Why Nobody Ever Taught Us How To Do Relationships | Coach Jayson Gaddis - EP 50

March 21, 2026

JAYSON: [00:00:00] Okay. You there? Excellent.

KYLE: Yes,

JAYSON: I got you now. How are you? I'm well yourself?

KYLE: Yeah. Pretty good. Pretty good. What's the, the neck, the neck chain necklace? I dunno what you call that.

JAYSON: Yeah. Necklace. Uh, I don't know. It's just a, it's a thing I've had and reconfigured over 20 years probably. I wear it at different times.

Yeah.

KYLE: Okay. Yeah. Right on. Cool. Well, thanks again for doing this. Do you have any questions before we get started?

JAYSON: Oh, I'm actually, man, I'm ready to, I'm ready to rock. Uh, appreciate you, you know, taking the time and, you know, again, psyched for the conversation.

KYLE: Sounds good. Awesome. I always do, uh, uh, or often do a quick prayer before I start recording.

Uh, do you any, have any issue with that?

JAYSON: You often do A what? Quick what? Oh, no. Good prayer. Do do your thing,

KYLE: man. Ask for our blessing.

JAYSON: Yeah.

KYLE: Okay. Sounds good. Valer. Thanks that, uh, Jason and I get a hang out this morning and a recorded [00:01:00] episode together. Um, ask that you would bless us as we record at that, for whoever listens down the road.

It'll be an encouragement to 'em and they'll be blessed by it. And, uh, would you please give us clarity of mind? Um, and thanks again for this opportunity. In Jesus' name, amen.

JAYSON: Amen.

KYLE: Thanks man.

JAYSON: Yeah.

KYLE: Okay. I will, uh, yeah, it's very conversational style. Feel free to throw things back at me and ask me questions as well.

Um, but otherwise I'll just roll into the intro and we'll

JAYSON: get into it. Awesome. Remind me your, um, family situation, married kids, et cetera. Just remind me about that.

KYLE: Yeah. Married, uh, three boys, um, eight, four and zero. Had a daughter that passed away as a stillborn in 2019, and my wife and I did deal with infidelity.

We separated five times over three years and we're still together and we made it through.

JAYSON: Incredible. Cool. So,

KYLE: yeah. Uh, that's why, and part of the reason probably why this topic is still important Yeah. As well. Okay. I'll roll into it. [00:02:00] Welcome back guys, episode of the Furious Security Show. My guest today is Jason Gaddis.

He is the author, he's an author, relationship expert, and the founder of their relationship school. After years of working as a counselor and realizing that most of us are emotionally illiterate when it comes to love, Jason made it his mission to teach people the one class we didn't get in school, how to actually do relationships.

He is the host of a Jason Gaddis podcast and the author of the bestselling book Getting two Zero, which is a practical guide to the high stakes conflict. Resolution. What I appreciate most about Jason's work is that he doesn't treat marriage like it's a fairytale. He treats it like a dojo. He believes conflict isn't a sign a failure, but a biological opportunity to sharpen our character and deepen our commitments.

Jason, thank you very much for taking the time to, uh, chat with me.

JAYSON: Great to be here.

KYLE: You've said most people, um, are emotionally illiterate. [00:03:00] What did you see in your therapy work that led you to that conclusion?

JAYSON: Yeah, so much of the work of a, you know, a good couple or a good relationship, whether it's a business partnership, a parent child relationship, is about the language of emotions and how to communicate them and how to receive them.

Um, and it seems like a lot of us are taught to kind of stuff our feelings or use our feelings to lash out, but we're not really taught to, um. Share, articulate what's going on inside, and then receive someone else's emotional life in a good way that has both people feeling cared about.

KYLE: And in, so you were doing your counseling work, and I'm assuming this is what a lot of the counseling stuff is based on, is that people aren't communicating and it's gotten outta hand.

Uh, what made you feel like you couldn't deal with the issues in counseling? What made you say, Hey, I like people are coming here, they need to be taught before it gets [00:04:00] this bad. Is that kind of what your thinking was, or,

JAYSON: yeah. Well, there's a couple of different kinds of people, right? The people that want quick fixes and band-aids, and then the people that wanna learn.

And so I, I call it the difference between like a client and a student. Uh, client mindset is, fix me chiropractor, fix me, coach, fix me therapist. Student mindset is coach, therapist, chiropractor, tell me what I need to do differently and I'll do it differently. And so, you know, people just wanna run their stories about other people and blame and defend and um, and then they wanna feel better without actually getting better and growing.

And so I got tired of, you know, seeing 20 clients a week, uh, week after week. The same stories the same. No, no, no, I didn't do my homework. Uh, no, nothing's changed. And I was like, man, I either they're wrong or I'm doing something wrong. And so I decided to start experimenting with longer term commitments with people.

Like, I'm gonna actually show you how to do something like a skill and we're gonna learn it like a [00:05:00] martial art, uh, over time and you're gonna get better at this. And that's when I started a school and made people commit to nine to nine months of training. And then the results were dramatically different than therapy results.

KYLE: Okay. So is it specifically, you think the biggest part of therapy was that It wasn't very committal like that. It's just you can just do one, uh, like session at a time and that it, that's it. And people aren't committed long term. If there was like a nine month commitment to counseling, for example, do you think the results would be different?

JAYSON: Not necessarily. 'cause people go to therapy for years, decades even, and don't change. Um. So sometimes it's the modality, sometimes it's the, the person's just stuck in their victim consciousness and they, they really don't wanna get better. They wanna blame and they run and run their stories. And so there's a, there's a lot of variables, but I, I do notice that when you push people to make a commitment and you challenge them to actually develop and you frame it like development, uh, like you can't get [00:06:00] stronger in the gym unless you actually keep pushing your weight limit.

Um, you're just gonna stay stuck at the same level. Uh, and it's uncomfortable. There's always discomfort. And a lot of people, you know, a lot of us, it's just hedonistic adaptation in humans. We don't like discomfort and, you know. Yeah. So, but when people are like, okay, I can embrace discomfort and I can make a commitment of time and, and let's find out if I get better, you know?

KYLE: Hmm hmm. Okay. And do you, did counseling also, um, restrict you? 'cause there are certain rules in counseling that you couldn't tell the, um, the, the client what you actually thought about certain things and that they were being a like a bitch or like,

JAYSON: sometimes

KYLE: like,

JAYSON: yeah, sometimes. I mean, I look, I stopped being a therapist when I started drinking ayahuasca and just like bending the rules and I was talking publicly online about my own issues and I would use case studies for my clients.

I was writing a blog and posting on Facebook. This is [00:07:00] in, you know, 2008, 2009. And I started just talking more openly. And I, I felt like people were like, Hey man, you're a therapist. You shouldn't talk like this and you shouldn't suggest people go do psychedelics and you shouldn't, you know, there's a lot of taboo, like no-nos, um, that I could lose my license.

So I just said, cool. I don't want a license anymore. I don't wanna call myself a therapist anymore. I'll call myself a coach. And then that just gave me the freedom to, um. Be myself, which is really what therapy, good therapy and coaching is about, is helping people be who they really are. Um, and if therapists are hiding behind a mask not being themselves, like how, how's that work?

KYLE: Yeah. So do you have a, I mean, I very much agree with that. So I was in counseling since I was nine years old and, and did so much of it and still actually do some therapy now, but, um, the, I got the most out of when I got coached and when I had a therapist that broke the rules and told me what he actually thought.

JAYSON: Yeah.

KYLE: Um, and that made a ma massive difference. So you [00:08:00] think fundamentally the method that and the rules around counseling right now are actually hindering a lot of

JAYSON: growth? I think they can be. Um, again, it's so much of it depends on the practitioner. You know, I train coaches and I, one of the things I tell them is, you.

You don't always want to tell people what you think. Like if a person's like comes in and is like, should I break up with my partner and what should I do, coach, you don't necessarily tell them what to do, right? Because if it doesn't go well, they're gonna come back and blame you. Well, you told me to do this.

KYLE: That's

right.

JAYSON: So we, we have to be careful about being authentic and saying what we really think and, and what we really see. Um, so it's a, it's a dance and we wanna empower people to find the answers on their own, but we also want to be, um, you know, we have opinions. We have biases, and, and I think it's, it's okay and agendas.

Like I, as a coach, I have an agenda for people to get from point A to B and I'm like, I know how to get people moving and [00:09:00] not everybody wants to do that. And so I, I tell them sometimes what I think, I think you're not doing the work. I'll, I'll say something like that, right? I don't think you really want this.

Um, but I don't tell them what they should do with their life.

KYLE: Yeah. Understood. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't think a good coach should do that. Um, how, how, how did we get to this point culturally? Because I was talking to Dr. Hawkins recently at the Marriage Recovery Center, and he's, he considers what's going on in just, uh, western culture as a pandemic of an emotionally immature men, um, and, and that haven't learned these skills.

Maybe it's women as well, but how well has that always been? Have you studied the history of, of different cultures and stuff like that where maybe they're stronger in these areas and or do you have anything reasons why you believe we're at the state we're in culturally, um,

JAYSON: topic? Yeah, that's a good question.

I, I don't really know. I'm not c certainly not an academic scholar of, of culture and how we got here. But I, I could just share my, what I see, and I'm curious what you think as well, I, I agree with, [00:10:00] uh, your previous guest about there is, um, it seems to me that when I look around at like male leaders, uh, today, it's, you know, it's, it's always kind of made been true that pe men in power kind of hide and they lie and they do backdoor deals, and I get it, like politicians are, are kind of like this, but we're at another level of lying, cheating, and stealing openly here in America.

And I, I just am like embarrassed at, at the level of, um, you know, like really, like, we're all okay with this. And obviously not everybody's okay with it, but plenty of people are. Um, and I, I think it, for me, men, if we're having a conversation around men and like, what's wrong, wrong with a lot of men, it comes back to how we raise boys.

I just, I just think boys are raised to. Be tough, prioritize themselves over the relationship, whereas girls are taught to prioritize the relationship over themselves. [00:11:00] And, uh, you know, stuff your emotions be tough, be act strong, don't show weakness. And then boy, culture with video games, sports, um, hip hop musicians like you name it, just rein and the misogyny and, and Super Bowl ads and, and everything sort of reinforces this objectification of women.

Um, performance. It equals success and means you're worthy of love. And it's about stepping on other people to get to the top and just a bunch of messages that is invisible. And a lot of parents don't even know what's going on. And then we were all surprised when we have a grown man in his, you know, thirties that can't do emotions and is like hurting his marriage.

Everybody's like, wow, what's going on? And it's like, well, how was this kid raised? That's just sort of my take. Curious what you think.

KYLE: Yeah. And yeah, I would, I would agree. A lot of it is driven by dads being in this state themselves and then [00:12:00] having kids and, or you know, a guy's being like a 30-year-old you mentioned, and him having kids and then not being able to teach his kids 'cause he doesn't know what he is doing either.

Right. And that, and that cycle just continues, but. Um, I mean, this road's been around for a while and, and, and I guess, do you have any inclinations on like, what, what happened, what's happened the last 30, 40 years? Because it seems to be getting worse like that, that dads stop teaching their kids, uh, um, on these issues and kinda let just like culture basically teach 'em?

JAYSON: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a pocket of dads that, that care and want to become emotionally literate and want to do the work and obviously raise their sons in a more balanced way. So I wanna recognize there's obviously a small group of dads doing that. Mm-hmm. And it seems like the bulk of of dads are, you know, they're just, they can't, you can't raise a son and, and moms participate in this too.

Uh, you can't raise a son, like you said, if you're emotionally jammed up or psychologically don't understand yourself and you don't self-reflect at all, [00:13:00] um, you're gonna just project so much of your unfinished business onto your kids. And that's everything from winning is the best. Um, girls are less than boys.

Uh, you know, there's just so many messages that we could just unpack that

KYLE: Yeah.

JAYSON: Are super problematic. And I don't, how did we get here? I mean, I was listening to something from David Brooks, I think it was this morning or yesterday. Um, he's an author and he's like, we, we seem to have lost over the, his, his take was over the last 50 years or so, we've lost our moral compass, like an agreement about how to behave morally.

Like what's kind of good and bad and what's right and wrong. That somehow we're just unmoored, um, over time. And I, I don't really know the causes.

KYLE: Hmm. What do you think about, um, I thought I explained before, and it seems somewhat logical that the porn pandemic has caused a lot of this. That if you start, stop, start watching porn at, you [00:14:00] know, 10, 12 years old, your emotional growth actually gets blocked and stops until you stop the addictive behavior.

Yeah. And so you're, you know, you're 30 years old now and you've been looking at porn since you were 12. So you basically, uh, have the adolescence of a 12-year-old until you stop and actually start, uh, um, dealing with yourself. Would you, would you agree?

JAYSON: I would, I would say it's not just porn though, it's, it's screens in general.

Like if you hand a 12-year-old, a 6-year-old boy iPad, anytime he's emotionally upset, if there's no education and feelings in the home and like, this is how we do upset, this is how we do feelings, and this is how we process emotions and this is how we talk about it. If that's not happening, the parents and the kids are going to their screens for like medication and distraction away from feelings.

It could be porn, it could be TikTok, it could just be video games, it could be tv, whatever. Um, just in constant scrolling that when I'm upset, I go to my phone and I feel a little better because there's all this dopamine and I [00:15:00] don't really have to deal with anything. And then I go back to my life and it's uncomfortable.

And so I'm just gonna constantly distract, dissociate and be busy so I don't have to feel any discomfort in any emotion going on. And that's, that's hard to be around long term.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. What's your own journey been like in this, on this subject? Like how did you become to become, uh, emotionally available and, and uh, and have the different skills?

JAYSON: Yeah, man, I mean, uh, I was raised with a dad who was, emotions were definitely not okay. Right. They're still not okay with him. Um, and so what did I do? Like I did all the things kids do, just distract and, um. You know, compete and, uh, just stay busy so I don't have to feel my feelings. And in my twenties, that created a lot of intimate relationship problems with the women I dated.

'cause I was the emotionally jammed up guy. I would project like all that hatred [00:16:00] I had for my emotional life. I would just project onto women. And when they got emotional, I would just have disdain and I would move away and be like, I can't deal with this. You're fired. And I'd move on to another new relationship.

And then I was like, oh, maybe I'm the problem at age 29. And that's when everything shifted. 'cause I was like, wow, I, I'm so jammed up emotionally and relationally. I, I gotta figure this part of my life out. 'cause I actually did want partnership. I did want to feel known inside. I felt kind of, I had lots of friends, but I felt really alone.

So I was like, man, I think I'm the problem here. And, and then I went to grad school, studied psychology and started learning. Yeah. How to feel, I mean, my. First therapist for like six months was like, how are you feeling? And I would like say, I don't know. And then it eventually it turned into numb. And then eventually I started, you know, anger and different emotions started coming up.

And then eventually the sadness spilled out and grief and shame. And, and then I started learning how to feel those with her. You know, like look her in the eyes and feel is like so intense if you've never done that. And then I joined [00:17:00] a men's group and, you know, uh, started just having more authentic relationships where feelings and, and authentically sharing what was going on inside was welcome.

Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. Did you have to forgive yourself or anything?

JAYSON: Um, well I'm not so much into the forgiveness model, um, but I am into, uh, coming to more, into peace with myself around some of my choices I made. Like I was in a college fraternity and did some really stupid things and hurt people. You know, I hurt women, I hurt men.

Um, I hurt myself. And looking back on that time, like that's, you know, that's where I was at at the time. And, um, I've had some conversations with people. I hurt women, I hurt and made amends that way and said, Hey, I just wanna take responsibility for my behavior. And that's been very healing for me. Um, and also looking at like, why would I, it's easy to look back on our past and say I should have done X, Y, and Z, but when you're, you know, when you're in the moment, it's like, you don't have that.[00:18:00]

So why would I judge myself about that? But it is important for me to clean up and repair hurts I've caused with myself and other people. Yeah.

KYLE: Hmm. What is the forgiveness model that you don't agree with?

JAYSON: Well, forgiveness kind of imp implies right and wrong. Um, there's a morality to it that is a stage, which is fine.

Um. But I, I believe, like in my experience and one of my mentors taught me this, that if there's negative things that have happened to us or that we've done to others in the past, you can look at kind of the upsides of what, what hurtful things you've done, upsides to yourself and upsides to the other person.

So you can just have a more balanced way of viewing the whole thing. Um, and that's not to let me off the hook. It's to actually look genuinely to see if, well, maybe me hurting these women, um, by, by blocking my heart and blaming them, helped them realize I don't want to be with an asshole and I'm gonna go find a guy that's actually more [00:19:00] available.

And, you know, like, that's good that, that, uh, I was a jerk in that way. Uh, not that I hurt their feelings of course, but just that they moved on to someone better, um, than me.

KYLE: Okay. And the forgiveness model doesn't allow for that? Or, or it just, but it, it's too much focused on, you believe that there's a, there's a, a blame and there's, there's guilt or

JAYSON: what's Well, I, I think I can get more behind forgiveness if people do the work to genuinely forgive, but too often it's lip service and it's just a statement.

It's like an intellectual forgiveness. It's not an embodied all the way down. Okay. I feel remorse, regret, and shame for what I did, and I've felt all those feelings. I've looked in the other person's eyes and I've said, wow, I did that to you. Ugh. You know, it's so awful, and I'm sorry, or whatever. That, that's really different kind of forgiveness than what most people do.

KYLE: Okay. Okay. I think that's forgiveness in other one. Is

JAYSON: it Okay? Yeah. Fair. [00:20:00]

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Okay. And, and what is the basis of your beliefs? Like, are you a Christian? Is it, are you a humanist? What, what's the, like, what, what is your foundation?

JAYSON: Yeah. I'd say I'm more of a humanist, um. I see God as, like one of my mentors calls it the grand organ, grand organized design, GOD.

There's a mystery here that I can't possibly explain that I, I think, is really, um, magical and deeply spiritual. And, um, I see all of it as everything around me is helping me develop and become who I am. And it's evolutionary. Like, there's, there's a movement towards, it's like chaos and order, constantly evolving.

Um, and I'm a, I'm a part of that mystery. I don't get what's in charge or, you know, but I trust deeply that there's something bigger way vastly beyond me in the cosmos. That's, um, that is, there is like a hidden order [00:21:00] to things and I'm, I just bow at the mystery of it all. Um, and I see my marriage as a spiritual path, my parenting as a spiritual path, all designed to, again, to help me evolve and awaken to who I am.

Um, and, and then it's about service, right? I, I, I was a Buddhist for many years, technically still am, but I don't call myself a Buddhist. And, you know, that's, that's a really powerful philosophy for me more than anything, of seeing the basic goodness in everybody. And, um, it's a great model for relating to suffering, um, that you create more suffering by just trying to resist suffering and instead just open your arms that life is suffering and perhaps then you can do something about it if you accept that this is part of life, you know?

KYLE: Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh, we, we talked about it briefly already, but I just wanna go and dive into it a little bit more deeply. But what, what role do you think social media and, uh, screen time pornography play [00:22:00] in emotional, uh, immaturity and, and relational breakdown?

JAYSON: Yeah, a huge, massive role. Um, and, and if it wasn't.

Pornography or screens now, like if we rewind the tapes to my dad's generation where there was no screen, it's like, well, what was going on then? And it's, again, it's just sort of a neglectful parenting of letting kids, um, like shutting down emotion. Hey, don't feel upset 'cause I don't know what to do with you.

Go outside and play, you know, get outta here type of mentality. It's like kids are just, they feel orphaned, they feel on their own to deal with their emotional life. And children don't know what to do with their emotions. And so they stuff it, they act it out, they masturbate, they fight, they do all kinds of things.

And I think the screen porn kind of thing has just made it that much easier and worse. Honestly, when I watch kids, you know, how, how many times do you go to the airport and there's a quiet family of five just sitting there [00:23:00] and all the 2-year-old on the way up to 12 year olds are just sitting there on their screens and no one's talking and, and the adults are just staring at their phones.

It's like. Wow, is this what we're doing? You know, no one's looking at each other's, no one's connecting ing and playing's. And I've seen, you know, we raised our kids to, to not do that. So we always had coloring books and games and knitting and um, you know, we'd just be hanging out and like looking at the planes and looking around and playing with each other.

And I saw a family once, uh, doing this recently, and it was kind of a rare moment because I don't see this much anymore. And they were all on the, their pound boundaries. The parents had really good boundaries and the kids were, there were three kids and they were all on the floor in the terminal playing and having such a good time and playing a game.

And, and then they were running around and then they were looking in airplanes, and then they were, yeah, I was just like, yeah, this is where it's at. And everyone else is just numbed down on their phones. So I, I think it's really problematic for relationships specifically because under stress, as adults, what do we do when we're triggered and we can't deal with our partner?

We go back [00:24:00] to our screens. Um, a lot of us. And it just, it, it's, it compromises our development. We're, we're never, when are we gonna grow up in our, in our emotional relational world, if we, we gotta put down the phone and deal with ourselves.

KYLE: Yeah. Not try to escape constantly. So, I know, I believe you have a couple kids.

What does this practically look like in your home when you're not at the airport or, or outside? Like, you have certain rules on weekends or in the evenings regarding screen times. Yeah.

JAYSON: How do you do that? A hundred percent. Uh, so our kids are now 17 and 15, and we were a no screen household. I, I hadn't, didn't have a TV up until about two years ago.

Um.

KYLE: Oh wow. What made you get

JAYSON: a tv? Movies? Just watching movies with the kids.

KYLE: Okay.

JAYSON: You know, eventually it was like, they were like, can we watch Moana? Can we watch? You know, and I was like, all right, fine. You know, my wife and I were like, okay. And now it's kind of a fun thing to have a TV and watch movies with the kids, uh, you know, reasonably.

Um, but we had no, you know, I feel grateful that I, I'm not raising a 2-year-old right now [00:25:00] 'cause it would be harder for me. But back then it was like the iPhone had just come out when my kids were really small. Um, and it wasn't as, uh, amazing and distracting and all encompassing, you know, so it felt a little easier.

So I just wanna own that. Um, but yeah, we, so no screens, no movies. Like my son's first movie was when he was 10 years old. Um, his first phone was when he was 13 and it was a, um, a kind of a brick phone where all you could do is text and voicemail or call phone numbers. Um, and then he got his first smartphone at, uh, 14 and a half I think.

And we said, no social media till you're 16. And so when he was 16, he got 10 minutes of Snapchat a day. And then when he was 16 and a half, he asked for Instagram and we went this back and forth and we said, okay, we'll let you do, uh, let's see. I think it's now it's 15 minutes of Instagram, 10 minutes of Snapchat a day.

Um, we can remove that at any time. Kids help pay for their cell phones. [00:26:00] Um. And of course my daughter got it slightly earlier. 'cause the second right is always the first one has to like do the hard thing and kind of breaks in the rules for the second one. Um, so that's how we've done it. And it's great because our dude, you know, hanging out with our kids.

We, we have family night or we're just hanging out and we can look at each other and connect and everybody's laying on our bed or the couch and we're just, the phones are over on the phone counter every night we put phone, phones, go on the phone counter. You're not allowed to bring 'em in your room. Um, so we're very boundaried and the kids, it's not a power struggle at all.

Never has been. Um, and it's

KYLE: because you started

JAYSON: from the start. Yeah. Just 'cause we, I think we did it well from the start and we value our culture and our family is all about relationship and connection. So. And the parents, the big people, us know how to do that, you know, and we know how to connect with children.

We know how to connect with kids and we like children. We like kids. We're not trying to get back to work and like shove the kid off to the nanny, or I can't wait to get to, you know, to you [00:27:00] to school so I can get back to my shit. Um, so I think we did a lot really well in the beginning and set the foundation that it's, there's no power struggles around screens here.

KYLE: Yeah. And what about your own management of your own screen time? Like, do you have, um, any restrictions on yourself or are you just

self

JAYSON: control? Yeah, that's a good call out. No, I struggle. I struggle, uh, because, um, I mean, I'd be interested if my kids were here right now, would they say, you know, if you, you ask them dad, you know, how's your dad do with screens?

Um, they might say he's on his phone all the time. I don't know what they'd say. Or, yeah, he's pretty good. So I'm not sure. I'd be curious what they would say. Mm-hmm. Um. My phone's in my pocket constantly, and I'm looking at it all the time. Um, you know, I have an online business, so I, that's my excuse, but of course I use it for distractions, scrolling news or Instagram or whatever.

Um, and I don't, I don't love how much I use my phone. My wife is way better. She can set her phone down all day and not even look at it again. [00:28:00] I'm like, where's my phone? Is that true for you? Are you.

KYLE: Yeah, I'm pretty similar. So I do use something called that, the K safe, uh, kitchen safe lockbox. That's, so you can set a timer on it and for up, up to 11 days, it's a clear box and you can't open it.

You have to break it to open it, and you have to buy a new box otherwise. So I've broke two boxes in four years,

JAYSON: dude, that's pretty good.

KYLE: And, uh, yeah, so we'll put the TV remote in there or the phone. So on the weekends I'll do, uh, Saturday and Sunday all day, usually

JAYSON: amazing.

KYLE: Um, or at dinner time I'll do it from five till eight o'clock till the kids are in bed.

And then I have at least three hours. And it mentally makes such a big difference. 'cause if it's on the counter at six 30, uh, right after supper, like I am, like I subconsciously am thinking about it. It's ready to go check it as soon as dinner's done. But if it's locked up, I just don't. And, uh, so I do that and I do 10 minutes of social media a day between YouTube, Instagram,

JAYSON: and Facebook.

Okay, dude, thank you. I'm, I'm learning. Good, good role modeling for me.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, [00:29:00] it's, I, I notice so much probably on myself how much happier I am. Not even that my kids like it, but I'm, when I'm not on my phone, so, yeah. Exactly. Um, I wanna go back, go to your book, uh, and, and some, just some core tools and practical application.

What is the Getting to Zero? What is that concept? How, how did you come up with it? Why, why did you write this book?

JAYSON: Yeah. Well, I wrote the book because I kept teaching people. Uh, it seemed like my jam was, well, I'm really good at helping people resolve conflict and, and how to do that in kind of a systematic step by step way.

I can teach a simple process and most people can do it now. It's harder to stay with it long term if you don't keep practicing it. And getting to zero is a term that means getting back to a good place, which is a place where we're both feel connected again after conflict. Um, zero means kind of zero conflict 'cause there's connection now, but it doesn't mean we're gonna try to get to our [00:30:00] relationship to have zero conflict ever.

That's definitely a misunderstanding. Um, yeah. So it just means let's, what do we need to do to get, feel good again together? And, um, that's really what the book is about.

KYLE: Okay. And what are those tools like? How, how, just like, uh, in a brief overview, what are those tools to get better? Let's say you're in a heated conflict with your wife or your husband.

What are the tools?

JAYSON: Yeah, so I, I help with kind of frameworks first and context. I always like to set context and then I get into kind of tools and practicals step by steps. And real quick, the framework and the context that we're operating under is conflict's not a problem. You don't need to shame yourself or your partner because you don't know how to do it.

It's scary. It's uncomfortable, of course, because there's a lot at stake. We're human social mammals and we don't like it being cast out, or we don't like losing a relationship. We don't like feeling disconnected. And I talk about how this all started in childhood and how we, how our relational blueprint kind of sets the [00:31:00] stage.

And then I, I talk about attachment a little bit and then we get into, okay, now what? You're an adult and you can't figure it out with your partner, what do you do? And um, in short, we can talk first or we can listen first. This is after conflict. Usually people are like, well, how do I not yell and scream?

And I'm like, it's less about that. And it's more about how do you clean up the mess? And get back to a good connected place, right? And so I, I focus heavy on how, like what happens after the fight, whether it's five minutes or five hours later or five days later. How do you feel good again? And you can talk first or listen first, or you're gonna talk first.

You just start with ownership. My part is, and I can imagine the impact on you was, so I lead with ownership and then I followed up with empathy. Like I think about what that must have been like for me to raise my voice, for example, with you and man, you must have felt scared or shut down or, so that's a way to start the conversation by talking, or you can listen first.

And I have a process called fu, which stands for [00:32:00] listen until the other person feels understood. And that's a good bar for everybody. Rather than, listen, I'm gonna listen for my turn and I'm gonna like, I can't wait to tell you what you did wrong. We're gonna listen until the other person feels understood.

Not until I think you are. I understand. But until you say, yeah, Jason, uh, you're understanding me, that's the bar we're aiming for. Um, and I did that after years of defending myself with my wife and I, I was like, she'd say, you don't understand. I'd say, yeah, I do. That went on for years and I was like, this is really dumb.

KYLE: Yeah.

JAYSON: I need to come up with something more creative. So the four steps, there's eight steps in Lu Fu in the book, but the four simple steps are just um, to reflect back kind of the essence of what you heard. Just get them, what are they saying? Um.

KYLE: Encapsulation

JAYSON: and then, uh, validate the feeling. Listen for a feeling word like sad, hurt, angry and frustrated and validate it, which has nothing to do with right and wrong.

Um, it just means your feelings are valid. Yeah. You got scared, you got [00:33:00] upset. Got it. That makes sense. And then own your part. Uh, third step. And then fourth is empathy. So third step is like I did raise my voice. I, so rather than defend yourself, just take responsibility. Yeah. I was a jerk. I, I looked the other way.

I rolled my eyes. I try to really own whatever you did to contribute to the mess. And then empathize is kind of like, Ugh, man, that must have sucked. And yeah, I can relate. That is hard when you do that to me. And, um, yeah. And that, and that starts to clear the air. And, and then if we both agree to do that for each other, obviously, 'cause it doesn't work if I'm doing it to you and you're never, you refuse to do a practice like this with me, it's not gonna work.

KYLE: So I know one group of people would really. Benefit from this. 'cause they're in a lot of conflict and fighting a lot. And then there's a whole other group that never fights. They just avoid conflict altogether. Um, and what, what is your, uh, I mean, conflict is good. It's a pathway to intimacy. How do you counsel people [00:34:00] that aren't fighting but they're just avoiding and, and there isn't much of a relationship or there's, uh, the, the flip side of it.

Do, do you talk about recovery there as well? How do we get recovered from that spot? Or do you push people to more just, Hey, learn how to learn how to fight well,

JAYSON: yeah. I mean, we have to look at each couple's unique, right? Um, their story of why this is happening. And often it's the fear of conflict is I don't wanna make this worse.

Uh, it's already bad enough. Um, I can't tell the truth here. They overreact or they have some big thing. People have always valid reasons why they're not having hard conversations. And so I, I help them see that. And then I say, well, the path forward is the bridge is to have hard conversations. It's to start being honest about how you really feel and what you really think.

To learn how to, um, receive that from your partner. Because most people are like, well, I've tried that. And it's like, they just get defensive. It's like, I know. So you're gonna have to try a new way, which is, both of you agree that it's okay to have hard conversations. It's okay [00:35:00] to tell the truth. It's okay to give each other feedback, and we're gonna both become better listeners.

We're gonna really field our partner's complaints better. And, you know, it's, it's a maturation because when people don't do this, they're, they're literally like children. They're underdeveloped. They're stunted in their growth. And the only way forward is to grow yourself up. You need to learn skills and develop your ability to receive strong emotions and talk about hard things.

And then you earn the right to have a better relationship. But it's not, it's not gonna be given to you. And then there's no easy path 'cause you, you've been avoiding.

KYLE: I remember when, uh, my wife and I started doing our. I remember when our, my wife and I started doing our marriage work. One of things we, uh, I realized was for first my wife didn't communicate at all. Almost got nothing out of her. Um, and then about six months into our recovery work, she started, um, getting mad a lot and, and, and, and really [00:36:00] letting me have it.

And I just like, I was not used to it. And I was like, it was really upsetting and I was talking to my counselor about it and, and he's like, Kyle, this is good. Yeah. She's communicating okay. She still has to practice how to do it well. Uh, but at least it's better than before. And yeah, it sucks that it's yelling or, you know, not kind words or whatever else like that.

But there, there's growth here. And that really helped me understand. You'd be like, oh, okay. Yeah. That's a good point. Never thought about that. At least I'm getting something now.

JAYSON: Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE: Um. And, and so, but it, it's taken years to get to where we are now, where we're, I think, think doing fairly well, uh, still have a long ways to go and continue to work on it, but

JAYSON: That's

KYLE: great.

Um, how long do you see it really takes people, guys to get to an emotional healthy spot from like your ground zero to, um, you know, you're actually starting to get somewhere because there's, it's not a easy fix in my experience. It's like years.

JAYSON: Yeah, I'd say years. I'd say a year. You can start to see six months to a year if you're really working it together, not just on your own, but together.

Um, [00:37:00] you can, or you're taking a course or you're with a group of people, whether it's a men's group or a course that's got a cohort and you're practicing all this stuff together. People progress in six months Absolutely. And, and have lasting change. Like I have, I have a course where it's nine months long and six months in.

People are, it's clicking and it's starting to, they're starting to get it in their body. Uh, that's really powerful. Um, and if you have two people doing that, you know, both partners for example, it's amazing what can happen. But, you know, development, emotional maturity, relational development is slow. Right.

And that's, like you said, it's years depending on the issue. I've been at this man for 20 years now, and I, I still am like a, you know, hurt kid sometimes that just wants to point the finger at my wife. Um, so it's, it's all still in me. My reactivity, my, but my mastery over not clamping down on that and believing it has gotten, you know, incredibly [00:38:00] better.

KYLE: Yeah. What about relating to men? Relating to other men? Like, I, I think it, I see a lot of, um. Emotional maturity in marriages, but also just among other men that men don't know how to connect with each other. They know how to talk about hockey. Yeah. And you know how Trudeau sucks, right? But they don't actually know how to say, I'm having a bad day.

They don't know how to cry with each other. They don't know how to just be real. Do you focus on that as well? And, and how can men learn to how to do that better?

JAYSON: Yeah. I think for guys, because women do that all the time, right? Women typically, most women stereotypically have girlfriends they can open up to and talk and get really honest.

And guys just do, do that way less or not at all. Um, like you said, they go to the bar and talk about the game or something else. Politics, um, the weather, their jobs, they're very good at that. But revealing vulnerability and talking about what's going on inside is much harder. So, um, you know, there's therapy, coaching, men's groups, um, helping a guy.

Like, understand [00:39:00] the cost of continuing to stay jammed up. Like I think the smart guys start to feel really off when you're just being in superficial relationships all the time and your wife's complaining and something and you're like, your life's not working. If you start listening to that voice and trusting it and not making it wrong and not medicating over it, it's gonna guide you toward, huh, I don't like what's going on.

I, I'm gonna investigate and I'm gonna start to become more self-aware of what, what is this off feeling? And then it can guide them into therapy, coaching, um, reading, studying and understanding themselves better, you know, emotions and, and I think men's groups are an excellent place for male to male, like developing that male to male, um, connection where it's okay to hug another man.

It's okay to look in his eyes and talk about how sad you are or how, um, you. Just angry you are at your partner or how sh much shame you feel about your financial situation or whatever. Uh, that starts to [00:40:00] sit set men free. Um, it's incredibly powerful when men start to do that work.

KYLE: Yeah.

JAYSON: As you know.

KYLE: What do you, what do you teach about, uh, boundaries?

Like what, what, what place do healthy boundaries have in, in a, in a relationship?

JAYSON: Yeah. They're pretty critical. It's all part of this, you know, what we could call differentiation in psychology where, um, you know, as little boys or something as kids, we maybe it wasn't okay to, again, speak up or say no to mom or whoever and to just be a yes man, a people pleaser, um, and be a nice guy.

There's so many different variations of someone with no boundaries, right? And part of the work of those people over time is to realize it's okay to say no, it's okay to have boundaries. It's okay to not go to Thanksgiving dinner, you know, the holidays. Whatever, it's okay to just start saying no as a practice.

Um, and that, that becomes, uh, a really great place to [00:41:00] differentiate my feelings from yours that it's okay to be me over here without, and, and it's okay if you're upset even if I make a certain choice. Um, because we can both support each other in that. So there's a lot of ways boundaries can help a couple or friendships really develop.

Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. Do you think, um, boundaries can get unhealthy and that they are used like, as a weapon to create distance?

JAYSON: Yeah, for sure. Some, you know, for example, I've worked with many self-proclaimed nice guys over the years, people pleasers and they, they get hit to boundaries and they're like, oh yeah, fuck everybody.

Like, I'm gonna, you know, and then they swing to the other. They've had really porous boundaries and they swing to the other side of being really rigid and kind of standoffish and, um, and that can hurt. People. And, um, I did that with my parents, for example, when I got hit to this personal growth stuff and cut my mom off for many months.

And, uh, I mean, it was a good step. So it's like, as long [00:42:00] as you have an asterisk with those boundaries, like, Hey, I'm, I don't wanna talk to you Kyle for like two weeks and I still love you. I still care about you, but this is for me, I just, I'm, I'm really suck at saying no. And I, I just need space. And, um, I get it.

If your feelings are hurt and this is what I gotta do for myself, and like, that's like considering our audience and actually caring about their feelings too. Like, I didn't do that with my mom and she was like devastated because I was so rigid in my no contact boundaries. Hmm. Um, it's fine to even go no contact, but be considerate, like, Hey, I'll be back in a couple months.

Or Hey, um, I know this is hard for you. Yeah,

KYLE: yeah, yeah. You talk about, uh, childhood, childhood wounding. In communities where, uh, where family loyalty is extremely high and honoring your parents is like a moral command. How do you acknowledge your parents' failures without feeling like you're betraying them or blaming them?

I see a lot of people struggle [00:43:00] with that, where they just, you know, the fact that their dad might've hurt them or their mom is just something they can't, you know, comprehend or they just don't, don't want to go there because it feels like, you know, they're, you know, talking badly with their parents or things like that.

Do you come across that?

JAYSON: Yeah.

How

KYLE: do you do that?

JAYSON: Hundred percent, dude. So it's like denial is one of the first things we have to get through. And like when you start going to therapy or coaching or doing work on yourself and you start to realize like, oh, you get outta denial about how it was in your childhood, and you're like, actually maybe it wasn't so good.

And you start really reflecting and being honest and maybe even asking your parents questions of, Hey, what happened when I was five? Or What happened to you guys when you were, when I was 10 and. And you start getting curious, you start reacting and you, you finally now are feeling some of the things you pushed down as a kid and, and you now have valid feelings about how shitty your parents did or mistakes they made and, and you wanna let 'em know.

So one of the stages I see people go through is they [00:44:00] want to, they start having a lot of feelings because they've repressed them and then they want to go tell their parents about it and they want to change their parents. Like, you, I can't believe you guys did this and you need to listen to me. And they, they start just wanting their parents to be like them on this personal growth path.

And most of our parents have no interest. And so I think that's a mistake. The, the part that's valid is go feel your feelings. It's okay to be angry at your parents. It's okay to be, feel all this grief for sort of what you missed out on in your childhood, like, et cetera, et cetera. But your parents are probably not really that available for this conversation.

You could try and see, but I would keep the expectations incredibly low. And what I tell people to do, uh, as a practice is radical acceptance of your parents the way they are. Don't ask your, just expect your parents to be the way they are for the rest of their lives and stop making them wrong. Um, this is who they are.

You [00:45:00] know, they did the quote best they could with the values they had. And it's your job to do the work to accept your parents as they are, and set boundaries accordingly. And stand up for yourself. Start having a voice because look, you're, you're an adult now. You're really gonna let your dad who's 80 tell you what to do over the holidays.

Or are you gonna tell yourself what to do and like, take command of your own life and tell him like, Hey, this is what I'm doing, dad and I, I get there's impact over there and I care about you and this is what I'm doing now.

KYLE: Hmm.

JAYSON: So there's a, there's a process there.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. I really like the radical acceptance part.

It is one of the things that I realized, um, a, a week after my daughter died, I remember sitting in my driveway and, and realizing, I, I, I couldn't fix this problem. It was, it was the weirdest thing because it was like, usually any other problem you've, I've experienced was like, your brain starts to fly around and think about possible solutions.

But my brain was just like, it just didn't, didn't move. It was a total surreal experience. And I had a similar experience when I was doing some EMDR [00:46:00] therapy, um, with stuff that happened in my childhood and realizing, Hey, like my, my childhood is done. It's passed. I can't go back there and, and fix it, but my parents can't go back there and be 30 and 40 years old again and fix it either.

And to expect them to fix it now is an expectation they can't meet. And so all of a sudden I realize it's kind of like. It made me think of that experience I had with my daughter and week after she died that it was like, I hate this is, this is dead. I, I need to learn to deal with this. Yes, it's still painful and it affects me just like God's death does.

But it doesn't mean like I have to move on for a minute. Right. It's not a, uh, or maybe move on or learn to accept that this has part of my story, um, and then, and not try to try to get them or myself to change or fix it. And, and that was,

JAYSON: yeah. That's powerful. Yeah. I, I think an important part in that loss is just the acceptance of, of, of the, of the loss allows actually us to feel, especially if we're willing.

It's like, okay, now I can feel my anger or grief, you know, my devastation, all the things, and then we can, [00:47:00] then we can move on. 'cause a lot of people wanna move on without the feeling part.

KYLE: That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

JAYSON: Yeah. I try, I've done that too in, in different situations. Yeah. One thing I just wanted to add about the parent thing is, and another frame we can take besides radical acceptance is we can say.

What are the upsides again to how my parents raised me. A lot of people don't wanna ask that question. For example, my dad emotionally, you know, constipated and jammed up, just constantly shut my feelings down, hurt me a lot, right? And made it very difficult for my relationship life in my twenties. And then my mom had her own weird porous boundaries thing with me.

I was, it was like I needed to unconsciously take care of her to make her feel good about herself. 'cause she felt bad about herself. And she would be there for me some of the time. And some of the time she would kind of punish me with silence. So I had, you know, this weird childhood. I mean, I had a lot, I had a lot of privilege, but I also had this very compromised, relational, emotional thing.

But [00:48:00] the upsides of the whole thing is it pushed me to understand relationships. And I started a school about relationships and made a lot of money and helped a lot of people change their lives. I would not, none of that would've been possible if I would've had a quote, perfect childhood, or my parents were all emotionally available and really sweet and caring to me, and you know, so relational.

I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. So there's an upside to no matter how hard your childhood was, there's upsides to it. And it's like, look at what you're doing with your life. And if you're on purpose, it's very clear. Usually if you're not sure what your purpose is and you're a little lost, it might be more murky for you.

But like my purpose is really clear. I'm here to help people with their relationships. Right. And to heal my own.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah.

JAYSON: And my parents gave me that gift by raising me exactly as they did.

KYLE: Hmm. What advice would you give parents that have a, a, a son, an adult son or adult daughter that's, [00:49:00] you know, waking up to their emotions and, and realizing what's going on, and maybe that's putting strain in that relationship, um, and distance, uh, for a period of time.

What advice would you give the parent?

JAYSON: I would say that, you know, you're the adult here forever. You're the parent and it's your job if you're even listening to this or open-minded. It's your job to be the listener, to be the bigger person and just hear your kids out, you know, and validate their feelings if you know how to do that, like, yeah, honey, I, I, there were some gaps in, in my parenting.

A hundred percent, like own it, that would be incredibly healing for your kid to hear. Um, not a lot of parents will do that or do the work to even be open to that. Uh, but if for some reason there's a parent listening and, uh, with adult children,

I mean, if you can just own your mistakes with your kids and you don't even have to wait for your kids to bring it up, you could go to your kids and say, Hey, I screwed up here and there and I just wanna take responsibility for that.

And I can imagine that really sucked for you. [00:50:00] Um, that would be enormous for parents to do that.

KYLE: Yeah. I see some of the biggest problems in, uh, in tight-knit communities. Where everyone knows everyone. And I think partially 'cause the fear of scandal or, or problems is so high. How do couples do messy repair work when, when the social cost of imperfection feels high, of like, you know, we have issues and things like that.

Or, or that they're, you know, fear what other people might say in the family and the

JAYSON: community. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's really hard because, uh, most of us do want to look good in front of our community. We wanna look like we have it together, right? Financially in our health and our relationships, our marriage, our parenting.

But everybody has to realize, like, that's a front, you know, like, do I want to be a part of a community that where we're fronting all the time, we we're all wearing masks, and is there a pocket of the community? Or could I start a subgroup inside the [00:51:00] community where we do things a little more authentically and openly where it's, it's safe and it's okay to talk about our real problems and what's really going on in the home behind closed doors.

And can we learn how to receive each other's mess without making it wrong or fixing it or judging it? To me, those are the, the best families and communities is if we have places to go like that.

KYLE: Hmm. You teach, um, that we must have a, a solid relationship with ourselves first. How, how do I reconcile that with, um, the theological training that many have where a teacher's self is the problem and, and self-denial is the goal?

JAYSON: Mm-hmm. That's a hard one. I mean, I, I, first of all, to be clear, I don't think we have to quote, heal ourselves to be in a marriage. Right. Or to finally find love. Like if you're single and you're listening, you don't have to be [00:52:00] perfect and do years of therapy before you start dating. It's like. You're gonna have pockets of your own psychology and issues that are just here the rest of your life.

Like, we all have a shadow and the shadow doesn't go away, it's like here forever. Um, so we're a work in progress, like everybody. And can we just be honest about that and then Yeah, of course. Do some self-work, some inner work, a lot of self-reflection and I would say, you know, the denial of the self and, and sort of this like be, are you kind of saying be selfless, don't think about yourself so dang much.

Yeah,

KYLE: yeah. And, and, and that's not all about you and your problems. Just, you know, suck it up and, and serve the other PE person.

JAYSON: Yeah, I do think that has a place, like when I was running a group with adolescents, people who were, uh, sober, getting, uh, sober from drugs and alcohol addiction, they taught me that when you're really having a hard day, go help someone else.

I do think that's [00:53:00] really wise, uh, to not get lost in our, the cesspool of our shame and just our woe is me. 'cause the woe is me thing can be as self-absorbed as the person who's trying to be famous. Right. It's just like you're thinking about yourself all day. Yeah. And so it's like a both end, right? It's like and um, the, the hallmark predictor of securely attached relationships, especially parent child, is a parent's willingness and ability to self-reflect and make meaning and understand their history and their trauma and make meaning out of it and put the pieces together into a coherent narrative that's stand sequel's work.

And that is incredibly helpful to be a parent who self reflects. So that you're not gonna play out your unfinished business all over your kids or ask them to do that work. So that's huge. Yeah. And yeah, we don't wanna get lost in, in our own, uh, issues. Of course, we wanna keep the other people in mind and our life, and we wanna [00:54:00] care.

Uh, and it's, it's just not all about us.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so I, I believe in the Bible's use of marriage primarily as a covenant before God, not, not just a contract. Mm-hmm. For personal fulfillment. Does your model of conscious partnership leave room for staying in a hard marriage pr purely out of a, um, um, covenantal duty?

Or, or is it, or is personal happiness always the metric?

JAYSON: Yeah, that's important. Um. Again, it would be probably case by case, but I, I think it's a bummer that people feel like they have to stick out a miserable marriage or an abusive marriage, or a neglectful marriage or a sexless marriage or a marriage where there's just a lot of harm or neglect going on.

I, I, I'm like, how is that? Who's that serving at the end of the day? And, and that, and usually when one person's suffering like that, the other person's suffering also. So it's not just a [00:55:00] one person suffering in that example, um, both people are, are hurting, uh, in some way and. I mean, teach their own Right.

If you, if that's how you wanna play it. Uh, and you wanna believe that, I think that's okay. And I, I sure there's been cases, it's like the classic example is do you stay, if you're in a miserable marriage, do you stay married for the kids until they're outta the house and then get divorced? Or maybe never get divorced?

'cause you're just like, we, we're not gonna do this because we had the, you know, agreement with God, or

KYLE: yeah,

JAYSON: our church or ourselves. Uh, again, that has a place, but you just have to understand the cost. Like, are, are we both willing to do this? And is this really what our life is for and how we wanna roll and what we wanna do?

And maybe if both people are like, yes, even though we're hurting here and we are distant and having had sex in years and we're just kind of roommates, that's okay. Two people wanna choose that, you know? Yeah. [00:56:00]

KYLE: Yeah. So I had it that the first five years of my marriage were pretty bad, and the next three were terrible.

Like, just like so bad. And then the last two have been the good years and, and it's slowly been getting better. Um, a a lot of people actually recommended that I've divorce or tell Nicole that she divorced as well. I, I'd been unfaithful and it, and it was just like, it was sexless, it was communication less.

It was, you know, it was touchless. It, it was, it was, it was not good. Like my coach told me like, what are you doing? Yeah. This doesn't make sense. Um, and I chose to, for multiple reasons to stay in it and so did my wife. And now we're reaping the benefits of it, right? Because we held on for as long as we did.

So how do you teach people maybe not to quit too early then and just say, yeah, it is, it is hard right now. And, and maybe you do wanna give up, but like you're, you have barely tried.

JAYSON: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you're, you're the perfect example of why, why staying with it is. Can [00:57:00] be incredibly powerful because I think we, we are a lot of people bail too early.

I I just think they do, you know, it gets hard and they're like, okay, I can't stand you, or gosh, we can't even work anything out. See you later. And we tried one, we tried therapy once and it didn't work. It's like, well, okay, apparently you need to try more things, uh, or a different practitioner try

KYLE: longer.

JAYSON: Right, exactly. To go to three. Once I went and saw a trainer, shouldn't I be in shape? Now? How many times did you see him? Once? Yeah, so I, I, again, I think there is, it's like business, like 90% of businesses fail or something. Um, and a lot of people bail when they could just go to a class or get some mentorship and learn how to work through the stuck place in their business.

And it's a similar mentality, right? I didn't lose the weight, so I quit. Um. It's like, I, I think people find that if, especially partnership, if you have two willing people, like [00:58:00] maybe you and your wife who are like, let's do this. Let's agree to stay in the fire here and see where it takes us. That is incredibly potent.

If you got, if like, let's say you said, I wanna stay honey, let's go. And she was like, I can't do it. And maybe, and I'm not sure. And then she just was like half-assing it the whole time. That might not work, right. You need two people to go all in and stay with it.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I wanna ask some questions about like, the role of men and women.

You teach Mutual responsibility. So like a 50 50, uh, system. Uh, in my belief system, the husband bears greater responsibility for the home and, and, and leading it. Do you push back against that approach? I do. Or. Why do you think it not, why do you think it doesn't

JAYSON: work? Well, no, it's not that it doesn't work.

It's just, it's a model. It's, it's one way, right? So it's, it's not that it doesn't work, it works great for some people. Um, and I think a lot of, um, more sort of Judeo-Christian families [00:59:00] are more traditional in that sense. Like I grew up in Utah where there are a lot of Mormons and the, the kind of Mormon model is the man is the leader of the house.

Even though basically it's, it's kind of ironic because I feel like the woman is actually running the house. She's kind of the leader.

KYLE: Yeah.

JAYSON: So what does that really mean? Um, so when guys say, well, I'm the leader of the family, I ask, well, how so, and how's that leadership model work? And are you both agreeing that you're the leader?

Like, if I ever said I was the leader of my family, my wife would punch me in the face. Um. We are co-leaders of our family. It's a collaborative model where we both have a, and it's not 50 50 for me, it's a hundred percent responsibility. Um, so that's 200% total, um, of leading our family, getting to repair, working through hard issues.

We both are responsible for that. Uh, now it might be more traditional in that, like I have traditionally, um, made more money, let's say, but [01:00:00] she's working and she's raised the kids a little more than me, but it's been like 60 40 her to me. Um, there are gender kind of traditional gender roles at times. You know, I take out the trash.

I, I do all the yard work, shit. Um, I handle certain things that she doesn't and vice versa. You know, we both cook, we both clean, we both participate in a lot of things. So is there a leader here? No. For us it's, it's co-leadership.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah, I guess it depends what your definition of leader is, because if, if it's just a, a title that you think you have and now you're owed something, uh, I would say then you're a ruler, right?

Not a leader. But if you're, if you're a leader, then you're actually doing, yeah, doing things. It's like a, it's things you do that make you a leader, not things that you, you know, not a title. But, uh, I think it's especially important in terms of just like when the, there's problems in the marriage that it's the guy's responsibility to call the counselor.

JAYSON: Oh, that's

KYLE: cool. Uhhuh. You know, and, you know, and that he takes [01:01:00] initiative to like, try to make things better and, and doesn't, you know, wait passively for her to do something or just do nothing at all. Um, but to, you know, to especially take active roles and try to make the situation better and, and being a leader on that.

Yeah.

JAYSON: That's

KYLE: cool on that side. Yeah.

JAYSON: That's cool. Yeah, I mean, that would be great in, in more marriages, if men would be the one that raised their hand and said, I got it. I'm gonna go find us a good person. 'cause so many women.

KYLE: Yeah.

JAYSON: I think stereotypically women are leading that conversation to make the relationship better.

Right. Would you say, like, can you explain like, what, what other ways might you be you and your wife agree that you're the leader? Like how does that work?

KYLE: Um, I guess she, she asks, she asks for me to, you know, we, we meet on everything and discuss it and, and I forgot what she wants and, and what I want, stuff like that.

And then, and then it's just, then it's usually my call on what we're gonna do or not. So we're thinking, for example, about moving, uh, to a different place. And so we just, yeah, like, I wanna know, we [01:02:00] work together and all the pros and cons on, on work and personal and this and that. And then ultimately she looks at me and she goes, okay, what are we gonna do?

Uh, um, and, and to make the final call. So it's, it's very much on those kinds of things, but it's how you described it as that you're both a hundred percent responsible. I would agree that that kind of shows, that's kind of happening here as well, where it's not like, uh, you know, you're waiting on the other person to do something or, or, you know, like, that's my job.

This is her job kind of thinking, but more just in the sense of we're both responsible, but ultimately, like the buck stops with me. Yeah.

JAYSON: And would she ever get, have you guys ever experienced this in yourself or anyone else in, in this model where she might, you, you make a call and she's not, she was like, had a different opinion, but she's like, fine, we'll go with your thing.

And then there emerges a resentment.

KYLE: Yeah. That, yeah, I mean, that it has happened. Um, and then we need to talk through it, you know, to be like, Hey, okay, yeah, I, I screwed up. Uh, or, or [01:03:00] it didn't work out. And, and, and then we sort of deal with that. But I think for a long time what happened is that I, um, didn't actually take into account what she wanted or, or liked and stuff like that.

And it was more just driven from selfishness rather than from service. Uh, and, and when my disposition is that way, then I think leadership goes wrong. Yeah.

JAYSON: Amen.

KYLE: Everywhere.

JAYSON: Yeah.

KYLE: Uh, um, um, not just inside the home.

JAYSON: Yeah. That's great. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's just you not being considerate. Right. It's not gonna go well.

KYLE: That's correct. Yeah. I mean, you're leading is like your, you know, I take Jesus' example and he gave the example of when he was with his disciples, uh, the last supper, and he got on his feet and washed their feet and said to them, Hey, I'm the leader here. I'm the greatest. And look what I'm doing. Mm-hmm.

Lead like this. Um, and, and so I think that's, yeah, that's true. Leadership. Yeah. Service.

JAYSON: Yeah. Cool.

KYLE: You've criticized rigid, masculine, and feminine, um, polarity frameworks. How, how would you speak to a [01:04:00] couple who believes, um, specific gender roles are, are biblically mandated? Can your tools still work then with, within a complementarian framework?

Do you, do you, yeah,

JAYSON: so to, to clarify, um, masculine and feminine in the way that the sort of new age movement teaches it is different than gender roles. And they, they try to tease that out, but most people can't tease those things apart. The, the bottom theory kind of goes, the underlying theory is like we both have masculine and feminine qualities in us equally, but men tend to be more holding the more masculine position, and women tend to be holding the more feminine position.

And so that's, that's why people get really confused here. Um, so where I criticize it is more in the, um. Masculine means man, and feminine means woman. And it's like the Masculine's job to lead in the bedroom, um, to take charge and have a direction. And the [01:05:00] feminines job is just to let go and receive his leadership and his direction.

And, and she's the one that's supposed to nurture and he's not nurturing. And, and I'm like, wait, are we talking about gender roles or are we talking about these energies? Like what are we talking about here? Because you can have a very quote, feminine man with a very masculine woman, like a, let's say a guy who's really nurturing and raising the kids and doesn't have a job, and the wife is the breadwinner and kind of ballbuster, and she's out there kicking ass and taking names in her career.

You know, what's wrong with that? Like, who cares? Right? Why does he need to be more masculine, and why does she need to be more feminine if it's working for them? Like, so what? You know, so I, I just think, um, people get really stuck here in shoulding each other and themselves on gender. Like, uh, masculine means.dot, it's like says who,

KYLE: hmm,

JAYSON: where these definitions coming from.

KYLE: Yeah. [01:06:00] I like the should thing that, I think that comes up a lot where people believe they should be doing this or should be doing that because some gurus said so, but it's actually not something that they've decided themselves. It's not like a, a belief system that they fully have, have embraced, but more are parroting.

And that goes, I, I find, goes south fast because it never really lasts either. And it's your own kind of interpretation, variation

JAYSON: of it. Yeah, that's right. And then there's another layer that bothers me for me in this model, which is, let's say you have a man in a traditional marriage, let's say, uh, man, woman marriage, where the guy feels, um, anxious.

That the woman isn't touching him enough and isn't, he's not having sex enough and he's, um, under stress. He wants to talk about it and talk about his feelings and talk about what's going on and where is she and why is she withdrawn. And then she overhears, like getting more and more annoyed because he keeps wanting to talk and she just wants [01:07:00] space and wants to kind of withdraw into her cave.

And this is an, this has nothing to do with gender. This is a, this is an attachment nervous system dynamic that's going on. That com comes completely from how you were raised in the first three years of your life.

KYLE: Yes.

JAYSON: And people don't understand this, right? Yeah. They don't study psychology like I do.

They don't study relationships and they don't know. So they label that man as needy and he shouldn't be so needy. And they label the woman as masculine or avoidant and, you know, problematic. And it's like both of 'em are wrong. And it's like. Right. That's, that's doesn't do anything to help the marriage.

They need to learn, okay, this is what we do under stress when we go into conflict. You retreat and I want to talk about it. Huh? That's really frustrating. How are we gonna deal with this dynamic? And again, nothing to do with gender.

KYLE: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's good. Okay. To close out, if a, if a couple is listening right now and is stuck [01:08:00] in a re recurring conflict that feels hopeless, um, what's, like, what's the first small step they can take?

JAYSON: Admit that to themselves first. Right? Um, indi individually. Like, admit that. And then if your partner is in denial about that or doesn't want to see that truth of yours, you gotta be like, okay, wow, this is gonna be hard to talk about, but you gotta bring it to the partner. If you both admit, Hey, we're kind of stuck, that's, that's gonna be easier.

Um, but if one of you is stuck and the other one is thinks we're fine, that's gonna be a harder conversation to have. 'cause there's gonna be not, you're not having a shared reality there, but your job is to get to a shared reality. And both, again, both people's experience are valid, not right or wrong, just valid.

And then you might, uh, then take it to. Close confidant, a friend, um, a therapist, and say what, you know, this is, this is the truth. Like we gotta, we can't get anywhere if we [01:09:00] don't admit what's going on. Um, and then get help, you know, um, study, read, listen to this podcast, go, go find people that you wanna train with, study with, uh, that can be a guide to help you through it.

KYLE: Yeah. And last question, what's one belief about marriage if cha, that if changed would transform most relationships?

JAYSON: Uh, that marriage can be hard off and on forever, and it doesn't mean you're with the wrong person.

Something like that. Okay.

KYLE: And and and why, why that? Why do you pick that?

JAYSON: Because I think people come into marriage with a lot of fantasies and fairytales about how it's gonna be. 'cause they met the quote right person, or Oh my gosh. Uh, and then the moment it gets hard, they're like, what's wrong? It must be the person.

It must be me. Um, and, and it is like, no, no, no. You chose just the right person to deal with. Now the workshop you're in for [01:10:00] forever. Do you wanna say yes to the workshop like Kyle has here and just stay in the fire and learn? Or do you wanna like point the finger at people and get out of there? I, I just think people don't get that long-term partnership.

Like being a team. Marriage is a team sport, right? And it's, being a team is hard to collaborate forever about everything. Um, and share leadership, share power, um, shared decision making, um, work through hard things like it's, that is not easy, especially given where a lot of us grew up. We didn't have a, maybe a great role model, so.

I think if people could

KYLE: Yeah, yeah.

JAYSON: Just embrace the, suck that, and embrace conflict and embrace like difficulty. I think they would just be a little more relaxed about when it gets hard.

KYLE: Hmm hmm. Thank you very much for these answers. I've, I've really enjoyed our chat. If you wanna work with you, what's the best way that they can do that?

What is the programs that you offer? What, what

JAYSON: things you have? Yeah, so it's, uh, jason gatis.com is kind of the [01:11:00] private coaching side. If you wanna take a course, it's relationship school.com. Those are probably the easiest ways to find what I'm up to.

KYLE: Okay. And what are your different programs? Like what does coaching look like with you?

What is the

JAYSON: resource? Yeah. It's coaching with me is you gotta apply and I, I'm selective about who I work with. I work with couples and individuals mostly. I work with married entrepreneurial dads. Um, either them and their partner or them alone. That's kinda my target guy. Um. And then courses I, I teach, yeah.

Just kind of courses for all of us that could help us become better communicators in our most important relationships. And those, there's short, like 30 day courses and then there's like a nine month course that's super intense. So it's like, you know, how, how much do you wanna go for it? Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. Fair enough.

Okay. Awesome. Well, thanks again for taking the time today. I appreciate it. If, if, uh, the listeners wanna listen, uh, just a reminder, the Jason Gaddis podcast and the author of Getting to Zero. So, um, thank you for your time and your [01:12:00] insights today. It's, uh, it's been, uh, interesting chat and I've, I've enjoyed it and hopefully it, uh, helps.

Yeah.

JAYSON: Thanks Kyle. Thanks for being a, an example of what's possible in a marriage.

KYLE: Yeah, it's, uh, it's amazing. It's, it's a miracle what's happened, uh, in, in, in my world. But yeah, put in the work, it, it pays off. Thanks for listening guys. If you enjoyed this episode, please uh, share, uh, the episode with friends or family, or subscribe to the show.

Leave a comment that's always enjoyable as well. We'll respond to those. Um, but otherwise, I will catch you guys on the next one. Thanks for listening.

Thank you.

JAYSON: You got it, Kyle. Good hanging out with you, man. Great questions. Um, your experience is so cool. I, I hope you keep telling your story over and over.

KYLE: I actually haven't told it in full yet. Um, I've been, I've been hesitating. I've been doing this podcast for three, four years, but I'm just like, Ooh.

It's, it's, uh, it's messy. I was in a psych ward and I was nine. Really abused my parents. There's like, there's [01:13:00] crazy.

JAYSON: Yeah, man, I, I, when you told me your, you know, the brief story last time, I just, I'm so inspired. I mean, pe that's how people. People need to hear stories like yours, you know, they really do. So whether you write a book or tell it on a podcast or whatever, like, and, and of course your wife has to be okay with it and, you know, 'cause the, the intimate couple part of the story with affairs and things, that's, that's intimate stuff.

You know, like

you.

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