how they got there.

With Christianity, it's like, who? Who would believe this on, on a, on a human level. This makes no sense at all. Um, but I believe it and I'm convinced of it. And, and just the fact that it's so counterintuitive and I still believe it, um, lends its to its credibility. I think because it's beyond, it's beyond what humans can understand.

KYLE: Yeah. Even though there is a lot of evidence for it. I mean, there is a lot of evidence for the resurrection and, and that this is the, the one true God.

AARON: Sure. And I'm not, I'm not, and I don't wanna discount that, but when it comes to, when it comes to religions, this Christianity is the one that I think is the most bizarre.

And the one that goes against [01:41:00] human thinking the most.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: And the one that just, I, I look at it and I think, who would invent this? This, if you were inventing a religion, this would be the worst religion to invent. Um,

KYLE: well, there's nothing to do. I mean, I, I think it's best summarized in all other religions, say do, and Jesus says, done right.

It's not something we can work for, which goes against their very how, the, how our whole society is set up. Our society's set up as you do good, you work hard, you get results. And if you don't and you get punishment, and, and God flips it on his head and says, Hey, there's this thing called grace. And, and, uh, that's not how we're wired.

AARON: Exactly. That, that's, that's another thing that's just counterintuitive. We're not used to grace. Um, why are, why would you, why would you formula invent a religion and base it on grace that mean that just. That, that, that, that doesn't make any sense. That doesn't, that doesn't work with the, nor the way we normally [01:42:00] think.

So, and neither does a resurrection. Neither does one in three, neither does God becoming man. Um, this is not how our minds work. So accepting it is a challenge and we have to accept it as a mystery. Um, and, and again, I'm not saying that there's no evidence for this, but for this particular person who didn't believe, um, asking me why Christianity over the all the other ones, I, I, I, I figured that the, the best thing to say was that this doesn't fit the normal human way of thinking.

Yeah. This is very contrary to normal human ways of thinking. And so that, that lends itself to this is not made up. This is something that's real.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for taking the time today, Aaron. I, I, uh, I really appreciate it. If people wanna find some of your writings, your, your sermons [01:43:00] or any of the stuff that you've put out there, where, where's the best place for them to do that?

AARON: Yeah, I have a YouTube channel. If you, um, if you Google Aaron Reesman or Pastor Reesman, you should be able to find it there. Um, I've written a lot of articles for the Abide Project, the banner, um, for the Eola report. You can find those. Uh, you can just google my name, Aaron Reman, and, uh, you can find those pretty easily.

I just, uh, I just hope that everyone listening knows Christ as Lord and Savior and, uh, puts their trust in him and grows in their love and knowledge of him each day. So

KYLE: thank you. Yeah. Would you, uh, be willing to close? Close. Okay. Would you be willing to close that one prayer?

AARON: Absolutely.

KYLE: Thank you.

AARON: Heavenly Father, we, we thank you for this day. We thank you for your goodness. [01:44:00] We thank you for your grace that you've shown to us, especially in Jesus Christ or Jesus. We thank you for coming into this world, for being one of us, for dying, for rising, for ascending, to give us a salvation that's complete and perfect in every way.

And we pray, Lord, that we would know what that means more and more always, that you would work in by your spirit, that we would have transformed hearts that want what you want, that see others and life as you see it. And that Lord, we would live out, um, your gospel that you have shown to us and revealed to us.

We pray, uh, Lord, that, um, everyone listening here would, would either know you or grow in their knowledge of you. Uh, thank you for Kyle, thank you for his work. Thank you for the, the, the ministry that, that he does with, with his interviews. And, uh, please [01:45:00] bless him. Please equip him. Please encourage him. And, uh, Lord, may your kingdom come and may your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

We pray. In Jesus' name. Amen.

KYLE: Amen. Thanks for listening guys. If you enjoy today's episode, um, share it with a friend or family member that'd be awesome, or on your social media, uh, that goes a long way, uh, or leave a comment on what you thought about it. Um, that is super appreciated. And, uh, yeah, I'll catch you guys on the next one.

Thanks, man.

AARON: Thanks, Kyle. Um, I really enjoyed this. I really do. I

KYLE: did as well. Yeah.

AARON: I hope that, uh, I hope that I was not insulting or, or anything, uh, towards you, uh, or

KYLE: no, no, no, no. The Walmart church thing, no. It made me chuckle. Oh, okay. I, yeah. Yeah. I'm, it's really, really, I, I almost never get offended by anything.

Like, I, I can't, like, um, um, and, uh, I [01:46:00] appreciate more than anything. I can still tell pretty quickly, I think, anyways, when someone loves Jesus and, and loves the gospel, and I, I think that's. I can tell that we connect on that. And so a lot of the other stuff, you know, is, uh, is just, it's, it's more noise than anything.

And, uh, not that it's not worth talking about and stuff like that, so no. Sure. I definitely wasn't so,

AARON: no. Um, when, uh, when all is said and done, we're, we're, we're all brothers and sisters in Christ and, um, um, of various churches and denominations and, and, uh, I'm, I'm looking forward to the day when, when Jesus is gonna look out each one of us and say, okay, here's, here's the way it actually is.

And that's right. Yeah. We'll all be like, yes sir, whatever you say. Um,

KYLE: yes, we'll understand it as well. And, and, uh, there'll be harmony and all, all this fighting will be gone. There's not gonna be. RC churches or you know, [01:47:00] F-R-C-N-R-C-H-C, all the, yeah, all the seas, you know, like all the noise. Just one, one Church praising Jesus on the new heaven and new Earth and, um.

Just as

AARON: a way of bringing people together that nobody else does. Like you look at the apostles, you have Simon, the zealot. You had Matthew, the tax collector. These people would've killed each other apart from

KYLE: Yes.

AARON: Yes. And yet Jesus brought 'em together and gave 'em a common mission. Um, I'm sure that we are gonna run into people that we would've despised on a regular basis, and here they are in heaven and we're gonna say, how'd you get here?

Yeah. And they're gonna say the same way you got here.

KYLE: Yeah.

AARON: You know, that's

KYLE: right. Jesus said, come.

AARON: Yep.

KYLE: Awesome, man. I appreciate it. I'm not sure exactly when that will go out. It'll probably go out next week, Saturday or the following Saturday. Depends on how quickly I can get it edited out. Uh, uh, up. Um, I almost edit nothing out.

I'll edit maybe a few little gaps here and there. Or when you blew your nose, I'll [01:48:00] edit that little piece out. But, um, otherwise it'll just stay exactly the same. Um, and I'll send you a proof beforehand. Proof beforehand, uh, in case you wanna change anything, uh, you don't have to. Um, I just give people the option to.

Um, I

AARON: appreciate that. I don't think I

KYLE: and uh, yeah.

AARON: Would change anything, so.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah.

AARON: Um,

KYLE: awesome.

AARON: But thank you for the opportunity. I really enjoyed this and, and, uh, and, uh, blessings on, on you, your work and, uh, and your efforts too.

KYLE: Thanks, man. Appreciate it. God bless you. And, uh, talk soon.

AARON: All right. See ya.

See you

KYLE: Darren. See. Bye.