Why Every Life Has Value - Briefcase & The Barn EP 91

April 15, 2026

KYLE: [00:00:00] Come back.

You want a coffee? Gary? I'm gonna get a chat of water.

GARY: I have one. Thank you. I can share it with someone too if they want black coffee, because I sure don't need to drink all of it.

You been on podcasts before?

CHAD: I have never been a guest.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: I hosted, I'll be

GARY: Oh, you did? Okay. Yeah,

CHAD: I'm, uh, I'm not as, uh, as you guys are, so I'm a little intimidated.

GARY: Are you more of a person that processes before you think before you speak? Yeah. Yeah. That's a gift.

CHAD: It's a gift in some circumstances.

GARY: Yeah. For being entertaining on a podcast. Not as much. Not not much.

CHAD: Exactly.

GARY: Thankfully, you don't have to regret as many things that come into your mouth as I do. [00:01:00]

CHAD: Right.

GARY: That's the flip side. I had elders meeting some of the elders, like, well, Ken Bink was one of them. He always saw it first. Right. He was just

like, anyways, I got educated. Let's put it that way. Are good. I'm doing well. Yeah. I mean all Yeah.

CHAD: Nice.

GARY: Life's uh, life's insane.

CHAD: It's been a busy time, right?

GARY: It is. Yeah. Stuff going on. Thank you. Yeah.

KYLE: Rolling. Yeah, you're good there. There is enough space there.

CHAD: Yep.

KYLE: Good. Gary,

GARY: no agenda today, right? Just Kurt of Ed's.

What Chad does. Full. Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah. It's all, it's all,

GARY: Chad's got a wealth of knowledge on a lot of topics. Oh no. Yeah. Well

KYLE: good.

GARY: He was saying how he doesn't like to, um. He's just feeling like, uh, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but we're a little quicker on the draw when it comes to the verbal diarrhea.

You're a little more, you think before you speak.

CHAD: Yeah, I think that's called wisdom.

GARY: Yeah. [00:02:00] It's definitely biblical for sure,

CHAD: but not as entertaining. Maybe

GARY: on that note, I'll pray. Heavenly Father, God, uh, Chad just said it on the head, we wanna be entertaining, but, uh, Lord, we wanna honor you in all that we do.

And so I pray that this can be an edifying conversation, that we can just relax, enjoy each other's company and have a great conversation. And that, uh, whoever listens it would be a benefit to those that are listening. And that, yeah, just thought it would be interesting enough. God, we thank you for everything we have and we, uh, yeah, we just thank you for this day.

In Jesus name. Amen.

KYLE: Amen. Amen. Welcome back guys. Another episode of the Briefcase in the Barn, episode 91. Uh, and we got Chad Bruski, is that how you say it?

CHAD: Sure.

KYLE: Joining us

CHAD: little sn Bruski. Bruski.

KYLE: Okay. So you reached out to me a couple weeks ago. I can't remember exactly what the email said, but it was something about a mission organization you work for.

CHAD: Yeah.

KYLE: And, uh, so I was like, oh, I just, you can come on the podcast and talk about it's the best way.

CHAD: That was great. And thanks for having me. This is good. [00:03:00] Um, yeah, I'm with Outreach Canada and, uh, we're doing a big, uh, event called Gospel Alive Day, uh, coming up in June. And, uh, so wanted to, uh, just introduce people to what that is and,

KYLE: okay.

What's Outreach Canada?

CHAD: Outreach Canada is, uh, kind of a small family of ministries. We're all focused on helping the body of Christ live out the gospel. So in a workplace on campus, uh, in our communities. So we have a few different ministries that. Reflect that come alongside the church in resourcing, in, in, sometimes it's just networking and things like that, but all active, all about actively living out the gospel.

So our vision is to see the gospel alive in unimaginable ways and just coming alongside the church and doing that. So gospel alive day is our way of expressing, uh, that churches across the nation communities, the, and the, the impact they're making in communities, small communities to large [00:04:00] communities, are such an important part of how the gospel is alive.

And so it's an invitation for churches to celebrate on the same Sunday and just recognize that the gospel is alive in Canada and why that's important.

KYLE: Right. And how did it get started? The organization?

CHAD: They've been around for about 40 years. Um, came into Canada really looking to do church planting and recognized that a lot of the churches at that time weren't really in a healthy place to do church planting well.

And so they started church planting Canada. Um, I dunno,

KYLE: it was a it's a global organization then?

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah. So we're one of 15 mobilization centers around the world, um, as part of the OC Global Alliance. And so, uh, so we work together with these other 15 mobilization centers, but we serve Canada in our posture and expression.

KYLE: And so, okay, so that came to Canada 40 years ago.

CHAD: Yeah.

KYLE: And so pr like practically, what would be some of the [00:05:00] things you would do with like, with the different, with the different churches or, or, and like, how big is it and what are you, you know, what's the focus?

CHAD: Yeah. So they, they actually, some of, if you're as old as me, you might recognize, um, uh,

KYLE: I'm not as old as you.

I'm, I'm

CHAD: Mike. Yeah, right.

GARY: You're not that old either. So that's, that was a weird,

CHAD: um, uh, expo 86.

GARY: Oh, I remember that. I got the, had the book Child Good book in my home. 'cause my parents went,

KYLE: I was still,

GARY: it's one of my favorite books to look at. 20 my

KYLE: dad's eye.

CHAD: Yeah. So they had a, a, uh, a place there where you could go and learn about Jesus and Outreach Canada actually trained the people in that.

Um, it was a

GARY: brand new organization at the time. It would've been a year old or something like

CHAD: that. Basically. Yeah. So came in and, and helped train that for that big event. And then, uh, started things like, uh, church planting, Canada, uh, transitional leadership. So when churches are going through a time of change of a lead pastor or [00:06:00] things like that, they'll have trained up people to

come.

CHAD: Do people use it and help you?

GARY: Do people use it?

CHAD: So we don't do that anymore.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Uh, because the denominations learned how to do it, they trained up all of these people. The denominations took it on, and then they didn't need Outreach Canada for that anymore. Okay. So today we do, uh, we have workplace chaplains who go into workplaces and, and build gospel informed relationships with, with, uh, employees.

In, in businesses. We have, um, the Moore Network, which takes care of missionary families, both sending them to the field as well as, um. You know, doing kind of third party debriefing and things like that for missionary families, having mentoring networks for the kids and stuff like that. So all kind of coming alongside the body of Christ and, and helping strength.

GARY: Is it a similar organizational like power to change?

CHAD: Yeah, I'd say so. It's

GARY: like, that's what I'm hearing when I'm hearing you talk. I mean, I don't know power to change that [00:07:00] well than I support one of their ministries and I'm just thinking, hey, there's, I wonder if, um, like people talk about donor fatigue.

I don't know if you've experienced that. In your work because you've been involved in nonprofits now for off and on in different Yeah. I mean you, maybe it'd be interesting to actually, if you had a minute, I don't like to share your story a little bit of who you are and even your family. Like you have a pretty unique family, you've had a lot of challenges, you've dealt with a lot of

CHAD: right.

GARY: Heavy stuff and through, I think you've dealt with it very well, you and your wife. So like what does that look like?

KYLE: Or think we should do a full, full furious curious.

GARY: No, I think you should just share, like, make this podcast interesting and share about your family.

CHAD: Alright. So yeah, where do I start with that?

Um,

KYLE: because you just went from donor fatigue to a

CHAD: story. Yeah,

GARY: sorry. That's just how my brain works.

CHAD: Uh,

GARY: probably the spirit. Probably not must talk, meant to talk about donor fatigue.

CHAD: Alright. So I'll try to kind of work that in I, and not just sit here and talk like crazy. But, um, so Sarah and I married 27 years.

We've got five [00:08:00] kids. Uh, our oldest is 22, just turned 22, and Isaac. Was born with cerebral palsy, uh, lives in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. And, um, that changed our trajectory significantly. It changed our lives. Uh, for me personally, huge. Um, I'm a pretty confident guy. I'm a, I feel like I can do pretty much anything I need to do.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: And unfortunately, that's just not true. Um, but I lived that way. And having Isaac and sitting there seeing Sarah, you know, in a hospital bed with, you know, her, her liver was shutting down, kidney's shutting down. Everything's shutting down. She can't have people coming in to visit her. And Isaac was two pounds, two ounces.

GARY: Oh. As of when she had him. Okay.

CHAD: Yeah. And [00:09:00] so I'm sitting there. Completely helpless help. Right. And that, that was significant for me to just see, okay, Lord, I, there's so much that I is outta my control.

KYLE: You were a Christian already at that time.

CHAD: Absolutely. Yeah. I grew up pastor's kid. Um, like you found. Is that a good, so

GARY: you guys both have issues then?

CHAD: You know what? My experience might be a little more positive video or so, I'm not sure, but, um, I, uh,

GARY: be good to hear it.

CHAD: I

GARY: But that, that's a

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, so faith, faith is a spiritual gift of mine. I've ne I've never doubted my faith. That's awesome. I, it's very strong. It always has been. Um, but even

GARY: in that moment, but that's the problem, even in that moment.

CHAD: Yes.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Sarah was, you know, she had her throw it down with, with God over it [00:10:00] and. She had to, she had to hash it out. I mean, she was just screaming at 'em.

GARY: That's awesome.

CHAD: And I wasn't, and that was hard for us 'cause we were in different places and we often are, we process things very differently. And, and sometimes she wants to feel things the way she, she wants me to feel things the way she does and, and I don't.

And so we worked through that and we figured that out. But in that moment, for me it was, um, it, it, it's a problem when your faith is so strong because you don't rely on the Lord the way you need to. Right. You

KYLE: then it, that

CHAD: then it, you have such a confidence. That seems

GARY: like a paradox though. Comment you just said there.

KYLE: That means the faith in yourself versus the Lord if you

CHAD: Right. But I just, it it's a, um, I know he is. Got it. I know it's good. I don't need to actually check in and walk with.

GARY: Okay, interesting.

CHAD: And abide in him the way I [00:11:00] need to

GARY: as opposed to when you're broken.

CHAD: I feel like I can, I can carry it and I'll check in when I need to, but he's, but I'm good.

He's good. I'm good. We're good. Um,

GARY: interesting.

CHAD: And that's, that's the downside of it. So having Isaac really brought that to the surface for me.

GARY: Did you know before he was born that he had seen No. You had no clue that he was gonna be handicapped in a wheelchair?

CHAD: No, we, uh, Sarah had preeclampsia and it came on very quickly.

So I was actually, I was a sales rep at the time, I was out of town. And, uh, she went to selling

GARY: medical equipment,

CHAD: uh, selling pharmaceutical at that time. Pharmaceuticals.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Um, and, uh, yeah, I got, she said, I'm going to the doctor. I've got this terrible headache. It's been coming on and putting on water weight.

My ankles are huge, you know, all of this. And so, so she went to the doctor's clinic and, and they. She called me and said, you better come in. We went to [00:12:00] emergency and, and, uh, she's there. Everything's going fine. She feels fine, no problem. But we knew her blood pressure was way over, like just crazy. And uh, and uh, they um, they sort of said, okay, well we're gonna, here's, here's the plan.

Um, basically we're gonna give you steroids to try and get the lungs developed as fast as possible. Best case scenario, you're gonna give birth tomorrow. Uh, but worst case, were a couple hours away from, and it was worst case. We, she, uh, she had a C-section. How old would you have been that day? How old was I?

Uh, 22 years ago. About 30. Yeah. So,

GARY: and how far along was she?

CHAD: Sorry? She was 26 weeks.

GARY: Oh wow.

CHAD: Yeah. Wow. So

GARY: very early.

CHAD: So yeah, he was two pounds, two ounces. Um, [00:13:00] yeah. Crazy.

GARY: With cerebral palsy.

CHAD: Yeah. So

GARY: when did you find that out? Right away.

CHAD: No, no, they won't tell you. They won't diagnose it. Um,

GARY: when

CHAD: did you know?

So we were in neonatal for 70 days and I think we were probably 50 some days in. And

GARY: are you worried that Oh, keep up. Gat

CHAD: You're good. Sorry.

GARY: You're good. As you were,

CHAD: um, we were both 50 some days in Okay. Before they sat us down and said, okay, there's gonna be some challenges.

GARY: The cameras on.

KYLE: Yeah. Okay. The camera's off.

GARY: Okay. I'm just thinking you're panicking.

KYLE: No, I just got a notepad. 'cause I got things I want to say, but I But

GARY: you don't want interrupt.

KYLE: Yeah.

GARY: Which normally with me, he just interrupts. So this is sanctification for him taking notes. He never takes notes with me. Just cuts me off. That's fair.

CHAD: Um, so yeah, so that was huge.

And then, uh. We continued on, we, uh, moved out to Chillowak because, um, I was working for Johnson and Johnson at the time. They saw it as a family issue, so [00:14:00] they moved us out to the coast where our family was. And because we were in Regina, Saskatchewan at the time. Oh wow. So we were living there. That's when, when we had Isaac.

Um, and, uh, yeah, continued to, uh, we had two more biological children. Um, sorry, uh, I was a pharmaceutical rep, uh, then moved into medical devices. Um, and uh, we just, yeah, we were. Do in life. Um, kids were growing up, obviously Isaac, we were learning lots, taking care of him. And then, uh,

KYLE: and how functional is Isaac now?

Like can you communicate with him or like

CHAD: Yeah. Isaac's really social. He's a, um, you love being around him. He's, he's got a, a spark, um, and, uh, he loves to communicate. His favorite thing is relationships. And

KYLE: so you can talk,

CHAD: um, yep. Uh, you, you, you might have a hard time [00:15:00] understanding them. Yeah. Uh, we don't.

But that just comes with time. Um, but, uh, yeah, but as far as, I mean he needs help with feeding, eating, dressing, everything. He really has very little physical function, uh, ability and, uh, and then cognitively declined as well. So, um,

KYLE: do you, you ever, like, we live in a death culture now in Canada with like, not valuing life Yeah.

You know, at, at all stages. Um, ha Having someone that's, um, disabled, one of your own kids, uh, what would you say to people that would say like, it's, you should, uh, abort a baby when they're in that condition? 'cause it's not loving to put them into this world and deal with the suffering and things like that.

Like your firsthand experience.

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah, they talked to us about that even then.

KYLE: Oh,

CHAD: wow. Wow. And so it was never, so,

KYLE: so, so you've gone to the hospital and before the baby was born they [00:16:00] were already, wow.

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah. It was an option on the table. It was, it was something we, we could decide. Choose.

KYLE: Okay.

CHAD: Um, it wasn't even a thought for us, obviously, just with our faith and where we were at.

Um, you know, it's an interesting, I'll tell you a story about being, uh, at the mall with Isaac. Our family's there, we're having, we're in the food court, and, uh, a lady came up and asked if she could pray for our family. And, uh,

GARY: when was this? Many, many years ago. Like,

CHAD: uh, I'm gonna say 10 years ago.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Maybe.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: And, uh, yeah, we're sure, you know, wonderful. Lovely. And, uh, she prays for our family and she prays for healing for Isaac. And Sarah's much more wise than I am. She's, she, it, it, it affected her [00:17:00] more than it did me in the moment. But as we kind of thought about it after and discussed it, we said, you know, she never asked Isaac if he wanted to be healed.

She never asked us if we wanted him to be healed. And it was interesting for us to process that because we have seen Isaac reach people for Jesus in a way that we never could and open doors for our family to share about who Jesus is in ways that we, we couldn't without him. And it's been really interesting to journey that.

So. Of course there's pieces of that where we would love for Isaac to experience things in different ways that he can't. And we talk about that with him. And at his cognitive [00:18:00] level. There's, there's a, you know, certain piece of that, that you mourn that, and we certainly have mourned all of those things, but we wouldn't really have it any other way.

We, we know that Isaac will have a very different experience in heaven, but here in the here and now, as much as it's hard for him to experience that and live with that, and as much as it's lots for us to do and and stuff as a family, there's an amazing testimony that Isaac has that is special and unique and.

He blesses people in ways that we just, we don't, 'cause we just don't have the perspective on life the way he does. And, and so it's beautiful to watch. And [00:19:00] so when I look at value, I mean, Isaac, we called him the million dollar baby when we had him 'cause we were in there for 70 days. All the machines, everything was staffed, right?

Like it's incredible the amount of money that would've been spent to keep him alive and keep him going and thriving. And, and, and since then, all the supports and stuff

GARY: spent beautiful watching even. Yeah,

CHAD: yeah, yeah. But so he's the value you, you gotta look at, you know, how are you, how are you determining that he's got amazing value to so many people.

You walk around town and you. You mention Isaac and, oh, he's in a wheelchair. He is. And people know Isaac. They know who he is, and they, he touches people in ways that he's incredible. So

GARY: interesting.

CHAD: So yeah, we have an interesting perspective on it. I certainly, um, I know [00:20:00] what Isaac brings to the table.

KYLE: Yeah.

GARY: Did you land at our church when you first came to Chillax? Pretty much. Essentially.

CHAD: Pretty much.

GARY: Because it feels like you've been there ever since I've been there. Yeah. 20 years. And you would've, like, you had an impact on us even early on, just 'cause obviously Yeah. Isaac was there. Yeah. Remember him and remember your family and then being on staff and just a journey.

Right. So

CHAD: yeah, we looked around a little bit. Um,

GARY: did you go church shopping?

CHAD: Yeah. Uhoh. But

KYLE: Jealous Sip will not be happy.

CHAD: Yeah. I mean, we, we were new to town, so Yeah. We visited a few different churches and, uh, yeah, it was, it really was how people came alongside.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Us as a family

GARY: because there again, that experience would be unique with a child that's handicapped and how people view you and how people, yeah, how, how they engage

CHAD: you.

You know what's really incredible is our church in Regina. So when we had Isaac, sorry, I'm, I'm just taking

You're

GARY: good. You're good. You're good. You're what the show is for a guy that didn't do the, that wasn't as impulsive speakers. So that's, you're doing pretty good.

CHAD: Our church in Regina, [00:21:00] uh, when Isaac was born, obviously they walked alongside this with us.

It was incredible. Um, you know, my company moved us out here to be close to family. Honestly, a big part of our family and community. We left behind in Regina at the church. So at, yeah. Yeah. They were so amazing.

GARY: That's awesome.

CHAD: But the incredible thing was they, they took that experience with Isaac in a wheelchair, looked around and, and saw us like lugging Isaac's equipment upstairs and different things like that.

And they went. Wait a minute. We have nobody else in here that's in a wheelchair that's got special needs. We are not equipped, we're not ready. We don't, we are not a place where this community can come.

GARY: God wouldn't even bring someone here. Right. 'cause literally they couldn't get in the door.

CHAD: Right.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: So they, as a church, they, they sent staff to learn how to, how to come alongside, how to, they [00:22:00] they did construction, changed a bunch of stuff in the church, ramps everything to be ready for the next family that would need to come and be there. And today they have an an extra service that is just for. The special needs community

GARY: In Regina?

CHAD: In Regina. Yeah. That is

GARY: awesome.

CHAD: People from all over the city come and they celebrate weekly and it's an, it's just one of their services that they do.

KYLE: Just that alone proves like the value that Isaac brings in Absolutely. What people would lose out on if they terminate

GARY: something that the community we grew up in did it really well too.

KYLE: Mm-hmm.

GARY: Like even the school in particular, I would say has probably one of the best special needs programs. I mean, my brother was born without eyes, he's blind.

KYLE: Mm-hmm.

GARY: I was like metaphorically blind. He was physically blind, unfortunately. Um, and it was just interesting how like, even in hindsight now, just starting to really process as an adult thinking man.

And they do it still. Like they just care for, so it's pretty, I think in a lot of ways. Obviously [00:23:00] the people have a lot of areas to grow in, in that sense, but

CHAD: yeah.

GARY: So tell us about the rest of your family or do you have to interject? I just,

KYLE: go ahead. I was gonna ask the same question 'cause you said you had, uh, two of your own, two more biological kids.

CHAD: Yep. And, uh, yeah. And then we, um, we decided to adopt in, um, what was it, nine years ago? So, so yeah, we have three biological kids. We, uh, we went through a journey, uh, really looking at what the Lord would have for us. Um, that's when I made a shift to more ministry. Um, but we didn't know what ministry was gonna look like.

So Sarah and I walked this journey of really being open-handed before the Lord. What does, what does this look like? We think maybe it's full-time ministry, but weren't sure what it was. And, um, I ended up going into ministry, but it really was me. I, I ended up at the church for two years as the executive [00:24:00] pastor helping through the transition, um, of leadership there.

That's essential. Yeah. Yeah. So when Matt came in, I was executive pastor and, um, and then. I moved on to another organization, but it was really me doing ministry. Uh, Sarah obviously has done ministry as a lay leader for a long time, but then we were at this point of, okay, if it's not, if we're not going somewhere for ministry, what does that look like for us?

And so we, um, Sarah had read, uh, David Platt's book Radical and, uh, wanted me to read it. And, and in that we were challenged that the church needed to have an active role in adoption. And, and, uh, so we had, you know, taking a role at the church and stuff. I took a significant pay cut. And so we had had international students in the house and we'd, it was a bit of a testing of how our kids, how are our kids gonna do with other kids in their space and stuff like that.

And so [00:25:00] coming out of that, we, we decided, okay, we, we need to look at this. So we went through a discernment process of, of whether adoption was. Something we needed to do ourselves, or whether we just needed to support families who were adopting. But we, we were convicted that we needed to have an active role, and we determined that, yeah, we, we had space in our home.

We were ignorant and thought we were good parents at the time. And, uh,

GARY: you were and you still are.

CHAD: Yeah, well, uh, some days. Um, but, uh, so then we went through that journey. It was about nine months of, of kind of, uh, learning. We adopted, uh, locally through the, the local, uh, um, in, uh,

GARY: government agency, ministry of children and families.

Yeah.

CHAD: Yeah. Thank you. Ministry.

GARY: Yeah.

CHAD: Um, and, uh, and knew because we had Isaac, because we had experience with neurodiversity, things like that, that we'd probably be, [00:26:00] be pretty, uh, you. Uh, attractive as a family, and we were, we were willing to take, uh, siblings. And so, uh, it was, it was pretty much exactly a year from the time we started the courses and stuff to when Malcolm and Jasa came and joined

GARY: us.

It was very quick.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: Now it's fascinating. You said something that most people don't understand it, and actually, well, we just had an adoption foster kind of little conference at our church, which was beautiful. You were in a different session. I think you were speaking about supporting adoptive parents, which

KYLE: is that, is that content online?

Can people go listen to it?

GARY: Do you know? I don't know if the breakouts are, maybe the main session was,

KYLE: I don't think the breakouts

GARY: are. Yeah. I mean, I really appreciated the main session. I mean, it was more of a sermon than a,

KYLE: we'll see if I can link it in the description. Yeah,

GARY: yeah. Um, but it was interesting how, um, many, many people in the journey do not know how open handed they need to be.

KYLE: Mm-hmm.

GARY: So, like, I always struggle, and I don't know if you struggle with it as an adoptive parent, but I always struggle with like on one hand as Christians just feeling that call. [00:27:00] What does that look like? It obviously doesn't mean everybody's supposed to go adopt children. Obviously not.

KYLE: No. But even to that note, like if I would think of all the families in church that should adopt my mind wouldn't have gone to your family first.

Thanks Kyle. You're dealing, you're dealing with, uh, you know, a son that has say palsy and, and already is dealing with a lot,

GARY: so just let me just say something. Every family. If they're in the head space, thinks that they're the family that isn't supposed to, they all think they have some reason they might not have a child in the wheelchair, but they might think, Hey, we have five kids already.

That's enough. Sure.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: Hey, we have three or two and we're not doing that. Well, hey, our marriage is hard money. Like, I mean, I guess I would flip it around and say, Hey, you just, if you can open up your hands enough to say, God, teach me. Um, but it's interesting on the flip side of that, 'cause I always hold that tension in one hand when I'm talking to people feeling like, man, like do I need to adopt more kids?

I don't feel like we can, you know, so hey, you should, or you should at least struggle with, wrestle with this. Like living that tension. On the other hand, people that do do it often have no clue what they're getting into. [00:28:00] Like, I mean, and I'm sure you know people that social workers would say that too.

They don't realize, like, you know, when you talked about, hey, like we would be open to siblings or neurodivergent children that are struggling with neuro divergent issues. Most kids that are, you're adopting, like they have a lot of trauma and they're obviously beautiful kids and no different than your son with his challenges.

Like we're all creating God's image or whatever that look, you know, however that looks. And, and we, but you are signing up for something different than obviously your own. And you would be very qualified to speak on that. Like, you probably don't wanna say too much on here, but just the difference between your biological children and what that journey is.

It's different, right?

CHAD: Yeah. We

GARY: different parenting.

CHAD: We parent our, our biological children very differently than we, we parent our,

GARY: yeah.

CHAD: Our, uh, adopted children and, uh, we didn't at the beginning.

GARY: Okay. And, okay.

KYLE: What do you mean different?

GARY: Yeah. Are you willing to share what that looks like? Because it's a, maybe that's too much, but I mean, I, I kind of know your story and it's a really special, like, it's, it's been a,

CHAD: yeah.

Um, how do I, [00:29:00] how do I say it? Um, so I said I was ignorant thinking that we were good parents, and I really mean that because we. You know, you, you just learn how to do it. Nobody gives you a playbook on how to be a parent. You figure it out as you go and you, you learn just different pieces of, um, currency with your kids, right?

And, and discipline and, and stuff like that. You walk alongside you. Uh, this is gonna sound really terrible.

GARY: Oh, just say it. Just say it. Just say it.

CHAD: You see yourself in your children. You see pieces of, yeah.

GARY: Makes sense

CHAD: of your own personality or your spouse's personality, and you've learned how to, how to deal with that.

You've got experience that you can bring to the table to go, okay, I need to come alongside this, in this way or that way. And it's gonna be okay [00:30:00] because they're gonna, you know, I know that they're gonna figure this out in this way or whatever. And you, you lean in and you, you apply the, the, the pressure, the pieces and things like that to help your children grow and thrive.

And it felt like with our adopted kids, there were like, it was, there was no currency that worked. There was nothing that they felt,

KYLE: how old were they

CHAD: compelled? They were four and five when they came to live to, to join our family. And, um, yeah, you, you would, because there is neurodiversity there, there's um, there are just some pieces that don't, that, that are, that are different.

And so when we would try certain disciplines and things like that. They were threats. They were, they, [00:31:00] they, you know, you get the fight or flight stuff happening with trauma and stuff, which most of the kids coming out of, you know, out of foster care and things like that have, and so you would trigger these fight or flight things without even realizing it.

And you, you think you're applying pressure in, in a disciplinary way and they're seeing it as a threat and it, it just blows up. And then you're, you're having, you, I experience it. Sarah's much better than me, but I experience it as disrespect a lot of the time. The, the, you know, I, I'm, I'm not gonna do what you're asking me to do, or I'm not gonna respond, or I just don't care that I, I, I interpret it as, I just don't care.

GARY: Very triggering for you.

CHAD: Very triggering for me, extremely triggering for me.

GARY: Do you

CHAD: recognize it?

GARY: Oh yeah. This is a, this is fascinating.

CHAD: And so this has been a real journey for me personally. Again, that pride thing, [00:32:00] right? I've got it. I can do things.

GARY: I'm your dad.

CHAD: Yeah, yeah. And, and I would never, you know, never allow that with

GARY: your bio kids.

CHAD: My bio kids, yeah. And they wouldn't,

GARY: they wouldn't even try

CHAD: it. It take once, they wouldn't try it, they wouldn't even

GARY: try it

CHAD: once it was done. And that's just not the case. And I am, you know, for me it's been, uh, it's just convicting because frankly, it's me. It's me now. It's me always with my relationship with the Lord, because I'm, I'm constantly.

Just continuing to do the same things over and over. The same sin over and over that. And, and that's how my adoptive kids Grace are, they keep doing the same things over and over and I can't seem to get them to, to [00:33:00] change course. And I look and I go, man, oh man, I'm the same way with the Lord. I,

GARY: mm-hmm.

CHAD: I know better, but I don't, I still choose myself.

And so, so that's the journey. I'm not, we're not, I'm not figuring it out. I'm trying. But

GARY: yeah, it is interesting 'cause it's in our Christian community and that kind of ties into what I was saying about just how you, you know, the expectation even of what you're getting when you adopt. Right. But like I read a book and I haven't read a lot of books, Marie's read literally hundreds of books about adoption of fostering.

But I have read a handful and one of 'em I read in 2018 when Hannah was two years old and her son was four. And you know, we hadn't adopted any kids through the ministry yet. And we're just starting the fostering journey. And it was a book by Christian Barry called Born Broken. And we were on a holiday and I just wept reading it.

And it was just, all of a sudden the dots were connected of like the hurt that is in the kids' hearts and like maybe we had fostered one time and just kind of put the pieces together of like. And I mean, Kyle can identify this growing [00:34:00] up in a biological home, having trauma and hurt. And Me too, even though, you know, very like arguably great home, really, you know, but just the, just stuff happens in life and you think, man, you have these children with this trauma.

And it's fascinating 'cause it's like we always say in our home too, like there's still consequence, there's always consequence. Sure. So there's complete grace and forgiveness if you repent. With the Lord, but there's always still consequence. And so we're always in that tension of, hey, you gotta have consequences for your kid.

And I mean, I don't know how you deal with that with your kids are a few years ahead of us, I think. 'cause your oldest would, your oldest adopted child would be what, 13 or 14? 14. So I mean teenager.

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah.

GARY: Throw all that in the midst. Throw all that in there. And I, and I've always struggled too as an adoptive parent, 'cause we don't have bio kids.

So there again, you'd be better qualified to comment. 'cause even bio kids just have a lot of challenges.

CHAD: Mm-hmm.

GARY: So I always say to Marie, we wanna be careful that, hey, it's not pitting one against the other. Sure. It's only gaining, it's only about understanding one another and realizing that, hey, obviously all parenting is difficult.

I mean, we meet people all the time with a handful of kids that are struggling. It's just difficult. [00:35:00] Right. Yeah. Um, but also people just realizing that in our house and you can see it. 'cause in our, when we sit at church, our, I'm not setting the, and rightly or wrongly, maybe I'm wrong, I'm not even saying I'm right.

But I just don't feel like the expectation. Like I have to pick where my battles, the, the battles I'm gonna win are, and like how the kid sits or whether he sits or stands when he is supposed to. I'm just not gonna fight that fight. Right. Like I want you to be in church most of the time. Ideally listening.

KYLE: Yeah.

GARY: And even that's gonna look different than a child like I was where it's just you're sitting there and you're looking in your, so those, I don't know if you have that journey in every, I feel like being judged. I'm judged all the time. Maybe even just my own condemnation of having this inner expectation of how I should be parenting.

Is that what you think it is, Kyle? How do you feel about, you have that where you feel like, oh man, how are people viewing me right now?

CHAD: No, I think I buried that at some point

GARY: long time ago. Okay. Good for you. I

CHAD: think I did.

GARY: That's awesome.

CHAD: I think I did okay. That that doesn't. Um,

GARY: I don't live in perpetual fear and paranoia like some people do.

I'm just saying I'm definitely aware [00:36:00] of, I'm, I'm wrestling it in my heart of should I care about this and lay down the law. Now

KYLE: I wonder how much of it is just how we grew up and you have to sit still in church and I can't move at all, and that is being carried over. And maybe that wasn't your experience in church growing up because that's what Well,

GARY: dad was preaching, so he is looking at him the whole time, right?

CHAD: yeah.

KYLE: My mom

CHAD: had the claw.

GARY: The claw.

CHAD: Um, no, I, I, I do,

I don't know. I, I do have the piece of, I don't want my children to be a distraction for others. Yeah. And things like that. Yeah. I want them to be able to have a worshipful experience. So I, I, I carry a fairly heavy hand that way in the sense of, look guys, we're here for a. A reason and that's to

GARY: yeah.

CHAD: To worship.

And so that's what we're focused on right now. That's what we're gonna do. And so, um, so I do

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Still carry that. It's not [00:37:00] for

GARY: what other people think, obviously, what other

CHAD: people think.

GARY: Now, you, you parent way more gentle now than you would've when you first adopted, right? Yes. With your adopted kids. Is that fair to say?

CHAD: Yes.

GARY: Okay. So that has been a journey for you? That has been

CHAD: Absolutely.

GARY: Okay. Yeah. That's cool.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: That's humbling.

CHAD: The brokenness is the big part of it. I didn't get it.

GARY: You just figured, hey, if you would just listen and we all did the same things here, we'd be okay.

CHAD: Yeah, absolutely.

KYLE: So we started this conversation with saying you, before Isaac was born, you had a really strong faith.

CHAD: Yeah.

KYLE: And, and

CHAD: I

KYLE: still

CHAD: do, but Yes.

KYLE: Yeah. Okay. So

GARY: it's not waning Kyle, it's not waning.

KYLE: So I'm wondering how, how has your faith been affected, or how would you, how would you word that in, in saying that you're, like, you're, you said it's broken, uh, um, now that's what, what you needed to learn. Like what, what changed or what have you learned?

Is it made you appreciate Grace Moore? Like

CHAD: Yes. Yes, it, it has definitely made me understand grace more and understand, um, [00:38:00] just how, how sin can separate us from, from the Lord, uh, in, in relationship. Um, some of those, those that brokenness there can, can really be a challenge in relationship. I, I, I have to see, sometimes I have to see the brokenness instead of feeling disrespected as, as the person, it's not, they're not trying to disrespect me.

That's not where it's at. It's, it's an inability to actually get there,

GARY: connect him,

CHAD: and, and so it's really, that's, that's my, and I'm still. Growing in that I still don't, Sarah's much better at it than I am.

GARY: Who has more attachment with your adopted children? You or your wife?

CHAD: Me or my wife?

GARY: Yeah. Who's he?

Who has attached like, you know, Sarah? Such a big part of [00:39:00] adopting. It's just the connecting and feeling. Sarah. We've had some wild conversations and journeys in our house with our kids that, I mean, I wouldn't even share per se, but just this idea of like, hey, it's very different than when someone, when when we hear the stories of, especially with the older kids coming in, which yours is even more than us, but just,

CHAD: yeah.

GARY: Okay, so Sarah's had just felt like a more connected

CHAD: Yeah, but I don't know if that's necessarily, uh, I think she's more connected with our biological children too.

GARY: Okay. Interesting. Interesting.

CHAD: Right. Like I think,

GARY: okay,

CHAD: if I, we just, other conversations we've been having is as we look at our kids moving on in their lives.

I'm learning about Sarah even today as far as how she processes that stuff and where she sees us in the lives of our children as they, as they take the next steps. Okay. And I see it differently. So

GARY: are you more pragmatic?

CHAD: I think so.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Yeah, I think so. [00:40:00] Um, and I'm learning about myself in that, you know, it's, it's all new experiences, so I don't know what it's like to have a child all of a sudden move off and, and get married or whatever.

Right. And it's like, how do I, what do I expect from that? What am I looking at with that? So

GARY: interesting.

KYLE: What, before we, uh, started recording and I shared with you that it, it made me somewhat uncomfortable when you were sharing that you had, uh, adopted kids and, um. Isaac as well, because it, I think, convicts me to a certain degree about like my own desire for comfort in my own home.

And the idea of having adopted kids would be really, really hard and challenging. Uh, like, and I think there's a lot of people in that position, and Gary's talked about it often here on the show, but what would your take be, like, what would you, how would you challenge me and, and any listener listening to when it comes to adoption and, and, uh, and basic giving up your life.

'cause that's, you're giving up your comforts. Like, you must have known that when you were considering adopting [00:41:00] to be like, Hey, this is not, this isn't gonna make my life easier.

CHAD: Yeah. Um, probably didn't realize it the way I, you know,

GARY: you realize it now.

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, uh, uh, I mean, there's such a need.

There's, there's such a need, you know, as we were, uh, somewhere along the way. I was challenged, you know, if, if the church is gonna ask women to have these children and not abort them, then we better be ready to

KYLE: love

CHAD: them, to step up and love them and do what we need to do to take care of them. And so I feel I'm a strong advocate for adoption and I feel very strongly that the church has to have a, a leading role in that.

GARY: And they do, to be fair,

CHAD: yes

GARY: they do.

CHAD: Yes. Um, [00:42:00] but more still

weak.

CHAD: Still

GARY: weak, yeah.

CHAD: At the ground level.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Um, I, I think there can be better understanding and better support. You know, we have, how do I say it? Um, there's a lot of Christians in, in, we'll say Canada, whatever. Who, uh, sometimes I call it an army, right of, of, of believers who understand who Jesus is and understand the gospel.

And, and I don't think as large a percentage are actively living out the gospel as we could have really, really applying it in our lives in, in every day in what we're doing. And I shared that's kind of what Outreach Canada is about. Um, this is an area where I think, like Gary said, not, not every [00:43:00] family needs to adopt children.

That's not practical. It's not healthy, it's not, it's not the answer, but, but being educated and being recognizing, so if the family is, is embarrassing, if the family is. You know, wild and not controlled, unhinged and stuff like that. Unhinged that, that there's a, there's grace in that. There's an understanding and there's a, an active, how do we come alongside, what can we do to support this family?

And adoption isn't the only place way to do it. Totally. There's all kind, there's all kinds of needs, but, uh, you know, if I'm critical and sometimes I am, um, I just think sometimes it's

GARY: not a fruit of the spirit. Ed. I know you want it to be, but it's

CHAD: not. I know it's not. Um, yeah, there's, there's s lots of [00:44:00] people who don't

GARY: No, it's not either.

KYLE: Oh, that's right.

GARY: It's not either Kyle. Shoot, honesty, brutal honesty. We have the combo here.

CHAD: There you go. Um, there are ways that, that the church, um, the body of Christ can, can lean in and, and care for some of these areas that we, we could do better than we do at times.

GARY: I find it interesting listening to you share now about your story?

Uh, very succinctly, really quite briefly, but like all the things that, and I don't like, it's been really my experience. I have like a few things in my life that have been very, very challenging. Um, and all probably the most sanctifying experiences like being an elder at church and, um, adopting children, um, and just being an elder through COVID, I think.

But just in general. Yeah, like wearing that mantle and not feeling qualified in any way, feeling complete fraud sometimes. And so it's interesting even listening to you talk and I don't think my faith is anything like her faith. I not, not to [00:45:00] compare per se, but I just don't, have never felt that assurance.

And again, I've just wrestled with a lot of those thoughts of unworthiness and, and even like, but I do think. Christians wall on one hand probably should never doubt the assurance of their salvation because that's from God and we, we can trust him. We are supposed to also be in a state of perpetual repentance, which is what, when you say like, Hey, realizing your sin, I think that's like we are gonna be way less critical and way less judgmental.

And even with our own children, but with everybody, when we are spending time just reflecting on our own heart, right? And so I think that in our culture is lacking, like we're perpetually looking at other people judging. Everything's like coming in clips and reels and commenting and seeing what people are saying when like that's all just noise.

Like really, it's about, Hey, when I feel like. Crushed by my own, the way to my own sin and come to God. And he offers me full forgiveness, which he does if I repent. And then to say, Hey, how does that look like as a Christian? Well I'm not called the comfort. And like I would say that comfort's one of the main, like, I dunno what your experience [00:46:00] has been in your ministries you're in, but like people protect, the reason they protect their pocketbook is 'cause their pocket, their, their checkbook is their comfort level.

Right. It they're idol golden. It's their idol, it's their gold. Yeah. And just comfort even, not even the money piece, just like time. Like to think that like, you know, on any given Saturday or weekday even, or nighttime, Hey, I'm gonna be going to counseling with my child, or I'm gonna be doing this play therapy, or I'm gonna be going, like in our case, we do a lot of visits, right?

And there's a lot of trauma attached around visits. We're still doing visits. Yeah. And it's messy and it's hard to even talk about. And our kids like our little, yeah. It's just a journey, right? It's such a mess. There's. Often Marie and I often say, and I dunno if this is right, but I always feel like, man, if I really process what we were doing, I'd be a real mess.

But it's also just, hey, people have hard lives all over and ours is not that hard compared to a lot of people. So it's just like, hey, just do the right thing. Try or try to do the right thing. Just take the right steps. And I always like tongue in cheek, like, life on earth is short and it is, it's a mist.

So like, you know, what are we living for? Right? And I think like it's fascinating hearing you talk about even [00:47:00] that journey with your son and then never trading for anything. And that is the common refrain you hear from anybody is challenging. And that's really challenging. And there's a lot of stories like that that we hear in our, in our walk with people.

Like it's messy. And so it's pretty, uh, pretty interesting that you would, the way you framed your journey with Isaac is really special, even as someone that's watched your family now for 15 years and hasn't always been easy and even adopting has been a real journey, right?

CHAD: Absolutely.

GARY: Could you share one piece?

I'm thinking of. Because it relates to my marriage and I've shared about it a bit on here. Probably not that well, but like how are you walking? 'cause it sounds like you're still doing it with your wife. You has been married a long time. Mm-hmm. How are you, how does that process look of you trying to get on the same page when you're obviously not always in or you view things very differently and how you process things.

What is that like? 'cause I've had a lot of talks with guys even in their fifties lately and even older that are just sorting that out even now, that have just started to kind of process that. Like, what does that look like for you guys? If you want like

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: Could share candidly about that.

CHAD: Yeah. Uh, [00:48:00] so I'm blessed, uh, with, with a wife that lives life out on,

GARY: she's a getter, Donner.

That's my perception of, of your wife. Absolutely. She has got a lot of

CHAD: horsepower. Life is just out there for everyone to figure out. And, and it's funny as my kids get older and start to engage with that more how. How it even takes on a life of its own, because the conversations and stuff that come out of that from their perspective, um, challenge us too as, as a married couple.

And, you know, they start to see behind the, behind the, the veil at times of how you've sort of managed in front of your children. Well, now they're at a point where they're like, wait a minute,

GARY: this is not adding up.

CHAD: So it's really interesting, you know, I shared the, some of the conversations of the next phase and what that looks like and how we are processing that differently.

[00:49:00] Um, Sarah and I are, uh, you know, when we went into the adoption thing, because we, I don't know, having Isaac really, it, it, it meant we're, we're in this together. Like there's

KYLE: prepared you to a certain degree.

CHAD: Oh yeah. Like it, it really galvanized us. Keep going in the sense of. This is, we're not, we can't do this on our own.

We, um, and so, so really doing that together and really figuring out how we're going to use our strengths individually to, to, um, to be successful in parenting him well and, and caring for him and, and all of that stuff. Um, I think we still do that today. We, when we went to adopt, we really gave each other permission, either of us to just [00:50:00] throw our hands up and say, Nope, stop.

And that was critical for us because we do process things differently.

KYLE: That was a conversation you guys had with each other.

CHAD: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Either of us has permission to just stop at any point. No questions. You know, early on I talked about us going into ministry. Um, we had conversations because I was a pastor's kid and my brothers were both pastors.

Um, Sarah was really clear for me with me when we got married. I don't see myself as a pastor's wife. And so we had to deal with that early on, and I had to come to terms with, okay, that's, that's just not something I'm going to consider. Um, not that I was looking at doing it necessarily, but I, but it was always something I, I knew I had skillset and stuff that could serve that way, but, um,

KYLE: how, how do you, 'cause people could say that same sentence when it comes to [00:51:00] adoption.

Like, I don't just see, I don't see myself as an adoptive parent. Um, but it's not necess, it's not necessarily how we see ourselves, but what God has called us to

CHAD: True. Um, so. So I would say Sarah along the way has grown and recognized that it's not a role, per se, that is the defining thing. It's, it's, or the skillset involved.

So I did end up becoming a pastor and she was a pastor's wife for a time. And there was that willingness to say, okay, Lord, I, I am who I am and I'm gonna trust you in this. And that's just growth. Um, in the same way with adoption. Yeah. We had to give each other permission to say, stop, um, at, at any point until we, [00:52:00] we adopt it.

And so we had that conversation. Um. Yeah, I did that answer

KYLE: going, you said when Isaac was initially born, your wife had a harder time with it Yeah. Than, than you did. Yeah. Um, and like ground her down. Did you later on have those moments where you, you got to an end to yourself or just like how hard the situation was and you had to wrestle with God?

Uh, and, and, um, yeah, 'cause I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm imagining that with the adoptive kids or with Isaac or maybe your other kids, um, it's not like sometimes when kids are healthy and they can't still be a huge challenge. Yep. So, um, yeah. You, or were you able just to always hold on to your faith and, and not really, 'cause I've had my own experience and it's not anything like your story, but it was just like, I can't, I can't do this.

Like I'm done. Uh, I, I, I am, I can't, I can't do this. God, and I'm just curious how

CHAD: No, and that's why I call it a spiritual gift. 'cause I, I just [00:53:00] don't. Um, so what I didn't articulate well before is it is it, it makes me lazy at times to not, to not press into my faith the way I need to and, and walk them be repentant, right.

All of those things because my faith is strong and I don't doubt you're

GARY: not

CHAD: questioning

God

CHAD: in the journey. I don't do the work sometimes that I need to do. Um, so no, at no point it's always healthy or not. It's probably, I'm, I'm the problem.

GARY: It's interesting though, because couples,

KYLE: but isn't that always the case that you're, that more the problem?

CHAD: Of course, but we don't always see it that way. We, we want something to blame and sometimes we'll blame God or something. Or

GARY: spouse.

CHAD: Yeah, somebody else.

GARY: It's very interesting because I see it in my own marriage, but I see it in other people too, where. Very rarely, it actually can be even more problematic if both people in a relationship process everything the same, that [00:54:00] can almost be worse.

Sure. I think God, intentionally, we have blind spots. We do. God, I think, intentionally puts people that are maybe slower to process together. People that are quicker, quick to speak and slow to listen. Um, and in my journey it's been very like, um, yeah, my wife needs to process things by talking. She's not looking for answers.

Mm-hmm. She's not looking for anything to be okay. She wants it to not be okay for a bit. And I'm not okay with that, if that makes sense. Where I'm just like, like our, my saying is just bear down. Like, you know, like, we'll be fine. Right? Like, you know, and

KYLE: do better

GARY: do. Well I wouldn't say do better, like, you're doing fine.

Like, you're fine. Right. Like, define fine. There's a joke about that. But the, uh, inappropriate one, but the, um. Yeah. It's just very interesting, um, how couples, especially in these challenging things where, I mean, obviously you guys decided together and my wife and have decided together, but there's been times where it didn't feel like we decided together.

Yeah. Or, Hey, this is not going the way we thought, or this is not what I signed up for. [00:55:00]

KYLE: Well, ironically, when you went and took a piss break, he was saying that when they're during the adoptive process, that, um, they both gave each other their permission to say at any point, like, stop. We're, we're not moving forward.

And, and

GARY: yeah. But once you've adopted, there's no stopping.

KYLE: That's fair.

CHAD: Right? Absolutely.

GARY: Yeah. Yeah.

CHAD: And that's, that's hard. Um, and we just, you know, I think we've learned along the way and, and it's, it's really a blessing with the stuff that we have taken on as a, as a couple. I see it as a real blessing that the Lord has given us a relationship that we can process these things well and helpfully.

GARY: Yeah.

CHAD: Um, we have. The talks, you know, we have the how are you doing and check-ins and, and sometimes I don't wanna say right. I don't wanna say how I'm doing 'cause I feel terrible about how I actually feel about things. Right. And that's hard. Do

GARY: you feel like you can't [00:56:00] say that to her?

CHAD: Um,

GARY: or is it just in general? You don't wanna say it out loud in a minute.

CHAD: It depends where she's at.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Right. So, uh, I've always taken that picture of marriage. And again, you can, you can analyze me later, but, uh,

GARY: don't worry. We will,

CHAD: if I'm looking out for your best and you're looking out for my best, yeah, we're gonna be okay.

Yeah. Right. So if, I'm always, and so if it's too much in that moment, if I feel like it's too much for her to carry in that moment, I'm not gonna share it.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Um. That's probably not right.

GARY: That has led to a lot of problems in our marriage.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: That exact thing.

CHAD: Sure.

GARY: Where I am like, no, I'll just take care of this and then not really be honest about how I'm feeling.

Right. In the end, it all does come out 'cause I'm still on the human being tour and it leaks out in weird ways and then all of a sudden I finally have it all come out and it's like, oh, like [00:57:00] now were you even being authentic? Like what's, you know?

KYLE: Right. So because it's probably more that, not that you don't think the other person can handle it, but more that you don't want to deal with the other person's response to Sure.

What you're saying

GARY: or both end. Both end maybe. I don't even think it's black and white per se. I think it's more, and I had a meeting, random chance that I happen to pump into a guy this morning. Good friend of mine, who's been going through a very difficult situation in his marriage and he said it's been the biggest blessing ever.

That was just so, so cool. Yeah. Because it's not been easy for him or for her. It's just been tough. Right. And so I think that has been my experience too, that, you know, it's the old saying of, you know, conflict is the pathway to intimacy. And I think that often people just are not willing to, myself included.

I've always been like, I, I would say a peacemaker and you would say a conflict avoider or whatever.

CHAD: Right.

GARY: Kyle would say that. Right. But I think, yeah, it's just, there's something really in order to get to a great spot off and you just gotta go through a lot of mess. Yeah. Even if you seem like you're doing reasonably well.

KYLE: Yeah. And, and to be sanctified, I think God sanctifies us and [00:58:00] brings us to himself because of suffering

GARY: through, through tough

KYLE: things. I've never had it like, oh, I've got a huge sale now. I'm way closer to God. Right. Not, it hasn't happened. Maybe it's happened for Gary, but it hasn't happened for me.

GARY: Huge auction.

I don't know who I feel closer to. I don't know if it's the Lord, but some dis East Indians. Anyways, it's so bad.

CHAD: I think what you said there was important that it's, it's gonna come out and I. I do think, you know, without, um, I do think that, like, I've certainly had times where that moment isn't right. But, but then I wanna look for the moment that is

GARY: and you get there.

Okay.

CHAD: And we get there. Right. Without necessarily bottling it up and pushing it down. Okay. Um, but I'm sure I've done the other two.

GARY: Okay. Kyle, sorry, you got a question? Or I gotta No, I was gonna do a total rabbit trail.

KYLE: I was gonna do rabbit trail too.

GARY: Okay, go ahead.

KYLE: I, [00:59:00] I wanna talk about this gospel day that you're doing the organization work for.

Do that. Why, why are you personally passionate about it? And, and tell me about this day and how people could get involved or,

CHAD: yeah. I, you know, what Gospel Alive Day is all about? Well, it's about celebrating that the gospel is alive in Canada. So in that, there's a, to me, there's encouragement. I, I'm really.

Uh, I can have a critical spirit, um, and a good day. It's called analytical and a bad day. It's called the Critical Spirit. Um,

GARY: I like that. I like it. Yeah.

CHAD: I, uh, you know, I can look at what churches are doing and I can, I can break it down. I've been a pastor's kid, I've been a worship leader. I've been on pastoral staff.

I can, I can go on a Sunday and I can critique everything that's going on and find all the things that are wrong. And I, when I look at churches across Canada, I've, I've been in small churches that aren't thriving. You would look at and go, man, I mean, should they even be around? [01:00:00] Right. And other churches that are booming and things are happening.

My dad was a pastor of churches. We had baptisms, but we didn't have 30 baptisms at the lake in one thing. Right. It just, you, you'd sit there and go, man, this is, I, it's, it doesn't feel like it's

GARY: vibrant.

CHAD: It's is alive and vibrant as it can be. But you know, those churches in those communities, you know, by living out the gospel, by the impact that they're having in their community, by actively pursuing, um, the gospel in their workplaces, in the communities and stuff, they, they set that, you know, there's young people growing up in those churches who become, you know, who end up moving to other places and they learn what it is for the gospel to be alive in their life.

And I, I want to encourage those pastors who are doing their best to, [01:01:00] to bring the gospel on Sunday morning to, to teach and to shepherd their their people. I want to encourage them that you're important to. To the fact that the gospel is alive in Canada, whether you're a small little community church or whether you're a big booming church in a city.

So when we, when we put this together, we wanted something where every, uh, a people's church in Toronto, or church in watchers, Saskatchewan, could, could participate and be part of it, but they celebrate it in their own local context with in their own DNA. We're not trying to bring them together. We're not trying to have them do something they're not, they don't normally do.

And I wanted to encourage them that we see you and we love that you are. Living out the gospel in every way that you can. And, and that's important. And so Gospel Alive Day is an invitation for churches to participate. It's a way for us to celebrate [01:02:00] that the gospel is alive in Canada and communities right across the, the country.

KYLE: And practically like, so me as a member, I'm like, okay, I know about this day now maybe Centrals can be involved, maybe not. I, I don't know. But like, it doesn't really affect me now. So for the practical, is that, is there something for the

CHAD: individual person? There is. There is. And thanks for asking Kyle.

There's a, for the individuals, we are collecting stories from across the country of how people are seeing the gospel alive. So how are you seeing God working? So, uh, we have a, a thing on the website, uh, where you pull it up and it's right, ready for you to record, uh, your personal story. You can do it on your phone or whatever, or you can write it down if you want.

We can, we can. Put the story up as well. But we are trying to capture, we're working with camps and bible colleges and stuff to capture how the gospel is alive across the country. Um, just to inspire people and to give people, you know, I think it's important to see ourselves sometimes in others and [01:03:00] go, wow, you know what?

I see what they're doing and I can do that too.

GARY: Well, years ago when I was gonna South Suicide, we used, there used to be, and I, it's been a long time since they've had a big one at Prospera or you know, the Chill Lock Coliseum. But when I was younger, I don't know if you remember going, uh, but they used to do like a citywide service in our town in Chill Lock.

KYLE: Sure. Remember Matt? Can you preach at it? A couple

GARY: weeks ago? Yeah. That was in the park, right? He and I decided the other night I told him that wasn't the same thing, but he said it was. But no, I dig it. It was, but I'm just saying it was like at the Chill Lock Coliseum and there's probably 3000, 4,000 people there and I always found it super encouraging.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: You know, 'cause I'm thinking, Hey, as you're going about your day now, we should be able to see it anyways. And how people. Treat their waitress and how people do business and everything, we should just be able to tell that your life should look different. But it's like, it was just encouraging. It's like you see all these people that you saw around town and it was definitely, I thought it was awesome.

So, um, are you sending invites out to every church or how do you go about that in the form of your ministry? Like, did you basically send it out a package to all the churches, the denominations, or?

CHAD: Yeah, [01:04:00] so we have a bunch of churches that we have relationship with already. Okay. So we sort of approached them already and then we sent out, yeah, I think the list was over 8,000 churches across the country.

Okay. Wow. Um. We're bringing a piece. So for, for a large church, they don't need our help to put on an event. Right. But for the smaller churches, we're providing a kit with everything they need with slides. And, because that's

GARY: a big reason that people wouldn't do something. They don't need more work. It's a one man band there

CHAD: already.

Yeah. So we want it to be free for them to, to do, we want it to be interesting, easy for them to do. So for the smaller churches, they've got everything kind of in a kit ready to go. They can put on an advantage right before Canada today. And so it's this is the first year you're doing

KYLE: it?

CHAD: Yeah, this is the first annual we are looking to

GARY: build on it.

CHAD: To build on it. And so

GARY: on this, sorry, go ahead.

KYLE: Uh, a quick question. A state of, uh, of, uh, of Christianity in Canada, like usually I hear a lot of, um, negative stuff, or not negative, just like the fact that it's declining in Canada and that churches are emptying out. [01:05:00] Um, we heard in a recent sermon that there's 600 pastors retiring in Canada this year, and only 200 new people coming in.

Um, but you're also, your message is actually a little different, more of, of hope and that there's, um, a lot of Christians still in Canada that wanna follow. What would you say the state is of, of Christianity in Canada and, and the needs and, and, uh, like, even just the pastor thing, like that one really hit me.

I was like, wow. Like, that's crazy.

CHAD: The pastor thing is legit and it's, it's serious. And, uh, and as Outreach Canada, we want to be part of the solution. How do we, how do we help figure this out Because, um, we are gonna need more pastors. Uh, that's a reality. Um, on the other side of it, you know, we're seeing things like the open generation study.

Uh, that barn has done some of the studies that Alpha is part of where the younger generation especially is more open to invitation to church. Um, and so we're leaning into [01:06:00] that where the church has such a critical role. I find that a lot of organizations, you know, they, they bring a lot of great ideas and tools and resources to the table.

Um, but it's not a replacement for the relationships that come out of the church. And so in that equipping, we need to come alongside as a trusted partner of the church in Canada and help them be stronger so they can live that out in their communities. I don't have relationship with someone in a community and I can't pretend to, but that church does.

And so if people are, if there's a willingness and we're seeing evidence of that there, there's a willingness to not be, um, offended by religion coming up or Christianity coming up, faith coming up in conversations that, that there's an openness to have that and actually an openness if you invite someone to church that they're, they're actually willing to come.

We're leaning into that and going, okay, if that's what we're [01:07:00] seeing, then. Let's not be shy, right? Let's, let's be out there and let's be willing to live out our faith and, and be okay with it and not be fearful and not have those boundaries up.

GARY: Um, this long podcast, one of the longer briefcases in the barn, Kyle's tweaking.

He's got this like timeframe in his mind it does not matter. It's irrelevant. Joe would say, Hey, we go, just go until you're done. Right? Um, we normally talk current events, right? Finances. Agriculture. Yeah. Much to his chagrin. Um, we haven't touched on, should we talk about current events a bit today? I mean, I feel like there's been some pretty wild current events.

KYLE: nuts.

GARY: We're just after the Easter weekend, um, we had the p President of the United States.

KYLE: Oh, terrible,

GARY: terrible. I don't, it's it's a little so

KYLE: exciting.

GARY: It's very concerning in a lot of ways. Um, but in a way I think really healthy to be frank, I would think really healthy.

KYLE: What part should we define what we're talking about?

GARY: Yeah, we could talk what we're talking about. Have you fall, do you follow any us enough to, to be dangerous then? Oh, yeah. So about the camp I would be [01:08:00] in, I spend a bit of time on Twitter and on Easter Sunday. Uh, and I'm gonna misquote it now. I mean, we could say that it's got the effort in it anyways.

Donald Trump's talking about, you know, open up the straight, um, blankety blank. Um, praise beat all.

KYLE: Yeah, what

GARY: I says. Pardon? Um. So, I dunno if he was mocking the Iranians or if he's just completely unhinged or what the, you know, he hasn't really clarified those comments. Normally when he does something that his base hates, he'll do a quick Houdini and like blame it on some intern or something.

Right? Like, you know, he's a bit of a Gary Barr, right? Abdicate, abdicate whose fault, whose fault not mine. Um, anyways, so yeah, it was just interesting to me because I feel like, um, and my wife and I are in the same camp on Donald Trump and, and just people, leaders in general, like, but particularly him where, you know, we don't have TDS, like we're not, you know, I'm not part of the, you know, Canada only, and Ben, everything from the United States, and I'm not in the camp of like, he's a great leader and he's doing amazing things for Christianity and he's like, [01:09:00] whatever.

Like,

CHAD: yeah,

GARY: I hold it all pretty loosely.

KYLE: If you, if you, if it, you know, a tree buys fruit,

well

GARY: it's,

KYLE: it seem like a Christian

GARY: Well, or just the idea of like, you know, for example, if you're there and you voted for him, which, I mean, I talked to somebody at our church on Sunday night who voted for him. You know, they're an American and they thought it was pretty important.

Probably still would vote for 'em. There are, they would say, Hey, what was the alternative? Yeah. So like, whatever. Like all that. Put all that aside. Um, it's just, we talked a lot on this show about Christian nationalism recently with another guest and it's, this is breaking that down, which I think is just really healthy.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: Like, let's dis disconnect this person who's on the human being tour always was, always will. But even if he says all the right things going forward. Yeah. And so it was just interesting. And I guess on that front even I'm just, I'm, I'm not qualified to comment. I know nothing about, like, I, I know a little bit about oil and gas and how it's affecting oil prices 'cause I'm invested in that and I followed a bit and it affects all of us when we go fill up with the pump.

Um. I'm just, it's just [01:10:00] crazy to think of, Hey, how is this gonna play out long term, even in our economy? Like, is this de inflationary or de everybody's saying it's inflationary. I don't know if you have a, a perspective. I think it would be deflationary in the, in the long run where it's gonna create what

KYLE: specific part?

Like if he

GARY: prices,

KYLE: if he follows through with

GARY: like, I think all of it. All of it. I think, um, I don't think there's winning in the Middle East. Like when they talk about him winning or Iran winning, there's no winning,

KYLE: no never has any war that they've done. If it's

GARY: no, it's eventually kind of Vietnam or slowly leave with your tucked tail between your leg and lots of young men dead and a lot of carnage and thinking, Hey, you know, we don't have the leader we had there, the horrible leader, but now we have a new one and we'll see how they turn out.

Like that's what this feels like to me.

CHAD: So him being the deal maker that he is, 'cause that's sort of how,

GARY: that's what he's selling himself.

CHAD: He's, he's the deal maker. I don't see him as a necessarily politician.

GARY: Okay.

CHAD: Which was part of the, the why people liked him when he. When he came on, [01:11:00] um,

GARY: yeah, that I, that I would agree with.

Definitely not politically correct in any way, shape or form.

CHAD: Right. He's a deal maker. So, so why do you think he's, why do you think they've done this based

GARY: on it's sold

CHAD: being the deal maker,

GARY: it's sold. Do you

CHAD: think it's gonna be deflationary?

GARY: It's sold as a bill. The bill of Go Goods that's being sold, and I've heard it even in the last 24 hours from people that are not Trump fans, would be the idea of, hey, and actually they played clips recently, the rights playing clips of Hillary saying 10 years ago.

I would go, I'm going into I Iraq.

KYLE: Well, they were going through, that was, that was the whole thing. I like campaign trail that Camelo was for sure gonna go in and, and, and push it hard.

GARY: I haven't heard, say, I haven't heard her say it, but yeah, now there's just been about face of him all of a sudden being very involved in other foreign countries.

And this,

KYLE: I don't think he's in control. Like I, I think,

GARY: oh, you think he's just a c Nile old man now?

KYLE: No, no. I think you, you have a lot of powerful people that are advising him to push certain directions. It's not like you're, you're being fed a certain amount of information. You have [01:12:00] a CAA of a hundred thousand people.

You have like, you know, all these other organizations that have been there for a long time. Like, think about a church, a new pastor comes in, new pastor's not changing the church. It's the elders that have been for there for 30 years. Depends, 40 years that are keeping it the same.

GARY: Chad and I are like, it depends.

KYLE: Now you have an organization that's secular, that's huge and like a president comes in. Depends

GARY: how strong the pastor is and what the church is like.

CHAD: Yeah. If there's another deal going on, if there's another,

GARY: something we don't know about

CHAD: or something that's there that is, that's valuable enough to him to do.

And maybe it's lack of support. Maybe he's, but I hear you guys talking about this on one of your recent podcasts. Uh, people weren't ex people voted for him

GARY: to

CHAD: not get, 'cause he wasn't gonna be going into wars. Mm-hmm. And things like that. So I don't know where the currency is. I don't know where he's feeling that this is

GARY: a good step,

CHAD: a good step, unless there is a reality of, uh, they were at a stage.

But it [01:13:00] seems like that's debatable whether they were really all of a sudden at a, a level of critical strength that they were Yeah. So scary.

KYLE: I think there's also this idea that, at least that I grew up with her a long time, that somehow America or Canada was like moral, had had a moral high ground for some reason, and that people in that Middle East didn't have this moral high ground and we were somehow better and we were the decider of like what was good and bad, the

GARY: nationalism

KYLE: stuff, and Yeah.

And well,

GARY: and to some degree I would, I would agree with it. I mean, I think, and I know if Matt Keane's not here and he might be listening, but I mean, it'd be interesting to his, see his, his take would, I would assume would be that like, hey. These are Islamic terrorists. A lot of these people, not all of 'em, but like, there's a swath of like, we don't, I mean, we're starting to have it in our countries 'cause people are, we're importing it.

But like that has not been our general like, and that's I guess what is concerning to me, where even his comments today were really bad about just wiping out civilization. Just the lack of care for human life is, is exactly, yeah. Is so disgusting. Where it's like, hey, like we can all [01:14:00] agree that hey, Iran probably shouldn't have nuclear weapons.

Like, I think that would be the bulk, we would all agree with that. Yeah. But then from there, our opinions would really start to diverge of how we're gonna get to, you know, peace and, and what harmony looks like in the Middle East. So, I don't know. I just, yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens to his base, to the, to the, because oh,

KYLE: it's so fractured already.

GARY: Okay. It must be really fractured now you're probably even more in tune with how fractured it is after

KYLE: this weekend. Yeah. I mean, you see what, like Tucker Carlson who used to be campaigning for him more than anything, it's just like. Blasting him for like a couple months straight now. Okay. For how hard he has gone, gone against the base.

Uh, he got, uh, did a lot of podcasts when he was on the campaign trail, which usually politicians had it done before that. And that got a lot of the young p voters out. And a lot of those podcasts, he went on really big ones like Andrew Schultz and Joe Rogan, and there's a bunch of other ones. He talked about the fact that he wasn't gonna do a lot of these things, and they're all saying like, look, we have it on tape.

You goes directly against everything that was said. And so that, so

GARY: in that way he is a [01:15:00] typical politician because they, they usually say one thing on the campaign trail and do something else once certain power.

KYLE: For, for me, it's done one thing just like. There's no, don't put your hopes in princes

GARY: on this earth.

KYLE: Amen. On this earth like it's this. Isn't, Israel wanted Jesus to come and save him from the Romans and, and set up an earthly kingdom. I think naturally we want Paul ever do that for us in Canada.

GARY: Yeah, we do.

KYLE: It's very interest to make everything nice and have our comfortable lives. He's gonna really

GARY: let us down too.

Somebody brought that up the other day with me. They said even, 'cause they actually, he was just on the dire of a CEO and it's very interesting podcast. He has a very difficult story and it's, it's actually really cool. Just very unique story and it seems like he's done really, really well considering his, the journey of his life.

Like I would say, listening to his story, it was pretty cool.

KYLE: Steven Barlett or Pier Lio.

GARY: Well, both. Okay. But Pier Paul have, yeah. You know, just recently shared his story about his journey as a child and stuff and yeah. I just think, you know, I

KYLE: think he'd be bit better than Carney, but like Yeah. He's still a,

GARY: well, yeah, I do, I guess what I, and I think of like all the people that have to, like, let's just say you're an amazing leader and you're, and [01:16:00] like even in my tiny little way I lead things, well, like you still have a hundred people coming behind you that need to follow instructions and stick with the plan and like, we're all gonna screw up.

That's, I'm gonna screw up as a leader. Everybody along the journey's gonna fall short. And that's, I think that is why the gospel, when you talk about if we were put a bow on this thing, you know, that's why the gospel matters. Yeah. Like literally because we are all on the human being tour and desperately need to be saved.

And if we can have that posture as a church, as a country, and as individuals in our own family

KYLE: be good shape and Jesus as example shape, like, uh, the last Supper, he is like. Who's the most important here? And he's like, I am. Just do as I do, serve,

GARY: wash the feet,

KYLE: wash the feet. Like the complete opposite of what we think when it comes to power or leadership, everything else.

Like he, he came, he didn't come into the Jerusalem on a nice black stallion, came on a donkey. Right? Like everything was backwards. And it's just hard for us to grasp. It's like this conversation about adoption. It's just like, no, it's not our, unfortunately, it's not what Joel Ostein says in our best life now.[01:17:00]

It's our best life later.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: Best life later.

CHAD: We get divided on a, a lot of things. It's easy for us to become divided just by sharing opinions. Mm-hmm. You, you alienate a bunch of people in in that we can be unified on the gospel.

KYLE: Yeah.

CHAD: Right.

KYLE: Beautiful. That set in the gospel day. Yeah.

CHAD: Yeah.

KYLE: Which transforms.

GARY: Yeah. And I think my experience has been even recently where, if you can just focus on that, it's just amazing how different churches. Very different churches still really agree. Yeah, right. Might you agree on how it's, how it's said. They might agree on some of the wording. They might, but they would all agree who the savior is, they would all agree how much of a difference that makes and how we need that.

And yeah, it's just pretty cool. So pray that your event is a success and

KYLE: people want to,

GARY: thanks for sharing your story.

KYLE: Yeah. If people wanna reach out to you, either on the adoption stuff or anything else, what's the best way to contact you?

CHAD: Oh. Um,

KYLE: if you want people to contact, maybe you're,

GARY: when you're a guest on this [01:18:00] show, you're automatically a target for better or for worse.

CHAD: Absolutely. No, I'm happy to, um, probably c bruski at outreach. Do ca is my email and

KYLE: Okay. I'll put it on the screen.

CHAD: Yeah.

GARY: Or if you googled Chad Bruski Outreach Canada.

CHAD: Yep.

GARY: Would that they'd find you. Right. You'll find me. You'll find. Okay.

KYLE: Sweet. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. I, I learned a lot.

GARY: Yeah. Very, very thanks for sharing your story too. Really. Cool. Have a great, uh, yeah, Dave, further

KYLE: one, I think I, I, I'd still like to have you on like the, the Furious Curious Show. Just sit down for like a two hour episode and dive a little deeper into some of the stuff that Gary alluded to and stuff.

'cause uh, um, I think, uh,

GARY: with your wife. I think she needs to be here. Chad, I feel like this is

KYLE: after she listens to this one.

GARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. She'll set the record straight. That's

KYLE: right. That's awesome. Thanks guys.

GARY: Have a great week. Thanks. We gather

KYLE: in here

GARY: picture.

KYLE: This is the

GARY: AI will make you look

KYLE: really strange.

Really, really

GARY: weird. Good.

KYLE: Thank you.

GARY: Thank you. You [01:19:00] guys. That was long. How long was that?

KYLE: That was not the longest one. 1 25 was longest one. Okay. This is one 20.

GARY: Okay. Oh wow.

CHAD: Okay. Are you sure?

KYLE: Yeah, that was the Americans. Oh yeah.

GARY: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE: Americans, they just talk too much.

GARY: This is uh, this is our, uh, tomorrow. Tomorrow's thumb now. Oh, who's that with? Yeah, that's for sure. Man. Man, that's so quick, baby. Such

CHAD: a tool. Such a tool. So speaking of divisive, so has this, have you maintained the vision? That you had for this when you started or?

KYLE: So I, so I have two, two podcasts. Yeah. A security show, which is me doing long form interviews and learning.

And that was just me being curious. And then when I started coaching, I was like, I need a way to advertise the coaching, but I don't wanna do little clips.

GARY: Yeah.

KYLE: Into a camera. So I said to Gary, I said, we should record every week, talk about whatever we wanna talk about. And naturally the people that like that will listen and the people that won't, won't.

And then I can advertise the coaching. [01:20:00]

GARY: It's well listened to like

KYLE: Yeah.

GARY: Listener's kind of steady, right?

KYLE: Yeah. It's pretty steady. The 507 50.

GARY: Yeah. Somewhere in there.

KYLE: Yeah. So yeah, it is an advertising tool and a hobby, I guess. And just enjoy it.

GARY: People like it's mostly Dr. Foreign people. I

KYLE: Extra form?

GARY: No, your form.

So,

KYLE: yeah.

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