Why Church Leaders Are So Afraid to Admit They’re Broken - Briefcase & The Barn EP 111

September 2, 2026

[00:00:00] GARY: [00:00:10] [00:00:20] crosstalk. Yeah, the facilitator does matter- That's right ... but you don't need to get too, you don't need to get [00:00:30] too worried about it. Yeah.

[00:00:31] KYLE: You gotta be, um, pretty close, like a, like a, you can't lean back. What you doing here?

[00:00:35] GARY: It's really an Albertan thing. The Albertans really are laid back. You like to

[00:00:37] KYLE: lean back

[00:00:38] GARY: and- Yeah.

[00:00:39] [00:00:40] I ha- oh, I can tell the story on the podcast just 'cause it's, it's interesting.

[00:00:45] KYLE: Me and Gary will hang out and I'll start talking. We're like, "All right, let's just not talk. Let's just talk later on the podcast."

[00:00:48] GARY: Yeah, we never do [00:00:50] pre-talk. We actually never pre-talked. Oh, okay. No, like some podcasts, they have a whole pre-meeting.

[00:00:53] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:00:54] GARY: Like-

[00:00:55] TRAVIS: Not this one. We're

[00:00:55] GARY: too cool. Not this one.

[00:00:56] TRAVIS: We're too cool for that.

[00:00:57] GARY: Well, it's just-

[00:00:59] TRAVIS: You know, I'm kind of [00:01:00] excited to, I mean, I was really excited about... Like, so it sounds like we're gonna do it all in one central location now- Mm-hmm ... which originally I didn't wanna do, but now I'm actually kind of happy we're doing 'cause I thought it would be nicer [00:01:10] to have little bit smaller groups, but I don't know, for some reason I'm-

[00:01:13] GARY: It's nice to do it in a home.

[00:01:15] Like, there's some real positives, but it's also then all on you. Yeah. You have to be there every week. [00:01:20] You cannot miss one. Yeah. And I just think the health of a group, like the health of the whole ministry is probably better- The

[00:01:26] KYLE: ministry for sure ...

[00:01:27] GARY: the ministry. The ministry is just healthier if you have a leadership [00:01:30] team and you have a group of people and-

[00:01:31] TRAVIS: Right

[00:01:32] GARY: yeah, there's a lot of...

[00:01:33] TRAVIS: Yeah, I just found, like myself the last couple of weeks, I've been feeling more and more like I don't want to [00:01:40] do it, and-

[00:01:40] GARY: Oh, that's just the devil ...

[00:01:41] TRAVIS: I know that's just normal. Yeah, that's normal. I know.

[00:01:42] GARY: That's

[00:01:43] TRAVIS: just- So I'm fighting it,

[00:01:44] GARY: but- ... spiritual warfare.

[00:01:46] TRAVIS: I know I need to do it again, so

[00:01:48] GARY: it's

[00:01:48] TRAVIS: just- [00:01:50]

[00:01:50] GARY: It'll actually be in some ways...

[00:01:51] Oh, be cur- Yeah ... you'll just have to say how it is for you, but I'd be curious to know. Are we lo- are we locked and loaded here?

[00:01:56] KYLE: No, we're not.

[00:01:58] GARY: All right, what are you doing there?

[00:01:59] KYLE: I was just deleting [00:02:00] old stuff so I don't have to like look at what-

[00:02:02] GARY: Okay. Are we, are the vid- things on?

[00:02:04] KYLE: I think so, yeah.

[00:02:06] GARY: Okay. Do you want me to pray?

[00:02:06] KYLE: Sure.

[00:02:07] GARY: Heavenly Father, God, we just thank you that [00:02:10] we can, uh, record a podcast again. Um, God, we just pray that our words would be honoring to you and entertaining. Uh, Lord, we just pray that we would be, uh, [00:02:20] honest, and God, just pray that, uh, whatever we say would be helpful to those that are listening and, uh, just pray that we can have a nice time hanging out here today.

[00:02:28] We pray this all in Jesus' [00:02:30] name. Amen.

[00:02:30] KYLE: Amen. Welcome back to another episode of The Briefcase at the Bar, episode 111. Um, we got, uh, [00:02:40] Travis DeCock joining us. Travis, tell people about who you are. Travis. So I know Travis from, um, got [00:02:50] connected actually through the podcast, right? That's how you heard about me?

[00:02:52] Yeah. Okay. And, and of, um, um-

[00:02:55] GARY: Before this one, right? Like, it would've been back when you were recording.

[00:02:58] TRAVIS: No,

[00:02:58] KYLE: not this one.

[00:02:59] GARY: Okay.

[00:02:59] KYLE: [00:03:00] Yeah.

[00:03:00] TRAVIS: Okay. No, I started listening- Okay. Yeah, when you guys started doing kind of Briefcase in the Barn, actually. That's probably when I would've started. 'Cause

[00:03:04] KYLE: we've been working together for how long?

[00:03:05] Almost, almost two years. When, when, when you did buy Pristine?

[00:03:09] TRAVIS: That [00:03:10] would've been, yeah, uh, December of '24.

[00:03:16] KYLE: Yeah, so we started working- Yeah. It's

[00:03:17] TRAVIS: about, yeah,

[00:03:18] KYLE: December

[00:03:18] TRAVIS: will

[00:03:18] KYLE: be

[00:03:18] TRAVIS: two years. Yeah.

[00:03:19] KYLE: November or [00:03:20] something, I started working together. Yeah, so. Um, and, uh, so he's down hanging out with us for a couple days, and thought it'd be cool to have him on.

[00:03:27] And, uh, you do, you own Centric Manufacturing, [00:03:30] which is, I'll let you talk about that, and, and, uh, part of Pristine, which is the firearms company, right?

[00:03:34] TRAVIS: Correct.

[00:03:35] KYLE: What's Centric Manufacturing?

[00:03:37] TRAVIS: So we do... Oh man, what do we do? [00:03:40] Um, primarily we build steel buildings, so steel building packages. We build, uh, if I have in the shop, we design and build them.

[00:03:48] Um, we build and [00:03:50] design and sometimes maintain, uh, feed mills, so for a lot of farmers in the area. We'll, um, yeah, kind of design, build, and, [00:04:00] uh, do custom work for others. But then we have, we build the actual bulk material handling equipment, so we'll build bucket elevators, drag chains, augers, all that kind of stuff.

[00:04:09] We [00:04:10] build it and sell them to a lot of dealers.

[00:04:12] KYLE: Who would do that here in, in BC?

[00:04:15] GARY: Well, there'd be a lot of different manufacturers, but that-- this is an interesting conversation. I don't wanna talk [00:04:20] about it, some of it now live- ... 'cause I'm just thinking. My wheels are turning. But sorry, um, always cagey, right?

[00:04:28] Um, [00:04:30] are you- Advantage,

[00:04:30] KYLE: advantage, advantage.

[00:04:31] GARY: Do you sign with dealers or you guys just sell to whoever wants to buy it and resell your stuff?

[00:04:36] TRAVIS: Yeah, we-- it's mostly-- so we don't do much for exclusivity [00:04:40] for the most part. But yeah, we'll, we'll-- typically, when we work with our dealers, they get better margins, right, than- Yeah.

[00:04:45] What

[00:04:46] GARY: type of buckets are you selling?

[00:04:47] TRAVIS: So bucket elevators, like a lot of times, so like for grain [00:04:50] handling equipment and all that kind of stuff. Okay,

[00:04:51] GARY: pretty specific equipment.

[00:04:52] TRAVIS: Yeah. So

[00:04:53] GARY: it's- 'Cause what, what we deal with at our dealership would be like HLA attachments, right? Right. And it's not proprietary- Yeah

[00:04:58] and they will literally sell to anybody.

[00:04:59] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:04:59] GARY: [00:05:00] Now, they sell bigger discounts if you buy more.

[00:05:03] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:05:03] GARY: And obviously they're not selling direct-

[00:05:05] TRAVIS: Yeah ...

[00:05:05] GARY: to the consumer at all. So you still sell direct to the customer?

[00:05:08] TRAVIS: Yes. Yeah. So in our [00:05:10] local area, we sell direct. We don't-- So if we install it, typically we, we sell direct.

[00:05:15] A lot of times if we don't install it, we'll go to just dealers. So if it were-- [00:05:20] I don't like working too far away, so if it's any- Do

[00:05:21] GARY: dealers get frustrated?

[00:05:23] TRAVIS: No, because I think the industry we're in is so spread out. Like w- us in our little epicenter, [00:05:30] most of the dealers that I sell to are more Western Canada-oriented.

[00:05:33] Um-

[00:05:34] GARY: So the-- I guess what I'm trying to say is are those- And just

[00:05:36] KYLE: to clarify, you're in Southern Alberta for

[00:05:37] TRAVIS: everyone listening.

[00:05:37] GARY: Yeah.

[00:05:38] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:05:38] GARY: So those are [00:05:40] your customers. There's not people that would be like, you know, guys that are running dealerships in Saskatchewan that their customers are all of a sudden calling you to buy from you directly.

[00:05:48] No. Okay.

[00:05:48] TRAVIS: So I make it pretty clear with my dealers [00:05:50] that, like, if, if you're-- it's very back and forth. So if you're-- Like, tell me who you're trying to sell to, and I'll make sure that I don't... Like, if they contact me directly, it's like, "No." [00:06:00] Right? So we work really well back and forth. It's not like just a, "Hey, send an email.

[00:06:04] I'd like 42 buckets." It's a really-- We talk a lot. You- It's all custom stuff. Helps. It's all [00:06:10] custom stuff, right? And so they're gonna come to me- Okay, this is a

[00:06:12] GARY: really dumb question, but like you, when you say 42 buckets, what are these buckets being used for?

[00:06:16] TRAVIS: So if you Google... Well, so it's a bucket elevator, right?

[00:06:19] So [00:06:20] grain handling. So if you go just outside here, that farm there has got that thing in the middle with spouts going down to bins.

[00:06:26] GARY: Yeah.

[00:06:26] TRAVIS: So we build those basically is a lot of what we do. Okay. [00:06:30] So, um, like trial, for example there. Yeah. Like we build all the stuff that moves grain- Inside ... in that equipment in there.

[00:06:36] In

[00:06:36] GARY: the elevator.

[00:06:37] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:06:37] KYLE: So like any of

[00:06:38] GARY: those- So not on dairies, on grain, on [00:06:40] mostly on mills. It's

[00:06:40] TRAVIS: mostly feed- It'd be all mill related ... with feedlots, right? Because in Southern Alberta there, we have a lot of-

[00:06:45] GARY: Chuning through so much grain.

[00:06:46] KYLE: Yeah. So he's working, they need his mill here in Chilliwack. Um, that big dog plant in [00:06:50] Chilliwack Central, he did stuff for them.

[00:06:52] GARY: Yeah.

[00:06:53] KYLE: Like on, on like a- Top,

[00:06:54] GARY: Toplo. Okay.

[00:06:56] KYLE: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:57] GARY: Done some work for them, but- Okay. Interesting. So yeah, we [00:07:00] do that. Um- Do you have partners in that business? No. Just

[00:07:04] KYLE: me. Just a good coach.

[00:07:07] GARY: Self-professed.

[00:07:09] TRAVIS: So [00:07:10] then we do a lot of- Not like

[00:07:10] GARY: about

[00:07:11] TRAVIS: yourself. We do a lot of structural steel for the, um, grain handling world too, like structures that you put bins on top so you can drive underneath them and- Okay.

[00:07:19] Like if you drive [00:07:20] through Celina, you see a lot of them, like towers that hold up these bucket elevators. Okay. They look like scaffolding in the middle of your feed mill.

[00:07:26] GARY: Okay.

[00:07:26] TRAVIS: And then we built the auto overhead crane, [00:07:30] um- I know, and then just random stuff

[00:07:33] GARY: Did you start just randomly working on welding and stuff?

[00:07:36] Is that how you got into that space, or how did that business come to fruition?

[00:07:39] TRAVIS: Um, [00:07:40] so I st- um, I did two years of machining school, and then I got bored. I, I'm a very scatterbrained kind of person. I can see that. I can't focus for long. I

[00:07:49] GARY: [00:07:50] can see that. We'll get to that

[00:07:51] TRAVIS: when I see your shirt. Yeah. Um, so I was, yeah, had a machining company for two years, and then I decided that, uh, that [00:08:00] was too much stress for me, so...

[00:08:02] 'Cause it was just by myself, so then I went to go work for a guy that was supposed to run a shop, and then we started doing more of this millwork, or he was doing that [00:08:10] already, so I was supposed to run the shop for him. And then about two years into that, um, I decided that I was gonna be stressed out regardless whether I owned it or not, so I might as well own it.

[00:08:19] So I [00:08:20] partnered up with him. We did a fab shop, and then I got bought out of that two years later, give or take, and then we started this. And, uh, this has been- And how many- ... almost five years now. Okay. [00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:30] KYLE: Five years, and you what? You have, like-

[00:08:32] TRAVIS: Decentric,

[00:08:33] KYLE: yeah ... um, like 12 guys just working?

[00:08:35] TRAVIS: Yeah. So we got it-- Well, it depends.

[00:08:37] I have to do the count again, but I think all involved right now, we [00:08:40] got about 12 people right now in Decentric, so it's been pretty crazy.

[00:08:45] GARY: Okay, and do you have, um, management-type people in that business, or just- We

[00:08:49] TRAVIS: do now.

[00:08:49] GARY: You [00:08:50] do now. Yeah. Okay, so you're not managing, uh, every-- You're not hands-on in every last thing.

[00:08:54] TRAVIS: No, like it's, I'd say two years ago, before we started coaching really, I mean, if you read his LinkedIn profile [00:09:00] now that I'm plastered all over his crap, uh, yeah, so two years ago, I was just me, one other, I had a subcontractor, and I [00:09:10] had one, he's still my number two now. And so when I hired him, I kind of wanted him to take over, but I had a hard time letting go of a lot of things, right?

[00:09:19] What else is new?

[00:09:19] KYLE: [00:09:20] Yeah. Very

[00:09:20] GARY: typical.

[00:09:20] TRAVIS: Um-

[00:09:21] KYLE: You don't, you don't, you don't have-

[00:09:22] GARY: I don't identify with that at

[00:09:23] TRAVIS: all. No. No, I bet not. Um- Neither, neither do

[00:09:26] KYLE: I.

[00:09:26] TRAVIS: Yeah. The thing is, y- like, I wanted to do all [00:09:30] the, the fun stuff, I guess, right? And then leave all the grunt work, I guess, in a way, and that just doesn't work, right?

[00:09:37] GARY: Not fair. No-

[00:09:38] TRAVIS: So

[00:09:38] GARY: I'm- No great number two will be [00:09:40] okay with that. No.

[00:09:40] TRAVIS: No, and I thankfully stuck it out, 'cause I think it would've been about a year ago that I basically took the whole building side, the steel buildings that we build. He just takes that [00:09:50] whole thing. So if I get a lead, it goes to him. Okay. And from there, he basically takes care of the whole works from A to B.

[00:09:56] GARY: So there, again, this is a dumb question, but, like, are you, are you literally [00:10:00] manufacturing the steel? Like, are you taking raw steel- Yeah ... and turning it into a steel building?

[00:10:03] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:10:03] GARY: Okay. Interesting.

[00:10:04] TRAVIS: Yeah. So

[00:10:06] GARY: we- And what would be your advantage? Big, big beams

[00:10:07] KYLE: on the yard. Yeah.

[00:10:08] GARY: Okay.

[00:10:09] TRAVIS: [00:10:10] Yeah, so we got a, yeah, 7,000 square foot shop with cranes and all nine yards in it that we're- Okay.

[00:10:14] GARY: And do you own that building, or do you rent that? Yeah. Okay, you own that too. And what town is that in?

[00:10:18] TRAVIS: Just outside Coaldale. [00:10:20] Okay. So we bought an acreage, bare land, two years ago, give or take. Yeah, September will be two years ago. We built a house and a shop and

[00:10:26] GARY: a- Okay ...

[00:10:27] TRAVIS: spent, um- Do

[00:10:28] GARY: you live where you work?

[00:10:29] Yeah. [00:10:30] Okay.

[00:10:30] TRAVIS: Yeah, so we started, uh, when I got bought out, I had a different acreage just with a little 30 by 30 100-year-old building in there that we- That you worked in ... started in. [00:10:40] Then I had a Quonset on the yard too that had just dirt floor and everything, so we took the... Yeah, fixed that all up, turned it into a shop, worked out of there, and then I wanted to expand there, and the neighbors [00:10:50] said-

[00:10:50] GARY: No way

[00:10:50] TRAVIS: not happening.

[00:10:51] GARY: No, no. They didn't know

[00:10:52] TRAVIS: about it. 'Cause I never got a permit to start with to, to work out of there, and then so I went to expand my building, and they're like, "Uh, what do you mean you're [00:11:00] working out of here?"

[00:11:01] GARY: So where you're operating out of now, is that legal?

[00:11:03] TRAVIS: Yeah. Yeah, so I didn't wanna run through that process again.

[00:11:05] Like,

[00:11:06] GARY: so- Okay, so you're on a property where you're allowed to do manufacturing. Yeah. Yeah. Is [00:11:10] it agricultural land?

[00:11:10] TRAVIS: Yeah, it's rural ag.

[00:11:12] GARY: Okay. Yeah, so Lethbridge County- And you have a lot of freedom there ... is really good for...

[00:11:15] TRAVIS: They're

[00:11:15] GARY: really

[00:11:16] TRAVIS: pro-business

[00:11:16] GARY: in the last,

[00:11:17] TRAVIS: from what I can understand, 10, 15 years. It [00:11:20] really...

[00:11:20] A lot of their tax revenue comes from that area. I get

[00:11:22] KYLE: that. So even, even though you're just outside of Coaldale, it's under Lethbridge jurisdiction?

[00:11:24] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:11:25] GARY: Be very close, 'cause you'd be between Coaldale and Lethbridge, right?

[00:11:27] TRAVIS: We're all just on the east side of Le- [00:11:30] of

[00:11:30] GARY: Coaldale. On the other side. Yeah. Okay. So what would be the, um- Like, why would businesses set up right in town then if they could be like you and be kind of on ag land and run a, build a big [00:11:40] shop?

[00:11:40] Is it just literally- It's

[00:11:41] TRAVIS: hard to find ag land, first of all. Like, finding a bare piece of... Like, so we bought 12 acres of bare land.

[00:11:47] GARY: Which is not that common. No.

[00:11:48] TRAVIS: No. Not [00:11:50] with irrigation on it, not with, like, city water on it. We got all these things. It's right on the highway. Um-

[00:11:55] GARY: Is it right on Highway 3?

[00:11:57] TRAVIS: On Highway...

[00:11:58] No, it's on the GL Road. It's Highway [00:12:00] 512.

[00:12:00] GARY: Okay.

[00:12:01] TRAVIS: So it's not like I don't really care about the traffic, to be honest. You don't

[00:12:03] GARY: need it. I don't need it. You don't need it for your business. No.

[00:12:06] TRAVIS: But, um, Lethbridge County is like, they really want [00:12:10] these businesses to come in there. And so you look at something like Coaldale, we were considering either...

[00:12:15] So go back a bit. I was gonna expand. They wouldn't let me, so I had to [00:12:20] find something new. So I either needed to move to Coaldale or, like, into town, or find a new piece of acreage to build, and I really, really enjoyed working on my [00:12:30] own yard there, right? You go inside, go say hi to the kids, come home for lunch.

[00:12:33] You're just there, right? You roll out of bed in the morning, you know, right

[00:12:38] GARY: to sleep out your eyes. Work never leaves though,

[00:12:39] TRAVIS: right? There's, [00:12:40] that is the problem, right? Especially with that place because- Oh, it doesn't

[00:12:42] KYLE: matter

[00:12:43] TRAVIS: if it's far away ... it doesn't matter if it's far, it still never leaves. Yeah.

[00:12:45] KYLE: That is baked in.

[00:12:46] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:12:47] KYLE: Didn't we see that in the Dutch, uh, in the AI report?

[00:12:49] TRAVIS: Yes. [00:12:50] So we, uh, we were looking at Coaldale, but their land was, right now their commercial land's 350-ish thousand an acre. So for the land I needed-

[00:12:58] KYLE: Cheap.

[00:12:59] TRAVIS: Yeah. [00:13:00] So just the land base I needed for my manufacturing company there, I, um, I could buy this whole acreage land for, for just this, like, it was actually- How [00:13:10] much, how much would commercial here- Yeah,

[00:13:11] GARY: so it'd be 10 times that.

[00:13:12] But it's funny 'cause I just bought two different chunks, and it's like, the thing is, is that it doesn't make sense here either.

[00:13:18] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:13:18] GARY: Like, you can't produce as [00:13:20] a general rule unless you have a phenomenal business. You're not... And actually that, the entire structure now, the fabric that everything's built on is kind of, I don't wanna say crumbling-

[00:13:27] KYLE: Yeah

[00:13:28] GARY: but it's for sure sagging. And so [00:13:30] you're seeing, you know, and, and I think there it'd be interesting to see if you see that correction at some point too. Yeah. Like, how much of the, um, one of the things I was gonna ask you, 'cause you're an Albertan and you're right in the thick of it, and [00:13:40] maybe-

[00:13:40] KYLE: Before you do that, I wanna ask you about one other thing.

[00:13:41] Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. He said that Lethbridge was really pro-business and more recently- Definitely county, yeah ... recently, and, and trying to, uh, allow for more things like that, and talking about running for city council last [00:13:50] time. Yeah. Even though no campaign managers reached out yet. Would that be something that in Chilliwack, uh, the city council has jurisdiction over in, in, in making it easier for businesses to [00:14:00] set up here or, or to build in different places?

[00:14:02] Or is that kinda different?

[00:14:02] GARY: Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is in there, again, it comes down to comparison, right? So obviously there again, you're comparing Lethbridge to Coaldale. [00:14:10]

[00:14:10] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:14:10] GARY: And it would be the same thing here where, you know, in Chilliwack would be very pro-business. Like, there's a reason that every huge...

[00:14:16] Like, nobody's setting up shop in Abbotsford. Oh, uh,

[00:14:18] KYLE: Molson

[00:14:18] GARY: and- Oh, all these places. I [00:14:20] mean, Red Bull, like- The

[00:14:20] KYLE: Red Bull, it's the first Red Bull plant in North America, in Chilliwack here, that creates the powder, 'cause they're gonna create the powder here, not just, it's not a bottling plant. Yeah. First place in North America that [00:14:30] has that.

[00:14:30] GARY: Yeah. It's-

[00:14:31] KYLE: powder plant.

[00:14:32] GARY: Like, we had some unique situations where we, like, so we have the agricultural land reserve- Yes ... which is very different than Alberta. And so your land price, obviously, unless [00:14:40] you all of a sudden have to start protecting farmland, which you won't- Yeah ... 'cause you have so much, um, we just, you just naturally won't have the crazy high price of land.

[00:14:48] Yeah. But your commercial real [00:14:50] estate, like if it's 350 an acre in Coaldale, that's still quite a bit of money.

[00:14:53] TRAVIS: Well, so the last subdivision they did was about 10 years ago, and they were selling for like 120,000 an acre.

[00:14:58] KYLE: Yeah. I mean, [00:15:00]

[00:15:00] GARY: that's everywhere. Like, it's just- For us out there, like we're just,

[00:15:01] TRAVIS: we, we

[00:15:01] GARY: were- But everything's inflated there now.

[00:15:03] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:15:03] GARY: Oh, is that because of the beef industry? Like, I think it's because of the beef industry.

[00:15:07] TRAVIS: Well, they keep telling us it's because the costs are so [00:15:10] high now that nobody will s- like, nobody will do these developments. So they don't buy the baseline for that much, right? But it's just, they say the cost of developing that, like the red tape involved [00:15:20] nowadays, like you even look into it, it's like how do you guys...

[00:15:22] The stuff they have to do- Okay ... um, gets so expensive that they need that to start making money.

[00:15:27] GARY: So what's commercial raw land in Lethbridge compared to [00:15:30] Coaldale? I'm assuming it's way more.

[00:15:31] TRAVIS: It's quite a bit more. It's, it's getting close now. Last I checked, I think it was about 500,000 an acre in Lethbridge, give or take where you're going, depending on the zoning and who's beside you and stuff.

[00:15:39] But [00:15:40] Coaldale, their taxes are lower. Like, I think, um, Lethbridge, if I remember right, they're getting close to 2%. I think Coaldale's right around 1%. In Lethbridge County it's, it's similar to [00:15:50] Coaldale, a little bit less, but the biggest thing for me was I wanted to work on my... I just didn't wanna give that up, the whole working on my own place.

[00:15:57] And like I said, I could buy this whole [00:16:00] chunk of new land for less than I could've built in Coaldale for, plus then I could, I have way more freedom to build what I want.

[00:16:07] GARY: So did you build a big enough shop?

[00:16:08] TRAVIS: No, not even [00:16:10] close.

[00:16:10] GARY: Okay. You can double it. Well, it's funny 'cause that's always like, when you built it, obviously it would've probably been a stretch, and you probably thought- Yep

[00:16:15] "Oh, I'm overbuilding." Yeah. At least try to overbuild. Well,

[00:16:17] TRAVIS: we had two people, right? And I mean, we were out of a 40 by [00:16:20] 70, and we built... So basically we tripled almost in square foot. I thought, that's lovely. This is g- I mean, we're never gonna need more than this, right? Yeah. And next thing you know- Can you add

[00:16:29] GARY: onto

[00:16:29] TRAVIS: your shop?

[00:16:29] Yeah. [00:16:30] Okay. You definitely can. Yeah, so we, I actually just went... Like, so Lethbridge County's been really good. They, um, we just changed a bunch of bylaws to allow us to build. [00:16:40] So we're under what's called a specialty manufacturing permit. So it's still zoned rural ag, and you can do up to, it was up to 10,000 square feet, but now you can go up to 15,000, I think, square feet.[00:16:50]

[00:16:50] GARY: So are you allowed to be there because you're building stuff for the agricultural industry?

[00:16:54] TRAVIS: Kind of. Ish, yeah. I mean, the rules are pretty- Gray ... it, [00:17:00] when it comes to the county, as long as your neighbors don't care, you can do a lot. Okay, so that would be the- As soon as your neighbors complain-

[00:17:05] GARY: That would be the same here.

[00:17:06] Everything in Chilliwack is complaint-driven. Yeah. So actually they don't ever investigate unless the [00:17:10] neighbors complain. Yeah. Which is interesting because, of course, now in a competitive spot, you know- Yeah ... some people are getting away with murder, and the next guy's hardly even skirting the rules, and he's getting called in by some psychopath [00:17:20] that doesn't like him, right?

[00:17:20] So.

[00:17:21] TRAVIS: Yeah, so when we bought this, we just went around to the neighbors and made sure everybody was okay with it, and we bought a piece of specifically the closest guys within an eighth of a mile, 'cause last time they were too close, so I'm like, okay, [00:17:30] wanted to make sure I'm as far away as possible.

[00:17:31] GARY: Yeah, 'cause the noise, man, coming out of your shop.

[00:17:35] TRAVIS: You know what? I- Extruded ... looking back, like we w- we did make... Like, it's, it's the traffic, right? It's, [00:17:40] it's telehandlers flying around. Trucks coming in and out. It's trucks coming and going. And looking back now, I, I do think that- It was all for the best. It wasn't fun at the time. I [00:17:50] was pretty upset about it, but I wouldn't-

[00:17:52] GARY: That's a good lesson right there, right?

[00:17:54] TRAVIS: Yeah. I'll have a little more faith.

[00:17:57] KYLE: And then he got the, the Pristine side, which is the shirt. [00:18:00] You had a question about?

[00:18:01] GARY: I just thought it was funny 'cause, I mean, I guess my question at a, without knowing anything would be like- Why? ... why would you be in, yeah, why would you be in [00:18:10] the, it's the, the question people ask me and I never have an answer for.

[00:18:12] Why would you be in the gun

[00:18:14] KYLE: action space? I mean, we literally had this conversation this morning- Yeah ... 'cause I remembered the conversation that we had on the podcast about you starting Rosedale Tractor. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, [00:18:20] how'd you come to that decision? Did you pray about it?" And you were like, "Uh..."

[00:18:25] TRAVIS: I just started coaching with Kyle, and one call I showed up, I'm like, "So I, uh, yeah, I [00:18:30] bought Pristine." And he's like, "Uh, why?"

[00:18:33] GARY: Yeah.

[00:18:34] TRAVIS: And I'm

[00:18:34] GARY: like- You did not have an answer.

[00:18:35] TRAVIS: No. Well, it just, it kind of, um- Do you like

[00:18:37] GARY: guns?

[00:18:39] TRAVIS: I do like them. I [00:18:40] never really had time to shoot them. I still, I think we've owned the company for a year and a half, and I finally went out shooting with Levi, but, um-

[00:18:46] GARY: You own it with somebody else?

[00:18:47] TRAVIS: Yeah. Yeah, so that, it came across- [00:18:50] Levi Yeah.

[00:18:50] KYLE: Levi Middlekoop, great guy.

[00:18:51] TRAVIS: Yeah. We have a great ad read for him.

[00:18:53] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:18:55] GARY: Is he cl- live by you? Is

[00:18:56] TRAVIS: he over- He lives in Fort Macleod.

[00:18:57] GARY: Okay.

[00:18:57] TRAVIS: Yeah, so shops in Fort Macleod. Um, came [00:19:00] across, yeah, we were, I was in Guatemala-

[00:19:01] KYLE: And, and just to clarify, a lot of people wouldn't necessarily know what an action is just on, on its own.

[00:19:05] So it's, it's like, if you think of a rifle, it's the piece where the cartridge goes into to cycle it. [00:19:10] And so it's on- For your bolt ... not your- You're

[00:19:11] GARY: not making guns, you're making the actions.

[00:19:13] KYLE: No, that, that's the gun. That's the par- the part that's serialized.

[00:19:15] GARY: Yeah. But

[00:19:15] KYLE: you still need to add a barrel to the front of it.

[00:19:17] GARY: Okay, so that would be very regulated. Yeah. Whereas chassis would not [00:19:20] be.

[00:19:20] KYLE: Correct.

[00:19:20] GARY: Okay. Yeah. So a lot of people would not realize that.

[00:19:23] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:19:23] GARY: I would ne- I- Yeah ... I've only known about guns 'cause I'm- Yeah ...

[00:19:26] KYLE: friends with gun- So you can buy just an action, and then you can go buy your own barrel and your own trigger and your own [00:19:30] stock and put it together.

[00:19:31] Or-

[00:19:31] GARY: But the action would be the part that you would manufacture- Yeah, so we manufacture the action ... that's the part that you would need to- Yeah ... you would have to have a, uh- FAC for ... an FAC to buy- [00:19:40] Yeah ... the action. Yeah. But, but you wouldn't need it to buy the- Barrel ... stock and the barrel.

[00:19:43] KYLE: Stocks, trigger, nothing, yeah.

[00:19:45] GARY: So that's why- Barrels are suppo-

[00:19:45] TRAVIS: are starting to get a little bit regulated, like when you import them and stuff, they still have to be serialized and stuff, [00:19:50] but they're not like FAC

[00:19:51] GARY: regulated. So sorry, is the

[00:19:52] TRAVIS: trigger not even a part of what you're making? No. That's separate as well? Yeah.

[00:19:55] KYLE: It hangs off the bottom.

[00:19:56] So we

[00:19:57] TRAVIS: just make the action. The action is- Yeah ... the part the, where the [00:20:00] bolt, the- Yeah ... where the- It's like, a

[00:20:01] KYLE: cycle like on a, on a bolt action rifle. Okay. Yeah.

[00:20:03] TRAVIS: So yeah, we'll build every- like if somebody wants a custom gun, we, we do build them. But like we just [00:20:10] manufacture the, the action part. So if somebody wants a s- a specific gun, they can come to us, say, "Hey, I want this stock, this trigger, this barrel, this..."

[00:20:18] Yeah. And whichever action [00:20:20] design they want. And

[00:20:20] GARY: who are you selling your actions to?

[00:20:22] TRAVIS: Um, re- a lot of dealers all over. So we got, yeah, everything from here to New Zealand, Australia, a couple, I think we could [00:20:30] sell a few to Norway. Um-

[00:20:32] GARY: So you're not selling to other, to gun manufacturers?

[00:20:35] TRAVIS: Uh, not to someone like I'd say like Tika, but- So- It'd be to-

[00:20:38] KYLE: They make, they make their own guns.

[00:20:39] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:20:39] KYLE: It'd [00:20:40] be custom

[00:20:40] TRAVIS: gun-

[00:20:40] KYLE: So just like gun builders. Like if you compare it to trucks, Michelin sold tires to Ford, so like MRT- Yeah ... would sell chassis to Savage or Remington. Yeah. Uh, but they make their own engine. [00:20:50] Right? And so the action is like the engine of the, the rifle,

[00:20:53] GARY: basically So all these manufacturers are making their own actions

[00:20:55] KYLE: Yeah, that's that thing they all make themselves, and then some also make their own barrels

[00:20:59] GARY: But some would [00:21:00] not, right?

[00:21:00] Yeah There would be gun dealers, gun manufacturers that would not,

[00:21:03] KYLE: or- There is some gun manufacturers that would white label certain ones Other people's- Like, so if you think of Howa Other pe- yeah ... Howa is made [00:21:10] in Japan, and Weatherby Vanguard is actually a Howa, and it's just rebranded

[00:21:16] GARY: Rebranded The Weatherby is a- Which is very common in equipment manufacturing Yeah Very common

[00:21:19] KYLE: [00:21:20] It's not super common on the gun side, but it, there is a bunch of that.

[00:21:22] Like, weath- a lot of people wouldn't know that a, a Weatherby Vanguard is that, that-

[00:21:25] GARY: So I'm, I'm trying to understand, who would buy a pristine action?

[00:21:28] TRAVIS: So you get [00:21:30] your average guy who wants to get into competitive shooting or just long-range shooting Yeah They'll come on our website, they'll buy an action, they'll talk to Levi, they'll phone us.

[00:21:38] We'll sell direct to them, and a lot of times those'll [00:21:40] be, like, either just an action or a full custom build or whatever we want to do. Um- '

[00:21:45] KYLE: Cause you, you could buy an action and then- Or you'd get- ... and then you could go buy a barrel from somewhere and buy a trigger from somewhere. [00:21:50] You'll likely have to get the barrel, um, go to a gunsmith to spin it on there

[00:21:54] TRAVIS: Yeah

[00:21:54] KYLE: Um, you can drop in-

[00:21:55] GARY: Feels like a very, very s- Yeah

[00:21:57] specific small business. Yes Like, how do you, how much do you sell an [00:22:00] action for?

[00:22:00] TRAVIS: Uh, retail, depending on what, they go from, I think, 1,100 to 1,400 Canadian

[00:22:05] GARY: Okay. And why would someone buy your action over any other action?

[00:22:08] TRAVIS: Oh, that's the question we keep asking ourselves [00:22:10] so we can figure out our marketing.

[00:22:11] But-

[00:22:11] GARY: Yeah ...

[00:22:11] TRAVIS: um, so let's say you'd buy ours over, like, a production run rifle just because your-

[00:22:17] KYLE: Tolerance

[00:22:18] TRAVIS: is everywhere ... your tolerances are just better. [00:22:20] So, like, say for example Tikka. I have a Tikka that I cannot, like, it does not shoot. It just doesn't. My friend's got a Tikka that will blast 1,000 yards and hit everything [00:22:30] every time.

[00:22:31] Why? I don't know. Their chambering's a little different, just not quite right. Yeah So a lot of times you can buy a Tikka, let's say for example, take it to a gunsmith, and they do, like, a blueprint on it [00:22:40] they call it, where they'll go free everything up and true everything just so, and then they'll shoot really well.

[00:22:45] But guys like that want to do PRS or these, these rifle competitions, they'll just buy [00:22:50] an action. They wanna put their own specific barrel on it, like this length, this twist, all this kind of stuff. They wanna buy their own chassis, their own trigger, and they wanna build this thing.

[00:22:58] GARY: But- How do you get yours so [00:23:00] precise?

[00:23:01] KYLE: It's all, it's all about just repeatability

[00:23:04] GARY: No, that can't be because Tikka would be repeatability. Wait, what, what, what- I mean, what I'm trying to say is in the, you know, and I didn't even [00:23:10] know- Yeah ... that about guns. Yeah. And that actually, I could see that 'cause I'm just like, man, if you pound out a million of them, like- Yeah

[00:23:15] you know, all of a sudden- It's gonna, the

[00:23:16] KYLE: tolerance is gonna be a

[00:23:16] GARY: little off ... you're gonna have some issues. Yeah. Yeah, you're just, you know, you're

[00:23:19] TRAVIS: gonna- The difference is you've got [00:23:20] somebody that's like, instead of having, let's say, a plant, okay, you're building bolt heads here, uh, bolts here, receivers here.

[00:23:28] Like, you've got all these different parts and they just [00:23:30] grab a couple out of a bin, put them together, spin them off, go. Right? We've got somebody, okay, we build this, we build this. So, so yeah,

[00:23:35] KYLE: and then at about 100 yards you'd be shooting a Savage 110. The bolt is kinda a little [00:23:40] sloppy, a little bit- Yeah

[00:23:41] in the back, like, not like, you know, it's- Tight,

[00:23:43] TRAVIS: yeah ...

[00:23:43] KYLE: tight. Um, I mean, a huge amount is in the barrel as well- Yeah ... for the accuracy of your rifle. But you're at 100 yards, you're shooting at like a [00:23:50] two-inch group or inch and a half group. Yeah. So you have five shots, if, if you measure in a circle, well, if you'd be shooting like a custom rifle, you could shoot like a half-inch group or quarter-inch group, depending on how good of a shooter [00:24:00] you are.

[00:24:00] GARY: So a lot of it is on the gun then, obviously. Yeah. Well, 'cause I think it's the gun's fault, right? Like, the other night I baited, I have four raccoons living in our shrubs. Oh, that's right. And I baited them with cat food. I had a shotgun. I had a [00:24:10] Benelli semi-automatic shotgun. I missed all four of them. Oh, my.

[00:24:13] Super

[00:24:13] KYLE: sport?

[00:24:13] GARY: No, another one- Oh ... 'cause I have lots of them. And I, and then all of a sudden the coons are chasing me. I was freaking out. Marie just heard this, woke [00:24:20] up the whole house, right?

[00:24:20] KYLE: It's a, it's a wild story. My first place, I-

[00:24:22] GARY: I'll pay someone to shoot these coons, by the way. This is an open invite. If someone wants to sit at my house, they'll, they'll literally, you can sit in the back-

[00:24:28] KYLE: Can I, can I use an old gun with a good scope?

[00:24:28] GARY: Yeah. You can literally, [00:24:30] I'll pay you per coon. If you shoot, get all four in one shot, you get a bonus.

[00:24:33] KYLE: Okay. So my first-

[00:24:34] GARY: Sorry,

[00:24:35] KYLE: total rabbit trail ... at my first place, I had a little cat flap and the coons came in to eat the cat food, and [00:24:40] I had a .22 with subsonics, so they don't shoot, um, under, uh, under what?

[00:24:45] 1,100?

[00:24:46] TRAVIS: Yeah, speed of sound, whatever that is.

[00:24:47] KYLE: I think it's like- Yeah, whatever that is. And so they're not as loud, so it sound more like [00:24:50] a pellet gun, so I can shoot it in town. And so I was in my garage like 10- Allegedly ... 10 o'clock at night and I'm shooting these coons in my garage, but they're not going fast enough to kill them, so I'm just injuring [00:25:00] them because the, the, the ammo's not going fast enough 'cause it's subsonic.

[00:25:04] It's not going through the coons, so they're just getting, like, bloody. Man, that's gross. And so they're climb- climbing up- Gross ... the side of my garage- They're

[00:25:09] GARY: really

[00:25:09] KYLE: [00:25:10] dangerous, man ... rails, and there's like blood- Gross, gross ... all up the side of the garage.

[00:25:13] GARY: Gross.

[00:25:13] KYLE: Eventually got him out, 10 o'clock at

[00:25:15] GARY: night, sprayed my pants down.

[00:25:15] Anyways, I don't wanna maim any, I don't wanna maim any animals, I want them dead, right? Like, it's like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... and they're eating [00:25:20] the neighbor's chickens and everybody- Yeah ... and we actually have a lot of horses next door, so they're- They're a pest ... they're, they, they need to be gone. Well, like, to

[00:25:24] TRAVIS: answer your question, like, I always

[00:25:26] So I had this Tikka that I couldn't, like 300 yards, I couldn't hit a six-inch [00:25:30] plate. Like, I just could not figure it out. There must be something else

[00:25:31] KYLE: going on there though, 'cause a Tikka is probably the best production rifle- Yeah ... you can buy.

[00:25:37] TRAVIS: I know I've, I've had it so my brother-in-law just- Oh wow, that's a good plug for

[00:25:38] GARY: Tikka

[00:25:39] TRAVIS: my [00:25:40] brother-in-law has one. Yeah, it's incredible. He's got the same problem. It's a good gun.

[00:25:41] KYLE: Very good gun.

[00:25:42] GARY: Okay.

[00:25:42] TRAVIS: But he, he once again, like four or five-inch plate, uh, 200 yards and you just can't seem to get the thing to dial in. And so I've always, [00:25:50] you know, as the typical, uh, you know, guy like to blame myself, I thought I just can't, I just gotta learn how to shoot, right?

[00:25:56] And so Levi's built me a couple of guns now, and the other [00:26:00] day we went to some targets, some papers, right? And you're just, you're just stacking at 100 yards. That's insane. You just, y- they're all touching. Like you'd shoot five shots and they're touching.

[00:26:09] KYLE: So 100 yards you're [00:26:10] gonna make a kill no matter what with both rifles.

[00:26:11] Yeah. But it really matters when it goes the distance, right? Yeah. 'Cause it, it amplifies, so your f- two-inch group at, uh, 100 yards is what? A 12-inch group at 1,000 yards?

[00:26:19] TRAVIS: [00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:20] KYLE: Or

[00:26:21] GARY: not- Which matters if you're trying to kill a, an animal at-

[00:26:24] KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Or, or a, in a rifle competition when you have, you

[00:26:27] TRAVIS: know- It's mostly competitors, right?

[00:26:28] Like guy- the [00:26:30] thing is the custom actions Most of the time when you're, you're hunting, even if you have that good of a gun, it's-

[00:26:36] GARY: It's not what you're using for hunting, right?

[00:26:38] TRAVIS: Well, and I, I wouldn't say it's [00:26:40] unethical, but like your chances of maiming an animal at 800 yards are a lot worse than 400. Yeah, most people can't kill something- Nobody's shooting, like on maybe a sheep hunt where you're really [00:26:50] going, but if you're gonna go deer hunting, if you can't get closer than 800 yards, you probably shouldn't be hunting.

[00:26:54] You're not shooting this, you should

[00:26:54] GARY: not be hunting.

[00:26:55] TRAVIS: Right? So you don't need, it, it's mostly competition guys, and like you've always [00:27:00] said, it's guys that wanna put a cool gun on their wall, and they take it down and show their buddy, and-

[00:27:03] GARY: I guess that part I'm just wondering how, how can, and there again, maybe you don't have an answer, but I'm like why, like, a- and I, and I'm asking myself [00:27:10] this question.

[00:27:10] Some of the stuff I sell- Yeah ... it's like why would you sell something that, it seems so select and so specific.

[00:27:15] KYLE: There's a market

[00:27:16] GARY: for

[00:27:16] KYLE: it.

[00:27:16] GARY: There's a market for it?

[00:27:17] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:27:17] GARY: Okay.

[00:27:17] KYLE: Like even just barrels, like guys will [00:27:20] replace their barrels after 900 shots, because your barrel wears out, and you, oh, your group op- opens up, and so barrels are consumable.

[00:27:26] TRAVIS: What percent of your actions go into the US? Uh, this [00:27:30] year 20 to 30. Okay. Like, uh, it's hard to say. I don't keep it that close an eye on it, to be honest. Levi does most of that kind of stuff. Okay. I'm just here for moral [00:27:40] support, but- Oh, got

[00:27:40] KYLE: it. It is very niche though, 'cause if, even if you go to Cabela's, there's 200 guns on the wall, two will have a chassis on them.

[00:27:45] Yeah.

[00:27:46] GARY: The rest are all

[00:27:47] TRAVIS: stock guns. Yeah,

[00:27:48] KYLE: all stock guns. So even in the cha- even the [00:27:50] chassis space is very niche compared to, you know, the industry as a whole, 'cause this is even just bolt guns. It's not like semi-autos or shotguns- Yeah ... anything else like that. So the a- it [00:28:00] is niche, but there is like- The

[00:28:01] GARY: people

[00:28:02] KYLE: that

[00:28:02] GARY: are into it-

[00:28:02] there's like six or seven- ... are very passionate about it, and- Oh, and they are

[00:28:04] TRAVIS: tribal ...

[00:28:05] GARY: and they're tribal. Oh, they are tribal. And I do feel like, and I think it's because of the carnage [00:28:10] that's happened in our society in the last few years in Canada, and like some of the like- Yeah ... you know, where like, hey, I couldn't, you know, couldn't pull money out of my bank account.

[00:28:18] Yeah. It's like, okay. When that [00:28:20] happens you're like, uh.

[00:28:21] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:28:21] GARY: You know, you've read 1984, you're, you're thinking, hey, we need to- Well- You wanna own gold and guns at this point.

[00:28:27] KYLE: Yeah, yeah. This is what you, uh, yeah, so go to [00:28:30] pristineactions.com.

[00:28:30] GARY: Yeah.

[00:28:30] KYLE: For your action.

[00:28:31] GARY: Okay.

[00:28:31] KYLE: Talk to Levi. Yeah. Loves talking to people.

[00:28:33] Um, lot of-

[00:28:34] GARY: Does he love to talk more than you do?

[00:28:36] KYLE: No.[00:28:40]

[00:28:40] TRAVIS: I don't know you that well, Travis,

[00:28:41] GARY: but y- you talk as much as Kyle and I put together.

[00:28:45] TRAVIS: Yeah, no, it's, it's fun. Um, it's, it's been a, it's been a wild ride for [00:28:50] sure. Um, but yeah, why, why would somebody buy ours versus like, you touched on the tribal thing It's about building a brand. Like, it, there's a lot of [00:29:00] good

[00:29:00] GARY: actual manufacturers- But it has to be f- it does have to be phenomenal.

[00:29:02] TRAVIS: It is.

[00:29:03] GARY: Yes. Like, so I would agree with both things- Yeah ... in marketing and business, right? It's like, yeah, you wanna, you wanna create that culture. Yeah. Right?

[00:29:09] TRAVIS: And a [00:29:10] product that backs it up.

[00:29:10] GARY: But you do got it, you do have, you have- We've spent

[00:29:12] TRAVIS: the last year and a half dialing in the last, like, "Okay, this is just not..."

[00:29:17] Okay,

[00:29:17] GARY: I'm a perfectionist, right?

[00:29:18] KYLE: So Pristine had been, uh, around [00:29:20] three or four years prior to- Somebody else started it-

[00:29:21] GARY: Somebody else started it ...

[00:29:22] KYLE: you guys bought it. And so- Okay ... a big part of your time has been also, um, refining the product to be something that you want and you [00:29:30] believe in and you'd wanna shoot.

[00:29:31] So they had made a whole bunch of adjustments to it and- Adjustments.

[00:29:33] GARY: That's exciting.

[00:29:34] KYLE: Yeah. Exhausting is a better word for it, but- Yeah.

[00:29:37] GARY: So what I like about a company, and this [00:29:40] is the part that I've, don't know anything about compared to a lot of guys, but, like, I'm learning, like, I wanna have businesses that are sellable.

[00:29:45] TRAVIS: Right.

[00:29:46] GARY: Right? And a lot of the things that I've done in my life, and I'm still doing them, like real estate [00:29:50] or, that's not sellable.

[00:29:51] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:29:51] GARY: Like, if I go build relationships and hustle and it's like, okay, you can get commission, but that's not a sellable business.

[00:29:56] TRAVIS: No.

[00:29:57] GARY: Whereas, like, Pristine, that's a sellable business- Yeah

[00:29:59] right? Which is really cool.

[00:29:59] TRAVIS: [00:30:00] Well, and that's kind of why I was, like, bought it too, or I bought it with Levi, right? So it came across the desk and I, he's been talking to me about doing something together 'cause he was doing concrete work for... [00:30:10] And so this thing came up and he's a gun fanatic, so I'm like, "Well, this sounds like a perfect little match."

[00:30:14] So called him up, said, "You wanna buy a business?" He's like, "Yep."

[00:30:18] GARY: 10.

[00:30:18] TRAVIS: And just like that- Trust the system ... we did it [00:30:20] and-

[00:30:20] GARY: Yeah, you're fine ... a

[00:30:21] TRAVIS: couple months, couple weeks later we're like, "Oh no."

[00:30:23] KYLE: Moving on to a show note about what you just said. Yeah. One of the two things is going to happen economically, you wrote, uh, either we're [00:30:30] all gonna look back and realize we should have bought gold and guns now-

[00:30:33] or are we going to have a lar- or we are going to have a very large depression similar to the 1930s where there's a [00:30:40] very large unemployment and deep poverty.

[00:30:42] GARY: Yeah.

[00:30:42] KYLE: Did you write-

[00:30:43] GARY: Yeah, I put that in there.

[00:30:44] KYLE: Where did that come from?

[00:30:47] GARY: Uh, 'cause what you're seeing now, and it's [00:30:50] like I don't... And most people that listen probably don't care about this or don't understand it, but like, if, if you understand the plumbing of how debt works in our society, um, it's very [00:31:00] different than what we do personally.

[00:31:02] Um, there's a lot of people that go bankrupt every year in our society, and it's, there's a way that it happens and it's, you know, it's not even... [00:31:10] Yeah. It's, you can literally do it so you can do it gracefully because it just happens, and it happens for a lot of reasons. Sometimes people just make a bad choice.

[00:31:17] Sometimes people don't have any financial acumen or haven't [00:31:20] been taught that. Uh, but with the government and the way that money actually works, like the, um, governments can do very different things and they can, uh, that are [00:31:30] really, in my opinion, not right, and they can do it for a very long time. And so that's kinda what's been happening.

[00:31:36] And, you know, I've, I've only [00:31:40] realized it even recently, honestly. I read like The Death of Money. There's a book about the Weimar Republic, which, you know, we learned about in school. Mm. We had great social studies teachers at our school, and we, you know, you learn [00:31:50] about how, you know, they, they, yeah, they printed money, right?

[00:31:52] And then people would take their wheelbarrow in the 1920s. Am I saying this right? Yeah. In the 1920s in Germany.

[00:31:59] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:31:59] GARY: [00:32:00] And they would go buy a loaf of bread. And then the prices were changing so quickly, like they were changing by the hour. Yeah. And then of course, that's hyperinflation. Like, when people know 100% that in five minutes if they don't [00:32:10] buy something it's gonna be more money in a few, in an hour, they obviously rush out to buy that.

[00:32:13] And so we had that here in a, in a very, very, I don't wanna say minor way, 'cause it was actually pretty insane. But we had that in Canada and [00:32:20] the US in, in the, in 2021-

[00:32:22] KYLE: Right ...

[00:32:23] GARY: when COVID happened, right? So they, they forced every- the whole world to shut down and then they try and make it okay, uh, by giving out gobs of [00:32:30] f- I w- I hate the term free money 'cause there's no free money.

[00:32:32] It actually is- And you got, and you've sold all the supply on everything ... it was the worst cost ever. So

[00:32:34] KYLE: everything goes up in

[00:32:35] GARY: price. Yeah. And there was no supply. Um, but it wasn't even as much about that. Of course, the [00:32:40] supply couldn't keep up, but it's, it was, I would argue it's never about that. The free market will always take care of the supply.

[00:32:45] It's just when you force that much free cash

[00:32:48] KYLE: into people's hands- Well, when, when you think about vehicles for example, which are take [00:32:50] a long time to manufacture and it shut down, vehicle prices exploded during COVID because of the demand. Yeah, no,

[00:32:54] GARY: but it was about how easy it was to buy them. I, I would argue- Yeah, but also-

[00:32:56] it's way more on the s- But also '

[00:32:57] KYLE: cause there was very little inventory, right? A- and lots [00:33:00] were empty

[00:33:01] GARY: Yes, and I mean, some still, some still arguably are. And so what's happening now is that manufacturers are trying to still keep that. So now we have this [00:33:10] situation where, like, we're having a correction in prices, and of course, you know, I don't know how- Yeah

[00:33:13] your business is probably protected to some degree. But if you're in our space where you're selling equipment or other things, like now the [00:33:20] pendulum's swinging, and you still want people to have some sense of, "Hey, you gotta buy this," and, and that's basically gone. Like, now we're going back to, like, offering [00:33:30] 0% for 84 months.

[00:33:30] We're going back to all the tricks of the, the last decade where you're trying to juice people into buying something- Mm-hmm ... that they probably shouldn't buy 'cause they don't need it. And I mean, from my perspective, I guess I [00:33:40] look at it like you have this weird thing, and I look at it, I guess, from a kid's perspective more because in my life it's like, I own enough assets that- Yeah

[00:33:47] you know, if the one thing happens where we should've bought gold, [00:33:50] it's fine 'cause I own a lot of assets. Yeah. And, and there again, it's always the richest people that seem to come out of these things. It's total BS. They come out of these things the best. Um-

[00:33:59] KYLE: Middle class is, [00:34:00] is, is being crushed.

[00:34:01] GARY: Yeah, or even, I would argue even the, even the poorest people, unfortunately.

[00:34:04] KYLE: Yeah,

[00:34:04] GARY: both. Yeah. Like, you know, both. But, uh, I guess it's... Or to me, it's almost even the poorest people where it's like you have this [00:34:10] idea, or young people, like, where it's you have this idea of, "Hey, we were raised," and I don't know how y- you... I mean, I feel like you're quite a bit younger than me, but maybe you're not.

[00:34:17] But like, you know, I, I was raised in the '90s [00:34:20] where, you know, it was a tough period, but it was almost a healthy period where it's like, okay, you saved money and that money was worth something if you saved it.

[00:34:26] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:34:26] GARY: Right? And then I feel like 2001 is kind of when I [00:34:30] bought my... 2002 or '3, I think I bought my first house.

[00:34:32] It was like, hey, that was the end of it. It was just like from then on, up until 2021, '22, it was just like rates go lower, lower, [00:34:40] lower. Every time there's a f- problem in our economy, they lower the rates. And like governments in good times should be, should be tightening rates, but they haven't because it's just so much easier to lower them [00:34:50] so they can, their GDP numbers- Just wanna get elected.

[00:34:52] They just wanna get elected. And so I guess I feel like, man, we're in this weird spot now of, like, government debt. Like, governments sell their debt. Like, [00:35:00] all the money that they borrow, it's, it's called the bond market. Mm-hmm. And I mean, you could do a deep dive on it yourself, and there's all kinds of videos on it, how it works, that'll explain it way better than I ever would.

[00:35:07] But you know, those rates now are starting to [00:35:10] climb higher. And they're climbing higher because investors are starting to wonder, "Hey, can the US keep paying?" I think the US pays 3.4 billion a day just in interest. [00:35:20] Like, just in interest. Which there again, you wanna be a little careful throwing big numbers out 'cause obviously they're a big country and their economy's big.

[00:35:24] But still,

[00:35:25] KYLE: that's insane.

[00:35:25] GARY: But it's insane. That's-

[00:35:26] KYLE: You, you should actually measure debt to, to, to GDP growth, right? Like [00:35:30] that percentage.

[00:35:30] GARY: I don't like that either.

[00:35:31] KYLE: Because?

[00:35:31] GARY: I don't like that either. Because what governments do, and the Ca- Canadian government did it all through the, like, through Trudeau's time, is they use that number.

[00:35:39] And of course what [00:35:40] was happening was all that government spending was causing GDP growth.

[00:35:43] KYLE: Yeah, yeah,

[00:35:43] GARY: yeah. So it's, it's a bit of a like, "Hey, we're gonna do a bad thing. It's gonna create enough good stuff that we can justify why we're pissing money away." I mean, [00:35:50] I would look at it as, hey, o- obviously, you know, to t- turn off the tap completely is painful, but it will be more painful the further, the bigger the balloon gets, right?

[00:35:58] Yeah. And the balloon's obviously really... [00:36:00]

[00:36:00] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:36:00] GARY: And everybody counted on Mark Carney being prudent financially, and he's literally spending more money. And there again, it's not talked about. The media does not talk about it. You don't see the r- the, the big [00:36:10] news corps, you know, lambasting him. And, uh, I would say he's completely protected by Donald Trump.

[00:36:15] Like, people have such- Yes ... a hatred- That's how he got in there first in- got in in the first place. That would... Yes. Because it would be like, "Hey,

[00:36:17] KYLE: we got[00:36:20]

[00:36:22] GARY: a, you know, a w- a well, uh, you know, the opposite of the last guy we had." Yep. "He's older. He looks a little more-" And the, the

[00:36:27] KYLE: terror threats were happening at that time.

[00:36:28] GARY: Yeah. And

[00:36:28] KYLE: then, yeah.

[00:36:29] GARY: Yeah. And so this [00:36:30] guy. So I guess I just feel like, man, I, I feel really, uh... I just wonder if, like, should people still be buying gold at, what's it at, 4,000 US an ounce?

[00:36:38] Like, probably. [00:36:40] Like... Or, or not that I would argue. I would argue just own assets, right? Like, there's always part of me that thinks, "Oh, it's too, it's still crazy to buy a house now," right?

[00:36:48] KYLE: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:48] GARY: But if even the [00:36:50] conversations like you're having about, hey, the cost of things, or even in your- Yeah ... manufacturing business, like you probably feel like you always have to increase prices.

[00:36:57] Do you feel like that on your buildings, or is it very stable?

[00:36:59] KYLE: No, no, no. He's, he's actually really [00:37:00] unique in that area, and I think it's kinda cool.

[00:37:03] TRAVIS: Oh, I typically just work on, I have margins that I wanna hit, and I don't really care where everybody else is at. So [00:37:10] if I... On buildings, like especially in the female world, we're, we're fairly competitive, especially on our labor side, 'cause we're, we do a really good job pre-planning so we can save a lot of field time.[00:37:20]

[00:37:20] Um, but I just-

[00:37:22] GARY: Okay, you have a baked in margin and-

[00:37:23] TRAVIS: I, I'm not a, I'm not a, uh... I don't need to get to the last 15 bucks out of everybody. I'd rather the relat- I'd rather build [00:37:30] the relationship over 10 years that when... Okay, so we just got hit with massive steel increases, for example.

[00:37:36] GARY: Yeah.

[00:37:36] TRAVIS: Like steel's jumped 30% in the last month.

[00:37:38] GARY: And why is that? [00:37:40]

[00:37:40] TRAVIS: Uh, we have a wonderful government that restricts incoming steel. So

[00:37:44] KYLE: we-

[00:37:44] TRAVIS: So

[00:37:44] KYLE: it's a supply

[00:37:45] TRAVIS: issue. It's a supply issue. Okay. 100% supply. Um-

[00:37:49] KYLE: But you're not passing that on.

[00:37:49] TRAVIS: [00:37:50] I'm not passing it on because usually when a deposit gets paid, I buy my steel, and that's kind of the point of a deposit for me, and I'd rather work with these suppliers and [00:38:00] be like, "Hey, well, I'm gonna take this hit, but next time..."

[00:38:03] Right? Like, it's very back and forth where- Are you buying steel from a wholesaler then? You're not buying it, like... Yeah, we're [00:38:10] buying from, let's say, Baars Steel or Russell or all these- Okay ... these distribute- distributors, right?

[00:38:13] KYLE: Okay. And like we talked about yesterday, you give more than you take.

[00:38:16] TRAVIS: Yeah. So if I can help...

[00:38:18] Like, so [00:38:20] everybody hates c- like, you sell a project, right? And then you- your customer, your supplier comes back later and is like, "Actually, I made a mistake," or whatever, whatever their excuse is, I have to [00:38:30] charge more. Okay, now I gotta go to my customer.

[00:38:31] GARY: Nobody likes that.

[00:38:32] TRAVIS: Nobody likes it.

[00:38:33] GARY: Nobody likes

[00:38:34] TRAVIS: that.

[00:38:34] So if I can be the guy that can change that- So I would argue...

[00:38:36] GARY: Okay,

[00:38:36] TRAVIS: I

[00:38:36] GARY: guess

[00:38:37] TRAVIS: I would argue

[00:38:38] GARY: that my experiences in [00:38:40] business that you would have enough baked in that it's like, hey, you can handle some of that- Yes ... without going, like- That's- ... 'cause I feel like people that work too cheap are perpetually- Yeah

[00:38:46] having to nickel and dime 'cause they actually just underquoted.

[00:38:49] TRAVIS: Yeah. Yeah, [00:38:50] and so we- Is that fair? ... usually have enough margin in our things to, to eat.

[00:38:52] GARY: Eat a little bit of an

[00:38:53] TRAVIS: increase here and there. Eat enough of this. Like, so this one, for example, this big steel increase, I got caught pretty on a couple of projects.

[00:38:59] [00:39:00] Um, but it's, it's not enough to ruin relationships over.

[00:39:02] GARY: No.

[00:39:03] KYLE: It's like- But you're definitely, but you're definitely leaving money on the table compared to the competition. Yes.

[00:39:05] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:39:06] GARY: Well, you'd just be making very little all of a sudden, right? It'd go from being pretty good [00:39:10] to-

[00:39:10] TRAVIS: Yeah, exactly ... barely

[00:39:10] GARY: okay.

[00:39:11] TRAVIS: And so it's not like I had...

[00:39:12] It wasn't like it was millions of dollars, right? Like, I'm, I- Cost you ... probably cost me 10 grand, right? It's like, okay, well, I can eat that, [00:39:20] especially if it's to-

[00:39:21] GARY: Save

[00:39:21] TRAVIS: relationships ... help some of my relationships. Like, they don't wanna pass it on. Nobody wants to pass it on. So it-

[00:39:26] GARY: Nobody wants surprises.

[00:39:27] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:39:27] GARY: But what's interesting about building too, and I don't know if you [00:39:30] have it, but I hear it from barn builders and house builders all the time, is that often, like, people want stuff quoted because they want certainty, yet they wanna change their mind on how the project looks in the end. It's like, "Oh, I [00:39:40] want this, this done in my house," or, "I want this change in my barn."

[00:39:43] Yeah. Well, you just can't keep the same- Yeah ... quoted price when you're perpetually doing add-ons. Well, that's- Do you

[00:39:47] TRAVIS: have that in your space? Um, less, like, so we [00:39:50] have it a little bit, I would say, with, um, like the design build of the mills. So when we're actually on site, it's like, "Actually, I wouldn't mind if that thing actually went there as well."

[00:39:59] Yeah. And so you get a [00:40:00] little bit of changes, and depending on what the job is and how much I like the guy and, and how easy he's been to deal with, then usually we'll... Once again, there's enough in it that I don't really care. If it's something [00:40:10] massive, I'll definitely- You'll have a conversation ... usually have a conversation.

[00:40:12] Okay. But for the most part, we try to do as much as we can. We try to pre-plan everything. I- Pride is [00:40:20] the wrong word, but I try to like-

[00:40:22] KYLE: Yeah, a Dutch man cannot have pride. No. Sinful.

[00:40:24] TRAVIS: We, we really, really try to pre-plan everything- I love it ... to the point where it's thought out enough. [00:40:30] And like when you build a hay shed, what are you gonna change, right?

[00:40:32] I mean, if you're gonna change it two feet taller, yeah, okay. I mean, duh, right? But try to think about that before you sign the contract.

[00:40:39] KYLE: You guys, [00:40:40] can... I'm just gonna pause this a second 'cause I just ran out of battery[00:40:50] [00:41:00] [00:41:10] [00:41:20] [00:41:30]

[00:41:39] TRAVIS: They're going in there?

[00:41:39] KYLE: [00:41:40] Yeah.

[00:41:40] TRAVIS: Okay.

[00:41:48] KYLE: How do you usually get back into it [00:41:50] when you pause it like this? You just, just go? Oh You can get a lot and add it Right[00:42:00] [00:42:10]

[00:42:14] Let me know if we miss a bunch or we don't know. No, I've seen it.

[00:42:17] TRAVIS: Okay. Okay. Um, [00:42:20] interesting question about what you had on the show notes there. How does that affect your, like, decisions when it comes to, like, business investments and all that kind of stuff? Like, are [00:42:30] you slightly more, like, cautious in the la- like lately with hard, like, big investments or are you just still just

[00:42:37] GARY: go for it and-

[00:42:38] KYLE: Before you answer that, you wanna do that ad really quick?[00:42:40]

[00:42:41] GARY: Sure, Nitty Gritty Tiles. You know me, guys. I'm frequently wrong, but never in doubt. And one area where even I have enough self-awareness to know my limitations is [00:42:50] anything involving tools. I'm not handy. I'm handicapped. If something breaks at my house, I'll call six or seven people before I consider fixing it myself.

[00:42:58] And honestly, I think [00:43:00] I'm-- I think more men need this level of self-awareness, because there's always that moment where you look at a tile job and think, "How hard could that really be?" Very hard, apparently. You spend all Saturday watching [00:43:10] YouTube, and by 6:00 or 7:00 at night, your wife is asking why the shower looks worse than when you started.

[00:43:15] Next time, just call Nick at Nitty Gritty Tiles. Nick and his crew do phenomenal work. [00:43:20] Custom showers, heated floors, backsplashes, fireplaces. If it involves tiles, these guys knows what they're doing. Nick's also a great guy. Quiet, big beard, and he'd probably tile your entire bathroom [00:43:30] before he willingly makes small talk with you, which I actually respect.

[00:43:34] I could talk to six or seven complete strangers about something I know absolutely nothing about and somehow leave them all, [00:43:40] all of them thinking I'm an expert. Nick just shuts up and does really good work. So if you're in the Chilliwack or Abbotsford area and have a tile project, don't spend six or seven days convincing yourself you [00:43:50] can do it.

[00:43:50] Call Nick at Nitty Gritty Tiles. His number is 604-703-4148. 604-703-4148. [00:44:00] And he just did a tile job for a family member of mine, and it looked really nice.

[00:44:03] KYLE: Awesome.

[00:44:05] GARY: Um-

[00:44:06] KYLE: Okay, cautiousness. Are you more cautious in business [00:44:10] right now because of what's going on economically?

[00:44:11] GARY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I always feel like the economy-- I've, I've used this analogy before on the podcast here.

[00:44:19] It's [00:44:20] like, it's a freight train, right? And it takes, picks up slowly, and then, like, when it's, like, to stop it, it's like, hey, it's stopping. The-- everything's, there's sparks flying. There's [00:44:30] a lot of... You know there's carnage, but, like, if it's gonna hit, it takes so long. Like, everything's kinda like... And that's kinda how I f- I feel it is.

[00:44:37] Um, I think that, you know, one of the-- [00:44:40] I feel like the future always does favor the bold, and, uh, I feel like you could very much live in a state of paranoia. Most people do, actually. Mm-hmm. Most people just don't do anything 'cause they're scared, not because they didn't have [00:44:50] opportunity or there's all kinds of chances people could take, and most of the time they're just too mu- worried about the failure.

[00:44:55] Um, so I tr- I don't wanna be that way, um, but I think just running a business where [00:45:00] you look like, hey... You, you can get really caught upside down, right? And, um, that's what's interesting about your steel increases, 'cause I would look at it, like in our space, I look at almost [00:45:10] everything as a general rule as sagging.

[00:45:12] At least on the equipment side- Mm ... stuff is, like, sagging in prices, right? Where it's, like, you know, everyone would say the justification for everything is, "Oh, new [00:45:20] tractors are really expensive." Yeah. And you-- And they are, but, like, you're starting to see where 10, you know, 10 years ago you could buy a, a slightly used truck or tractor, and it was a great, great deal.

[00:45:29] TRAVIS: [00:45:30] Yep. Right?

[00:45:30] GARY: It's like, oh, that, that makes sense. That's why people bought used vehicles.

[00:45:34] TRAVIS: Mm.

[00:45:34] GARY: And we lost that entirely for, like, five years, where you were an idiot to buy a used pickup truck 'cause you're [00:45:40] basically paying the same as a brand new one. Yeah, yeah. You just couldn't get the brand new one or the prices were so close, right?

[00:45:44] Yeah. I

[00:45:44] TRAVIS: think there's still a bit of that right now, though, where, uh ... Like, I think in the used market, [00:45:50] you're either ... Like, I- we've run a lot of used equipment. Uh, we're starting to get into the new stuff just because you get to a size where it's the inconvenience of a breakdown- Yeah ... is [00:46:00] just no longer worth-

[00:46:01] GARY: Yeah.

[00:46:01] You do do different things in your stage of the business.

[00:46:03] TRAVIS: Yeah. Totally. And I think a lot of people are starting to get there, a lot of the businesses and stuff that I just notice is, like, people don't really [00:46:10] buy used. They just go buy a new one. Yeah. And they-

[00:46:13] GARY: Repairs are really expensive, too.

[00:46:14] TRAVIS: Yeah. And, and maintenance, like- Maintenance is

[00:46:15] that's just gone up like crazy. Yeah. So we can do a lot of our own maintenance, so it still makes sense to run used, [00:46:20] but if you have to pay a mechanic, a lot of times it is-

[00:46:21] GARY: So are you running telehandlers? Is that one of the things that- Yeah ... you use a lot of? Yeah. Okay. What kind of telehandlers do you run?

[00:46:26] TRAVIS: I have an older Gale and an older JCB.

[00:46:28] GARY: Okay.

[00:46:29] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:46:29] GARY: [00:46:30] Okay. How do you find the Gale? Well, it's a little egg handler.

[00:46:33] TRAVIS: Okay. It's been ... I mean, it's like a early 2000s, I think. We

[00:46:35] GARY: just picked up Gale, right? Oh, okay. So we're selling skid steers and- Yeah ... and, uh, telehandlers. I [00:46:40] mean, it's

[00:46:40] TRAVIS: r- it's a old enough one that it's, it's all mechanical, right?

[00:46:43] Okay. Like,

[00:46:43] GARY: you got one wire to the engine. No- nobody knows them here. Okay. Like, anyone that drives by and looks at them is like-

[00:46:48] TRAVIS: What's going on?

[00:46:48] GARY: What is that thing? Yeah. And [00:46:50] I mean, I have no viewpoint yet- Yeah ... which isn't ideal, so I want people to use them. So, like, free demos in the Fraser Valley, even if you're not that serious about buying at all.

[00:46:59] KYLE: Let's go eastward.

[00:46:59] GARY: We [00:47:00] have a lot... Yeah. J- Joel will bring you a track. We have tracks and wheeled skid steers. Really n- they're, they're beautiful, and they're- Yeah ... expensive. I'm assuming they're decent, but-

[00:47:08] KYLE: I wanna switch gears, uh, [00:47:10] tied to the identity thing and the paranoia that people have- Yeah ... um, uh, with a little clip from Tim Keller, uh, when you played that clip a couple weeks ago and got a lot of feedback, actually.

[00:47:17] People really enjoyed that clip.

[00:47:18] GARY: They did?

[00:47:19] KYLE: Yeah.

[00:47:19] GARY: Okay. [00:47:20]

[00:47:20] KYLE: This one isn't 20 minutes. It's five minutes. Uh, but it's on, uh, it's o- it's on identity, and it's titled You Must Lose Yourself to Find Yourself, so I'll play it.

[00:47:29] SPEAKER: What is [00:47:30] your identity? Your identity has to be rooted in something. Your identity is a sense of self and a sense of- If you're from a non-Western part of the [00:47:40] world, non-Western country, probably your identity is basically rooted in your family.

[00:47:45] Probably your family. Because in that part of the world, you are a good [00:47:50] person, you can feel good about yourself, you can know that you're okay, uh, as long as you are fulfilling your family's, uh, ob-- uh, responsibility, [00:48:00] is pleasing your family, is being a good son or daughter, a good husband or wife, a good, you know, mother or father.

[00:48:07] And as long as you are, uh, living up to your family's [00:48:10] expectations, you can feel good about yourself. Now, there's pressure there. Your family can control you. Uh, it can be pretty suffocating. It can be exploitative. But if [00:48:20] you're in the West, you don't have that kind of family-oriented identity. How do you feel good about yourself?

[00:48:26] Well, we live in an individualistic culture where you [00:48:30] decide who you wanna be, and you determine who you wanna be, and you deter-- It, it's, it, it's your will that matters. And you decide, "I wanna do this, and I wanna do that," and then you go out and you do it. [00:48:40] But of course, that's putting a lot of pressure on you, too.

[00:48:43] Enormous pressure. But don't you see? Interesting that to be [00:48:50] born again, to be born of God, is not to be born by family descent. It's not of natural descent or of human decision. I'm sure [00:49:00] that it's only an accident, perhaps, that the two things that are mentioned there are Western and non-Western identities.

[00:49:07] But don't you see what it means to be-- [00:49:10] to receive rights as children of God? You're not on the spectrum. You're off the spectrum. Your identity is received, not achieved. Your identity, [00:49:20] uh, is rooted in God's love for you, in God-- in the fact that God is now your father, not your boss, not, not just your boss, not just your king.

[00:49:28] He is, though, that, but He's [00:49:30] your father, and there's an unconditionality, as it were, in His regard for you. And that is so different than any other kind of identity. So you get a new identity, and it's [00:49:40] remarkable, and it's nothing like anything that you've ever had before. And I-- Just to get this across, one woman once told me that she'd had five identities in her life [00:49:50] And then she told me, she said, "When I was a young girl, I grew up in a very conservative church, and I felt good about myself [00:50:00] because I'm a good person, because I'm very moral, very moral.

[00:50:04] I'm one of the good people." But she said, "It turned me into something of a self-righteous Pharisee, [00:50:10] and it also put a lot of s- pressure on me. And finally, I broke out and I left the church." And then she started dating, and she started getting into romantic [00:50:20] relationships, which very often were very heady.

[00:50:23] And she went on and she said, at first she had had her-- she felt good about herself because she was so moral. Now she said, "I feel pretty good about [00:50:30] myself because somebody loves me." You know, there's a 1940s song. It's, uh, it was writ- originally written, uh, in the '40s and, and sung by Frank Sinatra then in the '50s and [00:50:40] '60s when it's called, uh, it was redone many times.

[00:50:43] "You're Nobody Till Somebody Loves You." The song says, "You could be a king and you could have all the gold in the world, [00:50:50] but if nobody loves you, you're nobody till somebody loves you." And she said that was in that, that the second phase of her life. She thought, "As long as I've got a guy who really thinks I'm great, [00:51:00] as long as I've got a man on my arm or I'm on his arm and he's on my arm, then I know I'm okay."

[00:51:06] But of course, that turned into something bad because she [00:51:10] found herself sticking in relationships that were sometimes kind of bad or even abusive too long because she felt like, "I'm nobody unless somebody loves me." And some of her girlfriends came alongside, "You need to be [00:51:20] liberated, dear. You cannot build your identity on morality, and you cannot build your identity on men.

[00:51:26] You need to get a career, and you need to be proud of the fact that [00:51:30] you are an independent career woman." And she said, so she did, and she got an education, and she went into a career. And then she realized, she said, "I got just as destroyed when [00:51:40] my career had a bump as when I broke up with a guy. You know, my heart was still not really safe at this point.

[00:51:46] You know, now I felt good about myself because I was, uh, uh, you know, [00:51:50] a successful career woman." And somebody came along and said, "Oh, honey, you know, this is what you really need, is y-you know, you're working too hard. You need to start to care for people. You need to [00:52:00] start to help people." And she got involved in all sorts of good deeds.

[00:52:03] She said she started to volunteer, and she got involved in-- with, in working with pris- women in prison and working with the [00:52:10] poor and doing all this stuff. And then she said, "I was exhausted." Until finally she said, and this is her words to me First I thought I was somebody 'cause I [00:52:20] was moral, then I thought I was somebody because I was beautiful.

[00:52:22] Then I thought I was somebody because I was successful, then I thought I was somebody because I was helpful. And then she heard the gospel message and she [00:52:30] realized, "I've been trying to save myself." These identities don't work. And she gave herself to Christ and she said, "God loves me because of [00:52:40] what Jesus has done, not what I have done."

[00:52:41] And every other identity she had tried had been based on her own performance and all the ups and downs and the whips-- the whiplashes she was [00:52:50] experienced during-- experiencing during all those efforts at a different identity. And finally, finally, she could rest. Becoming a Christian [00:53:00] is not just self-renunciation, but it's not self-realization.

[00:53:04] It's not another way to get self-esteem. It's self-transformation. You lose yourself to find yourself. [00:53:10] You don't lose yourself. You don't find yourself. You lose yourself in service to Christ. You i-- get your identity in Christ, and then you become, you realize you become who you are, who you [00:53:20] really are, who you were made to be

[00:53:24] KYLE: So I, I love that clip, especially with like the anxiety of the economy and everything that's happening. People put so much of their [00:53:30] identity and their hope in money, which will just give you more anxiety- Absolutely ... 'cause it's not something you can really trust in. And so what he says here, I just, I think is just so, so important because then when, [00:53:40] you know, the, the hard times do come, um, you can be okay and be happy and know that if Jesus takes care of the lilies of the field, how much more will he take care of you?

[00:53:48] What

[00:53:49] TRAVIS: [00:53:50] do you think, Travis? I think, uh, we, especially as our, our mentality to put all of [00:54:00] our, especially as business owners, a lot of times we put so much energy and effort and everything into, becomes like your extra child, right? That [00:54:10] even the question of, uh, you know, how much do you invest, how much do you go, it's like, well, uh, 'cause I've been struggling with that one myself lately.

[00:54:17] It's like, okay, well, do I stockpile cash? Do I, do I [00:54:20] go? But a lot of times if you let go, if it's your identity, if my identity is I'm Travis, the business owner, I'm Travis, the owner of Centric Manufacturing.

[00:54:28] GARY: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:29] TRAVIS: Okay, [00:54:30] now if something happens to Centric Manufacturing, I'm Travis blank. Like, I'm nobody, right?

[00:54:36] So a lot of times what I keep having to find myself doing is [00:54:40] reorienting my life towards I'm Travis, loved by Jesus, right? I'm Travis, a Christian. I'm not, I happen to run and own a manufacturing company. That, [00:54:50] that's part of what I do, but that's not who I am. So a lot of these decisions come down to-

[00:54:56] KYLE: How much did that switch, um, after doing Freedom Session last year?[00:55:00]

[00:55:00] Like what was that journey of, of, um, going from having identity in those things to that being significantly less? [00:55:10]

[00:55:10] TRAVIS: Oh, man. Um-

[00:55:15] Well, a lot of it just comes down to I, I don't know if it [00:55:20] was switched, like so... 'Cause we started coaching about two years ago. We did freedom sessions last year, right? So I think it's just been one big mash of me-

[00:55:25] KYLE: Yeah ...

[00:55:26] TRAVIS: trying to figure out, to detach myself [00:55:30] from, "Okay, I put all my effort here. This is who I am."

[00:55:33] 'Cause I, I would've been... I profess to be a Christian, but I wouldn't have necessarily allowed myself to [00:55:40] believe that in a way, right? You're still always wondering, and doing, and working, and, um-

[00:55:45] GARY: But why was that? When you say you wouldn't have allowed yourself to believe that, why is that? [00:55:50]

[00:55:50] TRAVIS: I didn't like myself.

[00:55:51] GARY: Okay. Right?

[00:55:53] TRAVIS: So I think what freedom cell sessions really helped me do was, um, yeah, just get [00:56:00] over a lot of the things, like the beliefs that I had, right? So coaching was the same way. Get, get... I have all these beliefs in my head about the world, who I am, where [00:56:10] I fit, and understanding that those beliefs don't, they're not always true, right?

[00:56:14] So, uh, you know, learning to believe really deeply [00:56:20] that you're loved by God, and that you're loved by Jesus, and that there's nothing that can happen to you in this world that He hasn't ordained. Like, He knows. He [00:56:30] knows these things. So why am I... Like, I'm just called to do my best, not try to have the whole world figured out.

[00:56:36] GARY: Not make it work. Not

[00:56:37] TRAVIS: make it work. Yeah.

[00:56:37] GARY: Be faithful.

[00:56:38] TRAVIS: Just be faithful with what's given [00:56:40] you, and, you know, try to make the best decision you can while you're in it, and don't beat yourself up because, well, eight years ago on Tuesday morning, you made the [00:56:50] wrong decision once. Like, no, that's, that's gone. It's paid for.

[00:56:53] Like, let's, let's just move forward and-

[00:56:55] GARY: Is

[00:56:55] TRAVIS: that- Yeah ...

[00:56:56] GARY: do you feel like with the way, and I mean, what he ta- talked about it a [00:57:00] bit, uh, Tim Keller did about the identity, but, like, is that just kinda how we're raised, where it's like, "Hey, there's," like we're in a justice culture. [00:57:10] Like, do you feel like it's because of our culture that we struggle with grace and the gospel so much?

[00:57:14] TRAVIS: Like, you talking Dutch culture or- Yeah ... Western culture?

[00:57:16] GARY: Yeah, Dutch culture. 'Cause I feel like Dutch culture is [00:57:20] actually very different than Western culture in a lot of ways.

[00:57:22] TRAVIS: Well, because so much of our value in the community is tied to your social status, let's just say. Like, [00:57:30] you know, you have either money, or stuff, or a nice house, or pretty lawns, like the, you know, the papers that- Or

[00:57:35] KYLE: family.

[00:57:35] I thought it was interesting how he said-

[00:57:36] TRAVIS: Yeah ...

[00:57:37] KYLE: in the East it was family.

[00:57:38] TRAVIS: Yeah, but he-

[00:57:38] KYLE: The identity here in the Du- [00:57:40] in the Dutch circles were actually a lot of family identity as well.

[00:57:42] TRAVIS: Yes, like your, if you have lots of kids or that kind of stuff, right? You're, you're... So you, they tie, you're so tied to [00:57:50] all of these things that a lot of times God just kinda gets forgotten.

[00:57:53] It's like, okay, well, yeah, okay, you claim to be a Christian, but you don't- Practice it ... you don't actually hold on to that [00:58:00] the way that I think we should.

[00:58:02] KYLE: We don't identify with it-

[00:58:03] TRAVIS: Yeah ...

[00:58:03] KYLE: in the ways that we did the, the other things, yeah.

[00:58:05] TRAVIS: Your identity just c- it's just bred into you that your work, especially as men, [00:58:10] right?

[00:58:10] What do you do, like the first question that ever gets asked is, "Hey, how are you?" "What do you do? What do you do?" And then, "What do you do for work?"

[00:58:16] GARY: Right? It's like, well, and we literally are- Or what's your

[00:58:19] KYLE: last

[00:58:19] GARY: name? Or

[00:58:19] KYLE: do you know, like Dutch

[00:58:19] GARY: [00:58:20] bingo, I talked about it. Yeah ... yeah, and Dutch bingo. We're literally gonna base somebody, like whatever comes out of their mouth next- Yeah

[00:58:24] is gonna frame our reference for how we view this person. Yeah, I get that. Which I'm guilty of that too. I'm, I'm a janitor. Bizarre. [00:58:30]

[00:58:31] TRAVIS: So I, I think, yeah, like our, our identity, I think human nature, I, I... 'Cause we're not alone in that, right? Yeah. We- I mean, human nature is to fill it [00:58:40] with ourselves, and

[00:58:41] GARY: the heart is literally an idol factory.

[00:58:44] Yeah. And that goes for anyone, and that goes for people that are believers as well.

[00:58:47] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[00:58:47] GARY: Like, and I think that that's been a struggle of mine where [00:58:50] often it's like, man, it makes me really doubt and question things, right? Where I'm just like, "How can I be this? This, this is embarrassing," because- And

[00:58:55] KYLE: Satan will use anything.

[00:58:56] It's not like, like he'll use your ministry to become your idol [00:59:00] or-

[00:59:00] GARY: Yes ...

[00:59:00] KYLE: you know, lots of good things- Yeah ... can become your idol.

[00:59:02] GARY: That's been my experience. Your kids or- My experience is, man, you... And then you, like the lady talked about becoming self-righteous, right? Now you're looking down on others that are not [00:59:10] volunteering as much or not pulling their weight in the church, and it's embar- Like, no, like we're all on our own journey, and everybody needs to be convicted of their own sin.

[00:59:17] Yeah. What was your experience, um, [00:59:20] Kyle alluded that you were, had done Freedom Session. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's in Southern Alberta. W- what was your experience going in, and what was your experience going through it like? [00:59:30]

[00:59:31] TRAVIS: Um, I didn't really know what to expect, I think would be one thing. Um, so I didn't really have any notions.

[00:59:39] I knew [00:59:40] that I needed to figure out more about how, how does my... Why do I make the decisions that I make? Why? Why do I do these things that [00:59:50] are so destructive to everything that you want? Like, you have this over here, and then you have this over here. And I think our als- I don't think it's just our Dutch culture.

[00:59:59] All [01:00:00] cultures, we love to put on a mask, right? We pretend to be this person. Yeah. But when you, you don't even dare look in the mirror because it's like, well, I know, you know who [01:00:10] you are, right? Mm-hmm. And so you're putting on this... Once again, you have this identity everybody sees, and then the identity that you know who you are.

[01:00:18] And that dis- that [01:00:20] gap is, you can just spend an enormous amount of energy trying to figure out that gap because you f- you feel like a fraud. Like you s- you know, um-

[01:00:29] GARY: You felt like a [01:00:30] fraud before you did a Freedom Session?

[01:00:31] TRAVIS: Yes. Okay. Sure. You, like, um, even that, uh, paper that you mentioned last week, um-

[01:00:36] KYLE: The AI report?

[01:00:37] TRAVIS: Yeah, the AI report. Depending on which week it

[01:00:39] GARY: is, I [01:00:40] guess. I cannot believe that. I cannot believe that we're referring to an AI report.

[01:00:43] TRAVIS: Well, it's just

[01:00:44] KYLE: wild to me- The amount of messages I've got about that, how, like point, how on point it is- Okay. Okay ... is wild. Sorry.

[01:00:49] TRAVIS: Sorry, I lost my train [01:00:50] of thought here.

[01:00:50] Um-

[01:00:50] KYLE: Sorry. The,

[01:00:52] TRAVIS: uh... I forgot

[01:00:55] KYLE: now. Sorry. No, you're okay. That you said that the, um, about the AI report last week, that [01:01:00] you, you read something that stuck out to you on, uh- I know,

[01:01:01] TRAVIS: but I forgot what I said

[01:01:02] KYLE: before ... identity

[01:01:05] TRAVIS: I talked

[01:01:05] KYLE: about the

[01:01:05] TRAVIS: gap, right? Oh, yeah, the gap being, um, being there. So, Freedom Sessions for [01:01:10] me, I think really helped me understand who God is.

[01:01:14] I might be too far away. Um, and how little what we [01:01:20] do affects God's love for us. So, a lot of times, here's me, sin. Okay, God's sitting there going, "Ugh, again? [01:01:30] Really?" Like, "Who is this guy?" Right? And, and-

[01:01:34] GARY: Do better.

[01:01:34] TRAVIS: Crush him. Do better.

[01:01:35] GARY: Crush him. Yeah. Yeah. Crush him. So- Then we crush ourselves. [01:01:40] Yeah.

[01:01:40] TRAVIS: Yeah. For me, I think one of the biggest things was understanding that, um- My, like my past sin and [01:01:50] the shame you feel for that doesn't define who you are or God's love for you.

[01:01:56] GARY: Freedom Session is very interesting. We're s- firing up very soon. Mm-hmm. Like, you guys [01:02:00] are- Absolutely ... there's gonna be one in Southern Alberta. It sounds like there'll be more details very soon. If, if there- I mean, I almost don't wanna give it a plug 'cause I'm worried too many people are gonna show up, but-

[01:02:07] KYLE: If there is- So-

[01:02:08] if it is, by the time this comes out, [01:02:10] uh, if the, um, if the link to sign up in Southern Alberta is live, I will link that in the, in the show notes.

[01:02:15] GARY: Yeah.

[01:02:15] KYLE: So.

[01:02:15] GARY: And we could put the Chilliwack one in here, too.

[01:02:17] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:02:18] GARY: But, um, where I was gonna go [01:02:20] with that is, uh, and people always... I think we talk about it too much, 'cause I just feel like- I, I don't think you do

[01:02:24] I've had- you don't think I do. Okay. I've had people say to me... Well, I've had people in my family that don't wanna do it 'cause I [01:02:30] talk too much about it, right? But, um, it, it's basically, like, Freedom Sessions is interesting in that way, where it's, like... And, and actually it's very connected. I'll just read the quote, 'cause Tim Keller said this quote.

[01:02:39] [01:02:40] I've quoted it here before. He said, "The Gospel is this: We are more sinful and flawed in ourselves than we ever dared to believe, yet at the very same time we are more loved and accepted in Jesus [01:02:50] Christ than we ever dared hope." Mm-hmm. Right? And I don't think our, our human brains can't compute that, right?

[01:02:56] Yeah. You know, we can understand a bit of unconditional love in the sense that, hey, most of- those of us that [01:03:00] have children anyways. But even that. Yeah. It's like, my kids probably don't think love is con- you know, it's like, "Man, you didn't do a good enough job," or, you know. I mean, I'm being- my son will come on the podcast- Yeah

[01:03:09] sometimes and share [01:03:10] how bad of a father I am. But it's just like, hey, we don't- we'll never compute that, right? Because we're not- Yeah ... you know, we're not the Lord, right? I mean- And so... Sorry, go ahead.

[01:03:17] KYLE: Well, I'll let you finish your thought.

[01:03:19] GARY: Well, so Freedom [01:03:20] Session is basically, it's that. It's helping people understand the Gospel.

[01:03:24] Um, but alongside all of that comes things that we also don't do. We don't clean up the wreckage of our [01:03:30] past. We shove stuff under the rug. We ignore. We hide. We pretend it didn't happen, and that doesn't work either. Yeah. Because deep in the innermost recesses of our mind and heart, [01:03:40] maybe not even our mind.

[01:03:41] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[01:03:41] GARY: Like, may- literally, like, I mean, I've been doing this now for 10 years with, you know, 70 people every year. It's hundreds of people. It's like, hey, there's people that literally, up until they're 45, 50, [01:03:50] 60 years old, and people know that, so subconsciously, and that's why I'd be curious to know- Mm ... why you signed up.

[01:03:55] Subconsciously, people know that. They don't even know what's, what's [01:04:00] coming, but they can just feel that it's gonna touch some part of their life they don't wanna deal with. Yeah. And so they resist. They resist. And what I've had, and it's happened again this year, 'cause I've seen some, you know, people are signing up now.

[01:04:09] It's [01:04:10] like, "Dude, you should've been there five years ago, man." Yeah. "I asked you fi-," like, but that's just human nature. Yeah. And we're all like that. And I would argue the other part of it, of the Freedom Session, [01:04:20] is you don't need to have the trauma or the- Yeah ... you could literally just be an average-

[01:04:24] KYLE: Yeah

[01:04:24] GARY: non-churchgoer, like, just random person, and I've done it with non-Christian guys, where it's like they [01:04:30] sign up, they're l- they, they experience a brotherly love which they've never had in their life, which people desperately need. They long to be in community. Like, of course, we're as more connected than we've ever been, but nobody's actually [01:04:40] connected.

[01:04:40] Mm. People are very lonely. It's like you come here and you ha- like, when you are fully known, I don't know how your- Yeah ... group was, but I got a rough idea. Oh, yeah. When you are fully known by guys- They live their life [01:04:50] around you every day in your community, and you can be fully honest, and everyone still has a great...

[01:04:54] Like, the amount of friendship and deep trust that comes from that-

[01:04:57] KYLE: It's beautiful ...

[01:04:57] GARY: it's beautiful. It's my favorite. Anyway, [01:05:00] sorry, Kyle.

[01:05:01] KYLE: Well, I mean, it, it, uh, ties into what the purpose of the law, which makes us feel guilty and shitty. Like, what, what is that? Is it just so we know, like, we're un- unworthy or...[01:05:10]

[01:05:10] And, and it ties into, um, Romans 3, and I read Romans 3 a bunch of other times in, on here about how, you know, no one is righteous, no one's seeking God. But the last part of that I think is actually more [01:05:20] impactful, starting at verse 19. I'll read it. "Obviously the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses and to show that the [01:05:30] entire world is guilty before God.

[01:05:31] And no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands, because the law simply shows us how sinful we are. But now God has shown us a way to be made [01:05:40] right with him without keeping the requirements of the law." All you that's reformed people. "As we promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago, we are made right with God by placing our [01:05:50] faith in Jesus Christ.

[01:05:51] And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are, for everyone has sinned, and f- we all fall short of God's glorious standard. Yet [01:06:00] God in his grace freely makes us right in his sight, and he does through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty of our sins. For God presented Jesus as sacrifice for, as a sacrifice for sin.

[01:06:09] [01:06:10] People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God made... was being fair when he held back and did not punish [01:06:20] those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time.

[01:06:25] God had not did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he [01:06:30] himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Can we boast then that, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our [01:06:40] acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.

[01:06:43] So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law." And then it talks [01:06:50] a little bit about Jesus in John Hales. But I think that's- Well- ... that's basically what Freedom Session gets you to, is admitting the sin- Mm-hmm ... and seeing that the purpose is not for you [01:07:00] to stay there, but that it's to drive you to Jesus.

[01:07:02] TRAVIS: I think one of the most impactful nights that I had on Freedom Sessions was the, I think it was, what, in week 13 or something, where [01:07:10] the, the exercise walks you through, like, God's mind in creating us, right? That He knew before anything was ever created that, "I'm [01:07:20] going to make this guy. He's gonna live here.

[01:07:22] He's gonna do this. He's going to do all this stuff." I- it... You're not surprising God with your sin. Mm. He knows. And yet we [01:07:30] still act like we have to h- like, like we- We're still

[01:07:33] KYLE: trying to hide

[01:07:33] TRAVIS: what we're doing ... like we're still trying to hide what we're doing. Yeah. It's still- And we still feel so... Like, obviously you have to feel bad for your sin.

[01:07:37] I understand that. But you don't have to [01:07:40] let it define you.

[01:07:40] KYLE: Yeah. And

[01:07:41] TRAVIS: I think that comes- God still loves you 'cause He, He knows. He-

[01:07:44] KYLE: And it comes with growing up. If you're cultivated in a, in a family home or in a community where [01:07:50] you can't be open with your sin- Mm ... with your dad because you're gonna get whacked, or is there safety created at home where you can be open about it.

[01:07:56] And that, our relationship with our own dads- Mm-hmm ... and, [01:08:00] and that's how we learn our first example of who God the Father is. Mm-hmm. And most people in this world wouldn't grow up... Well, every dad fails. We all, like- Yeah ... a- a- and so w- [01:08:10] there's this alignment that needs to happen of, you know, that the true Father is not like that, and we don't need to hide.

[01:08:16] GARY: I guess the flip side of that is, and there again, we've grown up on [01:08:20] one end of the spectrum. Mm-hmm. So we have a very, you know, pointed kind of response to that, which is what you're alluding to- Mm-hmm ... and you are alluding to. And then I think there's probably, like, there's an entire [01:08:30] culture where sin's not taken seriously.

[01:08:31] KYLE: Yeah.

[01:08:32] GARY: Um, and people don't realize God's holiness, right, unless you- But are they

[01:08:35] KYLE: confessing it? Are they being open about it? Like, they're not doing the same-

[01:08:37] GARY: No, they're not. I mean, that's what I mean. So I think [01:08:40] we, a, a lot of our teaching that we've been brought up with or even that I would probably, you know, veer towards, comes from a, a place of fear of the side of, hey, like, realize [01:08:50] that you deal...

[01:08:50] You know. And that, that's what Freedom Session does- Mm-hmm ... really well. Like, one of the things Ken says in one of the videos is, "God hates sin, and He hates it all the time." Yeah. Right? And so I think his [01:09:00] teaching, and there again, I mean, you're- Is very well-balanced ... you are... Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would put yourself in Doctor Forum camp.

[01:09:05] Mm-hmm. And you would say, "This guy is not Doctor Forum," but you would not disagree with his teaching.

[01:09:09] TRAVIS: Oh, no. I-

[01:09:09] GARY: [01:09:10] No. You know what I mean? And so that's what's been unique for me, too, where if you could just... We never do- Mm ... because we've become so tribal, and our teaching, we're so paranoid of false teaching that anything that's not [01:09:20] our teaching is wrong.

[01:09:21] Mm-hmm. Like, literally, they're people listening- Or sounds like it. Or sounds like it, 'cause we're uncomfortable with it. 'Cause even, but, uh, yeah. '

[01:09:24] KYLE: Cause

[01:09:24] GARY: we're uncomfortable with it. 'Cause

[01:09:25] KYLE: if, if Dutch, if Ken talked slower with a Dutch accent, it would be a lot more acceptable. [01:09:30]

[01:09:30] GARY: No, I just think even the way he words things is counter to what we're- Yeah

[01:09:33] but we, we are so indoctrinated with how the word needs to be given. So like even when you read that, those verses there, that long stretch, [01:09:40] like everybody would agree with everything you read. They would agree with all of it. But where the problem would come is how it practically plays out. People would say, "How can I bel- like, I can't believe myself.

[01:09:49] [01:09:50] I can't-" Sure. You know? And there again, quote-unquote, "You're not wrong." Yeah. But like, "Man, help me with my unbelief," right? And just like I, I think that people [01:10:00] overcomplicate, like-

[01:10:00] KYLE: And define what believing is.

[01:10:02] GARY: Yeah.

[01:10:02] KYLE: Like, believing is not some, like, thing that just happens. Yeah. It's like, it's based on evidence.

[01:10:07] TRAVIS: I just found the whole freedom session [01:10:10] spectrum, like, it, it's so well-rounded to not just, uh, a particular problem with a particular... Like, it's just men and their problems, not just women. Like we have, [01:10:20] you re- if you have any reason that you're uncomfortable in your own skin, take freedom sessions. It'll help you figure it out.

[01:10:27] Like-

[01:10:27] KYLE: At least to a degree.

[01:10:28] TRAVIS: It, it w- like, the [01:10:30] thing is you have to be committed and, and see it through because if you're just going there for a Tuesday evening coffee- Uh, you won't coast. You won't coast.

[01:10:35] GARY: You won't coast. Well, you'll quit. You're either gonna quit or you- Right? You

[01:10:38] TRAVIS: won't coast. It's too much effort.

[01:10:39] It's too

[01:10:39] GARY: much effort to coast. Uh, [01:10:40] barely. Barely, Kyle.

[01:10:41] TRAVIS: Barely.

[01:10:41] KYLE: Every group I've had, we've had coasters.

[01:10:42] TRAVIS: Uh, you're looking in the mirror too much.

[01:10:46] KYLE: That was pretty good.

[01:10:47] TRAVIS: So.

[01:10:47] KYLE: Okay. What a chop. [01:10:50]

[01:10:50] TRAVIS: So- What a chop. Uh, I, I found they did a really good job, like, yeah, walking you through. Like, it's weird for, you know, the strengths inventory thing is [01:11:00] so hard for us-

[01:11:01] KYLE: Oh, yeah.

[01:11:01] TRAVIS: Uh- That's

[01:11:02] KYLE: funny ... for

[01:11:02] TRAVIS: people to do

[01:11:03] KYLE: too. We were laughing about it yesterday. Strengths inventory, can't do it. Give me a list of my sins. Yeah. Let's go.

[01:11:08] TRAVIS: Yeah. Write

[01:11:08] GARY: down all the areas- It's actually- ... [01:11:10] Travis has failed in his life, and there is a laundry

[01:11:11] KYLE: list. That's, that's easy. Yeah. But strengths is hard. You, did you have that too?

[01:11:14] What are your

[01:11:14] GARY: strengths?

[01:11:14] KYLE: Did you have that too? No. Strengths.

[01:11:17] GARY: No, no. I had no problem writing down my strengths.

[01:11:19] KYLE: I [01:11:20]

[01:11:21] TRAVIS: haven't finished my strengths inventory

[01:11:22] GARY: yet, so I'm not sharing. No, what's your strengths and what's- What's some of your strengths, Travis?

[01:11:27] TRAVIS: Oh, man. I can... I know how to talk. [01:11:30] That's... I can... Decent at sales.

[01:11:33] Apparently, Kyle said I could hit a golf ball yesterday, and I said, no, I couldn't, and-

[01:11:37] GARY: Oh, man, this is embarrassing. You definitely need to do freedom [01:11:40] session again, man.

[01:11:40] TRAVIS: I do. I know that. What are your strengths, Gary?

[01:11:43] GARY: Uh, I really care for people.

[01:11:45] TRAVIS: Hmm.

[01:11:46] GARY: I really care for people. I'm a very caring person. Um, [01:11:50] people tell me that I'm generous.

[01:11:51] I mean, I- it's a personal journey of wrestling because I still feel like I can be really cheap with, with people and really embarrassingly so at times, and weird. Um, I [01:12:00] can literally talk to anybody about anything. I c- I'm pretty vulnerable. I think it's a huge strength. I think that the world needs more vulnerable men.

[01:12:07] KYLE: So when

[01:12:07] GARY: you were young- I think you're vulnerable, Travis. I think you could have said that. [01:12:10] When you can come onto a podcast when you know nobody- Yeah ... you don't know who's gonna listen, all your weird family from Alberta, whoever they are- ... and they're gonna hear you talk about... No. Like, it's like- Yeah

[01:12:18] that's a, that's a beautiful [01:12:20] thing. Yeah. Every- I tell everybody that's struggling, I met with somebody yesterday, I said, "Look around this restaurant. Every person here to su- to varying degrees is broken and dying inside." Why? [01:12:30] Because they're sinful human beings. Yeah. Yes. So, like, there again, in church, we understand all the theory, all the doctrine.

[01:12:35] We don't actually even know how it practically plays out. So a pastor, they can't do freedom session, [01:12:40] right? An elder can't do freedom session. Why? Because he's an elder. He's supposed to be the leader. He's s- Yeah. No. Like, he's on a healthier trend. He's hopefully living beyond reproach. He should actually be the most easy to [01:12:50] do freedom session because none of his sins should be a secret.

[01:12:52] Yeah. Because he's an elder, he should be a leader. But we've literally got everything backwards where all the people that are in charge can't, can't be [01:13:00] vulnerable and transparent for sake of ruining their reputation.

[01:13:02] KYLE: Whatever you just said there, I'm gonna clip and, like, spend all my money on, like, promoting on social media.

[01:13:06] No,

[01:13:06] GARY: but it's just like- People can see that. It's this idea of- It's so true. It's so true. It's just this idea of like, [01:13:10] hey, and yet somehow when we're the parent, we have to protect our reputation. Yeah. When we're the leader at school, the teacher, no. Like- There's a- The gospel is this, exactly what I said. The repu-

[01:13:18] KYLE: yeah, the reputation you [01:13:20] wanna give is that-

[01:13:21] GARY: That you desperately need Jesus, right?

[01:13:23] There's a, a, an unbelievable-

[01:13:24] TRAVIS: And so I still- ... amount of hurt behind protecting re- uh, people's reputations.

[01:13:27] KYLE: And that's the

[01:13:28] GARY: whole thing. Yeah. And, and it goes into a church- Yeah ... and [01:13:30] then it's like you have this place that is literally supposed to be the beacon of hope, a comfort, a safe community, and most of the time it's the opposite because people are living- Because

[01:13:38] KYLE: everybody's

[01:13:38] GARY: perfect

[01:13:39] because people are [01:13:40] perfect and they're living in deceitfulness.

[01:13:41] KYLE: It's a museum for good people.

[01:13:42] GARY: Yeah. Anyways. So-

[01:13:44] KYLE: Our awareness ...

[01:13:44] GARY: you are vulnerable, Travis. I appreciate it, and I mean, I've, I've only met you twice now, but I, I think [01:13:50] that's... It- I would argue that that's my greatest gift.

[01:13:52] TRAVIS: Hmm.

[01:13:53] GARY: Because people, there again, will look at your exterior, they'll look at what you do, they'll look at what Kyle does or they'll look at me, and they'll be like, "Well, all kind of [01:14:00] seem to have it together."

[01:14:01] And when I was a fraud in my fraud years or my- Mm-hmm ... real unhealthy years, I would look in the mirror and know that I was just hooched. And I was so upset because, like, oh- [01:14:10] Man, you got money, you got a job, you got this, you, you're doing... You should be fine, man. Yeah. What's wrong with you? Yeah. Right? And I was not fine.

[01:14:16] And I think that people... And it's interesting that you talked [01:14:20] about looking in the mirror, 'cause I mean, look in the mirror and look in those eyes and be like, "Hey, do I, do I-

[01:14:24] TRAVIS: Do I like the person

[01:14:25] GARY: I see? Do I like the person I see? Yeah. And most people would be like, "No." They can't do a strengths inventory.

[01:14:29] Yeah. Yeah. You can't [01:14:30] literally write down five things that... And it's not strengths. It's like, "Hey, what are the gifts- Gifts ... that God's given you?" Gifted. Yeah. People, if you wanna hyper-spiritualize it, which of course we have to do, but it's like, you know, where, where has [01:14:40] God put you? If you don't know what your strengths are, how are you- Yeah

[01:14:43] how are you using the Go- gifts God gave you? How are you making decisions in your life if you don't realize what areas that He's [01:14:50] gifted you? Yeah. The Bible talks exactly about it.

[01:14:51] KYLE: But sometimes people have been so stomped on that they literally can't think of it, and they need... It takes time to get someone to that spot, to see their giftings and see who they [01:15:00] are.

[01:15:00] Oh, it's a journey. Like the freedom, Journey of Freedom session. Like, I remember first years- Yeah ... I couldn't write down any strengths at all. Like, that, I, I ha- I hated it. Like, uh, I wanted nothing to do with that. Um, just tell me how shitty I [01:15:10] am.

[01:15:10] GARY: And there again, it would come... We, those things, if you'd ask somebody who has never done it or can't sing somebody's praises, like, people need more encouragement, right?

[01:15:18] But we're, there again, it's, uh, definitely [01:15:20] grown up in a culture of, hey, you wouldn't, you wouldn't go to somebody and say, "Man, that's just amazing what you did. That's awesome," right? Because that would make them proud, and pride is a sin.

[01:15:27] TRAVIS: Yeah.

[01:15:27] GARY: But instead we have false- There's a- Instead we have false [01:15:30] humility, which is even worse.

[01:15:31] TRAVIS: Like, the, even, like, you go up to some of your shop guys, like, "Hey," like, looking them in the eyes and saying, "Man, you did a good job today," that is so hard. They are, but they are

[01:15:38] KYLE: pumped up. Yeah, but they, [01:15:40]

[01:15:40] TRAVIS: like- Was that hard for you to do?

[01:15:40] GARY: Yeah. It's weird.

[01:15:41] TRAVIS: Like, it's just- Like, why do I s- How do they feel, how do they feel when you do that?

[01:15:46] Oh, I'm sure they feel amazing. And that's why I'm trying to force myself to do it, right? I [01:15:50] love this. But it's, it's so hard. It just- And your

[01:15:52] KYLE: kids, too. Like- Yeah ... a lot of parents treat their kids that way.

[01:15:54] TRAVIS: I have no problem with my kids. It's, it's more- Okay ... like, peers and people around me that I have a hard time- [01:16:00] Okay

[01:16:00] like, just saying, "Hey, I really appreciate what you do." For my- It's just-

[01:16:04] KYLE: Yeah ...

[01:16:05] TRAVIS: not in, it's not what I grew up seeing.

[01:16:08] KYLE: The forgiveness side of, in, in Freedom [01:16:10] Session is also so big. Even just doing the spontaneous inventory this week a couple times and just the steps of forgiving yourself for the ways you failed or how people have hurt you, and [01:16:20] the amount of I don't know what you even call it.

[01:16:23] Something that releases in you-

[01:16:25] TRAVIS: Mm-hmm ...

[01:16:25] KYLE: to, when, when you surrender that to God is, is wild. Like, it's, it's, it's [01:16:30] something else and a, a gift.

[01:16:31] TRAVIS: I, I... Forgiving yourself, I think, is something that's very not, like, it's very underrated, that, like, if [01:16:40] God has forgiven you, why are you still holding it against yourself, right?

[01:16:42] That's something that I really have to learn. I'm still learning. Because we're

[01:16:45] GARY: practicing Catholics, right? We're literally paying penance. Is that a fair

[01:16:48] TRAVIS: comment or not? It is a fair- Okay.

[01:16:49] KYLE: [01:16:50] Well, I've also had people, people say like, "Oh, only God can forget the, um, forgive you, so w- we can't forgive ourselves.

[01:16:55] Only God forgives." Well, that's specifically sin. Like, God, only God can forgive sin, but we can [01:17:00] forgive other peoples of debt they're owed us, we can forgive other people of the things they, they've hurt us- Mm ... and we can forgive ourselves of the ways that we've, you know-

[01:17:06] TRAVIS: We've hurt ourselves- ... hurt us ... and hurt others, right?

[01:17:08] I mean, especially if you have [01:17:10] done the work and the forgiveness of them and made amends and all this kind of stuff. Like, it, you obviously don't just, "Okay, now I'm gonna go hurt that person. Ah, God forgives me, so I'm fine." [01:17:20] No. That's not, that's not the journey either.

[01:17:23] KYLE: No, I think, yeah, I agree.

[01:17:24] TRAVIS: But I think if, if you've done everything you can to make things right, [01:17:30] and you are a believer, and you know God has forgiven you, our tendency to just hold onto that and, uh, just make that part of who you are, that I [01:17:40] am this failure, um-

[01:17:42] KYLE: Yeah,

[01:17:42] GARY: that's a- It's

[01:17:43] KYLE: hard

[01:17:43] that's a big one, too.

[01:17:43] GARY: Question for you. Uh, w- we probably feel like we need to wrap up, eh, Kyle? This is the longest podcast we've done in a very long time. Very long. It's [01:17:50] getting, getting very antsy. Um, what would you say to someone that struggles whether they're a believer or whether they can be a believer?

[01:17:57] What's your, what would be your words to someone [01:18:00] that... Do you know people like that?

[01:18:02] TRAVIS: Less of them, 'cause we've, uh-

[01:18:05] GARY: Okay. But what would you say to somebody like that, where people are just struggle with assurance, or [01:18:10] struggle whether they can be saved, or struggle whether they can know God's love?

[01:18:14] TRAVIS: It's a hard one.

[01:18:14] I, I mean, you just... When it comes down to it, it's, it's faith is believing [01:18:20] something you can't see, right? So what, what we tend to like to do is we like to say, "Okay, well, you know, you look under the mat. Is there faith there? Is there faith here? Do I have faith? Do I have [01:18:30] faith?" And a lot of times, like, faith is the thing.

[01:18:32] Like, having the faith is the belief, right? And we keep looking for all these things to, to cement, "Yes,

[01:18:39] KYLE: I-" [01:18:40] Evid- evidences in our own life- Yes ... that there is faith, rather than having faith in Christ himself, which is based on evidence not in our own life, but on, based on what he did. So

[01:18:47] TRAVIS: for somebody that's struggling, it's just [01:18:50] stop.

[01:18:51] Stop trying to look to yourself for evidences of things, 'cause it, it, it, it's important to do soul-seeking and [01:19:00] understand that, you know, even Peter says it, right? Um, next year calling an election, sure, but-

[01:19:05] GARY: The comfort's not gonna come from our own

[01:19:08] TRAVIS: actions. It is

[01:19:09] KYLE: not. No, I- I love what [01:19:10] Matt Keane told me to do last, couple summers ago, um, which was read the Gospel of John, which I think is the clearest articulation of Jesus being the Christ, the true God.

[01:19:19] One [01:19:20] chapter a day, read it five times. Day two, read chapter two five times. Day three, chapter three five times. So all 22 chapters of the Gospel of John, and then I did that three times over, and that's all I read. And [01:19:30] I just, um, I re- read it in a translation I found, um, uh, easy to understand, and I just prayed over it.

[01:19:36] And he encouraged me to pray, "Who is Jesus Christ for [01:19:40] me?" before I read it. Just like, just pray that to God. Say, "J- Jesus, show me who you are, um, for me." And then I just read it over and over. And then slowly you start seeing the actual arguments [01:19:50] like, uh, a lawyer would in a, in a, in a court that John is trying to make, that who Jesus actually is, and he's giving evidences and evidences and evidences.

[01:19:57] And that's, I think, how our belief in, our [01:20:00] faith in Christ comes from where. It's like, it's through the Word of God. It's not through our life, and that's what I would, I would really encourage people to do that.

[01:20:07] TRAVIS: I think understanding who God [01:20:10] is and who Jesus is and what- Especially in our, our, our culture is very hard to wrap your head around, that [01:20:20] we work in such a back and forth where, you know, you're wor- you're-

[01:20:24] KYLE: But so little time is spent reading the Bible

[01:20:25] everything is

[01:20:25] TRAVIS: transactional in our life, right? And so understanding that [01:20:30] God is not that is so hard to get over, that a lot of times, yeah, you're looking for ways that you can still, you're still looking for ways that you can [01:20:40] add, and if, you have to let go of that.

[01:20:42] GARY: That's awesome. You- That's a great word.

[01:20:43] Okay. Okay. Yeah. People, um, do you feel like people [01:20:50] feel like they need to have some really large spiritual experience?

[01:20:55] TRAVIS: A lot of times that's what they're looking for is evidence of it. They, they- Yeah. [01:21:00]

[01:21:00] KYLE: How much would you have said growing up, um, or even your teenage years or your, like in adult years, you would've spent time reading the Bible, like for yourself and actually trying to understand it, not just like a verse at [01:21:10] suppertime or whatever, but like actually trying to-

[01:21:12] TRAVIS: I w- I, I would say my parents did a good job try, um, like trying to build that up in me, but I mean, I still [01:21:20] struggle with it now, right?

[01:21:21] Like i- it's just, it's not a practice that I've,

[01:21:24] KYLE: um- 'Cause what, what I think is frustrating is that a lot, uh, you run into people that are, are struggling with faith or if Jesus actually- Mm ... loves [01:21:30] them or things like that, but they'll spend so little time in actually trying to- I, I don't know- ... find the evidences for it

[01:21:36] TRAVIS: I don't think that that would be the case necessarily as much as not believing [01:21:40] what they're reading. Like, so-

[01:21:42] KYLE: If they're reading it ...

[01:21:43] TRAVIS: it, like I'd say a lot of people- No, I, I would, I would agree with you. I would agree with you ... are really actually seeking and searching and looking and wanting. They want to be [01:21:50] saved.

[01:21:50] They do. They just, they can't read the Bible and take what it says- Literally ... and say that's what- Literally ... like, God is writing this on your heart. [01:22:00] Just if-

[01:22:00] KYLE: I, I, I, I struggle with that because I think what I, my experience was there's very little reading of God's word. If they do read it, they read it in King James Version, so they barely understand it, [01:22:10] and they read it one time rather than meditating on it.

[01:22:12] No,

[01:22:12] TRAVIS: I, I agree with you, Travis. You, you'd be differentiating I think- I totally agree with you ... between people that are seeking, though, and people that are just attending church. People that are just attending church, yeah, they read it at [01:22:20] suppertime. If they're lucky, they'll read a couple verses before they go to bed, and that's it.

[01:22:22] GARY: I agree with you. People are adding on. They're adding on, and they're adding on in their own mind, and a lot of the teaching that we've had is adding on. So when [01:22:30] they, when people would read a verse, right? And there again- Mm ... you have to take the Bible to an entirety. So I mean, I d- I say this even hesitantly in the sense of like, obviously, you know, make sure you're calling election.

[01:22:39] Yeah. [01:22:40] Sure. You know, that'd be at the other side of the coin, but it's like, okay, when someone would read who's struggling, you know, understanding if they're a believer, and they would read, "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved," they are [01:22:50] not taking that literally. No. They're adding to it.

[01:22:52] They're, they're confusing it. Say, they, they

[01:22:53] TRAVIS: add if it comes from...

[01:22:55] GARY: Yeah, or whatever. Like they would- Yeah ... you know, and I think, man, you gotta be careful, and [01:23:00] that's where like I think a, a lot of our hangups all come from within. Right. They all come from our own human nature, and- They want a roadmap ... we have been, we have been taught...

[01:23:09] Yeah, they want a roadmap. We have [01:23:10] been taught to be so fearful of deceiving ourselves 'cause the heart is deceitful above all things, Jeremiah- Mm-hmm ... it says, or whatever, in the sequel. Yeah, it is. But like God's promises are sure. So [01:23:20] that's the one thing we can hang onto, and I think- The Bible ... that we need...

[01:23:23] Yeah, we could put a lot more emphasis on what Bible's telling us, and that's where I agree with you, Kyle. Read the word, highlight it, write it, [01:23:30] rewrite it, and put those... and, and trust in those things. And people, and that's what you see with Freedom Session, God calls us to take steps. He calls us to do [01:23:40] things, and often in my life- The faith, the assurance, and all those things have come way later.

[01:23:46] Way later. Mm-hmm. And that's, there again, that's counter to what... There again, we're trying to [01:23:50] figure it out. Yeah. And boy, my own figuring out has got me in some horrible spots in my life, right? And I think that's where it's like, "Hey." It was just interesting to hear your perspective, 'cause you're probably a little more [01:24:00] closer, I guess, to that teaching and the, the type of thought, and I think that you probably-

[01:24:03] TRAVIS: I would say ever since Freedom Sessions, I don't think that there's been, I'd say, a time that I can [01:24:10] remember that I would have struggled with, like assurance.

[01:24:13] KYLE: Before

[01:24:14] TRAVIS: you did? And I would have before. Yes.

[01:24:15] GARY: Because you felt like a fraud?

[01:24:17] KYLE: 100%. I'm la- I'm laughing because that, [01:24:20] that sentence, I know there's a, a, a group of people that that sentence in itself would push people away from going. 'Cause the last thing you would want is- Is to have [01:24:30] assurance ... is to have assurance and not doubt anymore, 'cause that's a terrible sign that you're definitely not saved.

[01:24:35] TRAVIS: That's just a sign, like, just the Bible

[01:24:37] GARY: was written to me. That's just not true. That's just not true. [01:24:40] Yeah. Yeah. And the, it's interesting because the, the New Testament, I mean, the Old Testament, a lot of it too, but the New Testament's literally written to churches. Mm-hmm. And it was written, and there again, people can [01:24:50] correct me if I'm wrong, but like it was written to people that were saved.

[01:24:52] Like, it was assumed that most people in church were saved. Mm-hmm.

[01:24:54] KYLE: That's why, why would, why would you go to church? Believers.

[01:24:56] GARY: Yeah.

[01:24:57] TRAVIS: I mean, you're under persecution, right? I mean, that's why you see [01:25:00] in, let's say like in China, you don't find a lot of churches with 90% unbelievers. A bunch of pew warmers. A

[01:25:05] GARY: bunch of pew

[01:25:05] TRAVIS: warmers.

[01:25:06] No. No, because you're not gonna risk prison- Yeah ... for something you don't believe, right?

[01:25:09] GARY: So, and [01:25:10] we do have that. We do have that, and we have that for varying reasons in different denominations, right? And every denomination has people that are checking the box and going. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's just an interesting concept.[01:25:20]

[01:25:20] But the thing is, none of faith is about denomination, about a church. It's a personal journey.

[01:25:26] TRAVIS: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:26] GARY: And, and I think people- And everybody's gonna have their own ... and everybody's gonna have their own, I think. [01:25:30] And there again, people use that to say, "I don't need to be in Christian community," and that, I wouldn't agree with that either.

[01:25:34] I think it's very important to be in Christian community. But I think we put a lot of emphasis on the tribal thing and the [01:25:40] denomination and all this weird stuff, and it's like, well.

[01:25:42] KYLE: There's a last couple verses of Romans that I just happened to see right here, which kind of talks about this. Verse, uh, um, 31.

[01:25:48] "Well, then, if we [01:25:50] emphasize faith, does this mean we can forget about the law? Of course not. In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law." [01:26:00] Because Jesus fulfilled it for us. Well, I- So, and so having faith in Him, and so for- I- ... anybody that wants to fulfill the law, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[01:26:08] TRAVIS: Having faith and, and not struggling [01:26:10] with assurance doesn't mean that you don't struggle with sin. It doesn't mean that you don't still go back to old ways and old habits, and have to run... Like, I need to do freedom sessions again. I know [01:26:20] that.

[01:26:20] GARY: Mm.

[01:26:20] TRAVIS: Because I've, in the last couple months especially, I feel like I've kind of fallen off a cliff with my...

[01:26:25] Just, just everything. I just need to start over. Like, it's, it's, uh, it, it seems [01:26:30] like it's a different issue now, but it just, it's opened up a whole different part of my life. It's like I st- I'm just not liking myself again, and it, it, it ties to a different part of my life. [01:26:40] It's like, "Okay, now I guess I need to learn how to deal with that now."

[01:26:43] So it, it's not a, you know-

[01:26:46] KYLE: It's not an arrival thing, and now, now I got it licked. Yeah. It's like it's keep- That's the Christian- ...

[01:26:49] GARY: keep, keep

[01:26:49] KYLE: [01:26:50] learning and learning ... that's the

[01:26:50] GARY: walk, right? Yeah, that's the walk, yeah. Of all Christians, right? And I, and there again, I think that that's something that in church we don't necessarily do a, a service of.

[01:26:56] We have this idea of I think there sh- we should all be in a constant state of [01:27:00] repentance.

[01:27:00] TRAVIS: Mm.

[01:27:01] GARY: Right? And I think what does that look like, right? And that will look ver- it should look very different when you've been a Christian for 30 years as opposed to three. Mm. And most of us, doesn't matter how long we've been a Christian, look at [01:27:10] the person that's in the beginning and judge, rather than just say, "Man, sanctification looks very different in people's lives," and- Yeah

[01:27:16] and you never know what people's stories are, right? Yeah. So.

[01:27:19] KYLE: [01:27:20] Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed that episode. I am-

[01:27:23] GARY: Done.

[01:27:24] KYLE: Uh, we are at one, uh, 45 minutes twice 'cause we had to stop halfway through 'cause the batteries went dead, but, uh, thank you for listening. If [01:27:30] they wanna get ahold of you, uh, Centric Manufacturing or- Pristine,

[01:27:33] TRAVIS: Pristine Actions

[01:27:34] KYLE: you got a sweet action.

[01:27:34] GARY: Both places would have websites. Google it.

[01:27:36] TRAVIS: Uh, my, Centric does not have a website, no.

[01:27:38] KYLE: Yeah. It has loop-

[01:27:38] TRAVIS: Are you serious? No. [01:27:40] Are you ser- are you that busy? Yeah, basically.

[01:27:44] KYLE: Don't need a website. I love it. Websites are getting- We're making one up at you right now. Hopefully- ... convoluted anyway.

[01:27:48] Even, like, I'm getting rid of my website, just making [01:27:50] it, like, a glorified Linktree.

[01:27:51] TRAVIS: No, guys.

[01:27:52] GARY: Website, people like information.

[01:27:54] TRAVIS: You find out so much. Within two months I hope to have a website, but we've been going five years now, and I haven't. Are you getting Claude to build your website [01:28:00] for you? No, Jamie from Kula is doing it.

[01:28:02] Jamie, I don't want you to get fired, but you- ... should definitely be using Claude. Building

[01:28:05] KYLE: a website and doing branding is different. Yeah. He's doing your branding- He's

[01:28:09] TRAVIS: doing the whole branding deal ... [01:28:10] okay,

[01:28:10] KYLE: versus- Yeah.

[01:28:11] TRAVIS: Yeah. And I just do not feel like dealing with building a website. No, me neither. I tried about seven times now to start, and it's like every time I just, I

[01:28:18] KYLE: hate it.

[01:28:18] If you have any questions, uh, [01:28:20] send them in. Um, you can do that on the, my website still if you're just curious to see how, uh-

[01:28:23] TRAVIS: For now.

[01:28:24] KYLE: For now. For now, until we get rid of it. Um, and, um, and I'll think I'll add a new question form on there b- or on social [01:28:30] media, or hit up

[01:28:30] GARY: Gary. An easier to find question form.

[01:28:32] KYLE: Yes, that's right.

[01:28:33] GARY: It's, it's a plethora. It's Pandora's. It's trying to get into, like, send anonymous question. You wonder if it's actually anonymous. You don't feel like it is 'cause you're [01:28:40] sending it to Kyle, you know? Oh,

[01:28:43] KYLE: man. Hope you guys enjoyed. See ya. Verbal diarrhea one more time. Get in here, Gar- uh, Troy.

[01:28:48] Oh, can I get a picture? Yeah. Ah. [01:28:50] And then Leonard's gonna mess our faces up with AI. Nice. Quiet people who sit down here.

[01:28:57] Yeah. Interesting. Good job, man. [01:29:00]

[01:29:00] TRAVIS: I can talk. I can do that. Not like I like doing it all the time, but half the time you're asking these questions, I'm

[01:29:09] KYLE: like, "Well, who's gonna listen to this? I actually don't care right now." No, it does not [01:29:10] matter

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