January 28, 2022

What does it mean to be #blessed? - Vaneetha Rendall Risner - Season 2 Episode 10

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Kyle: [00:00:00] I am good. Okay.

Hello.

Vaneetha: Hi,

Kyle: how are you?

Vaneetha: Good, how are you?

Kyle: Good, good. Oh, you got braces?

Vaneetha: Yes, I got braces like six months ago, and it has been, uh, yeah, my latest form of suffering. I say, you know,

Kyle: yeah, I, I didn't read about the braces in the book, so

Vaneetha: no. Yeah, they, they have been new and um, yeah, I didn't [00:01:00] see that I needed to do it.

My jaw is a little unaligned and I was joking with my husband. I said, I don't mind grinding my teeth down to nubs, but he suggested that maybe I do the braces. So.

Kyle: Nice. Yeah. Right on. Um, yeah, I think, we'll, I'm, so, I have Tim, uh, in the background here and he's managing all the cameras and everything, so he'll, he might ask you some questions here as we get ready to go.

Cameraman: Okay. Sounds good. I am Tim, just a quick note. You're looking good. Your picture and sound is good if you, are you on a laptop? Yes. I'm just wondering, you've got a lot of headroom and what I'd like to do is match you and Kyle. That way when I put you side by side, you're essentially framed the same. I'll, I'll pull

Vaneetha: it closer to me.

Me, maybe I need to grab my husband and ask

Cameraman: him. I'm not sure if you need to move it closer as much as just tilted down. So, okay. Little bit are, is it a, a screen or is it a laptop screen? [00:02:00] Um, I have

Vaneetha: a little camera on the top.

Cameraman: Got it. I'm just wondering if we can get a little less headroom. So you match Kyle essentially?

Yeah, that, that'll do it, I bet. Right there.

Vaneetha: Does that,

Cameraman: yeah, that looks good.

Kyle: Perfect.

Awesome.

Vaneetha: Okay.

Cameraman: That looks really good. Great. Okay, so I am recording.

Vaneetha: I have a very light background, so we'll look very different in that way, but

Cameraman: yeah, it's, no, you look, you look good. So I'm gonna mute myself and turn off my camera, but Kyle, are you gonna, should I start wide on you and then we'll put you side by side?

Kyle: Sure. Sounds good.

Cameraman: Okay. So I'll just do that

and you guys are good to go in about 10 seconds, so just count that down in your head, Kyle, and you're good.

Kyle: Okay, thank you.

Okay, Benita, thank you very much for doing this. [00:03:00] I, um, I'm pretty excited about it actually. Uh, I don't know if you remember this, but I actually met you at, uh, in the Phoenix de Air and God Conference in, uh, 2019. Oh, wow. Yes. You and your husband, me and my wife were there.

Vaneetha: Okay. You know, I, you look familiar, but I don't, I don't remember our conversation specifically, but when I saw your tour, I thought, I feel like I've met him, but I didn't really know.

Okay.

Kyle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting 'cause so I, I was reading your book the last week and, uh, so two months after that happened, we had a stillborn, um, baby. Um, and so, uh, reading your story this week in your book, um, which was, I think everyone should read, there was a lot of, uh, I, I guess I, I guess I felt a connection and, and, uh, I thought the, the book was extremely well written and, and, uh, so I'm, I'm super excited to talk to you about it today.

Vaneetha: Oh, wow. I'm so sorry about that loss, though. I'm sure that felt real, you know, just having your house all ready for, to bring him a baby.

Kyle: Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't, it, it's, it's, [00:04:00] I guess it's hard to explain to people. I mean, it, it, it's, it's not, I don't think it's like losing a, a two month old or like you did with Paul, but, or, or, um, an older child.

But it's still.

Vaneetha: Oh,

Kyle: it's, it's the me It's the memories. It's the memories that you, yeah, I guess that you don't have. But yeah, as, as I was reading your book,

Vaneetha: what never was, which is often just as painful, you know, in lots of ways. So,

Kyle: yeah. Um, but I guess, uh, um, so I, I'm encouraging everyone to read your, uh, book.

Uh, all the details are in there, but maybe we can start with, uh, maybe you can give your kind of your life story and, and, uh, and uh, yeah, we'll go from there and I'll ask him questions after that.

Vaneetha: Okay. I would love to give my life story. So you mean like the entire thing, like go through? Yeah. I

Kyle: mean, I mean like, yeah, take 10 minutes and, and uh, and, and so, um, and then basically how, um, where you grew up and how you were born.

Uh, where you were born and all that stuff. But then of course, uh, all the suffering that you experienced.

Vaneetha: Okay. Okay. So I was born in India and when I was, uh, three months old, I contracted polio. [00:05:00] Now the doctors had no idea what it was. I, uh, didn't, in India, they don't give the vaccine till you're six months old.

So my parents, um, took me to a friend who was the doctor and she thought I had typhoid because typhoid was going around. So she gave me cortisone to lower my body's fever. I was 105 degree fever, but it lowered my immune system. And within a few days I was completely paralyzed. And then they took me to the pediatrician and the doctor said, wow, there's nothing we can do.

She has polio, she's gonna be paralyzed. And I was at that point, a quadriplegic and they told my parents to leave India because there was no medical services at the time. And in India, when you have any kind of disability, it's much more like a curse on your family. And so. That combined with the fact that there's not a lot of services, my parents left as quickly as they could.

So my dad, who was a professor in India, left and took a manual job [00:06:00] installing telephones in London, manual laborers job, and so moved to London, which is where I had my first surgery, and I was two when I had that. And then we moved to Canada, which is where I started having surgery. So my dad took a job in Canada and I had 21 operations by the time I was 13.

So I lived in the hospital in Montreal for the most part. I lived in the Shriners Hospital. I lived on a ward with about a dozen other girls and was in my bed. I was flat on my back in a body cast for nine months straight. I only saw my parents on weekends, and so my life growing up was just sort of this half life of being at home, seeing my parents, being close to them, but also being bullied.

When I was in school, lots of kids made fun of me when I was seven and I had just learned to walk. Um, a group of kids, uh, threw stones at me and called me a cripple, so I just, I [00:07:00] really didn't know what to make of life. When I was home, it was almost harder to be home than to be in the hospital. Um, but lived in the hospital on and off for years.

And then when I was probably in middle school, stopped having surgeries, but life at that point became very difficult for someone with a disability. Just felt like I did not fit in and grew very angry at God. Um, my parents were believers, went to church, but I really wanted nothing to do with God

Kyle: And the disability.

At like at, in your later teenage years, um, that was the walking disability that you had a hard trouble walking?

Vaneetha: Yes. So that's a great question. So I walked with a limp, so had a hard time walking far distances, but I could walk and actually because of all my, um, surgeries was actually pretty, lived a pretty normal life.

Like I, I could do most of the things that other people could do, but my arms [00:08:00] were always really weak, but people could not see that. So I didn't have surgeries on my arms, so they were very, very weak. But that's not something other people can observe. So. Um, and I exercised a lot. My arms got stronger, so pretty much looked like everybody else, but my, my, my limp is what people noticed and, and asked me What's wrong with you?

Kyle: Okay. Yeah.

Vaneetha: So that made me feel very different and, and I couldn't, I was so, I mean, I couldn't play sports or anything, so it wasn't like a, a normal life in that sense. Uh, so when I was in high school, I got involved in FCA, which is Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and I didn't go because I was an athlete or a Christian, but all the cute guys in my high school went to FCA.

So I went to, and a friend and I would sit in the back and talk about boys, but then, uh, she went away on a retreat, came back. Told me about the Lord and kept talking about it. And so finally I just asked the Lord. Um, I went [00:09:00] home and said, God, if you're real, show me. And really didn't believe that God was going to answer me.

And anyway, because I didn't even believe that God existed.

Kyle: And you were angry at God at this time as well?

Vaneetha: Yes. Yes. So I was really mad at God if he existed. And it was sort of went back and forth between he didn't exist and that was easier to, um. In some ways to deal with then if you did exist and let this happen.

Kyle: And, and was Christianity a, a big deal in your home as well growing up? Like, or was it like, um, like what kind of Christians were your parents? Like they were, was it a big part of their lives or was it a smaller part of their lives?

Vaneetha: It was a big part of their lives. Okay. So my mom taught, um, bible study, taught me Bible study and taught adult Bible study most of my childhood.

So my mom spoke about the Lord. We did, um, a Bible study every day when I got home from school so crazy that I would listen but somehow [00:10:00] just didn't mean it. Didn't

Kyle: want it.

Vaneetha: Yeah. Didn't want it. Knew all the right answers though. So I could, you know, pretty much if you say church, Jesus or God, you've got the right answer.

So I was, I was good to go.

Kyle: Yeah.

Vaneetha: But not, uh, not a strong relationship. No relationship. But my sister was a believer and my parents so that, um. That was an interesting sort of dynamic. And I did not tell them that. I was not a believer. So I went home that night saying, God, if you're real, show me. Then randomly I say randomly, of course there's nothing random with God, but open the Bible to John nine and read when Jesus talking to his disciples and they see a man blind from birth, and Jesus says, who's the disciples say?

Who's saying this man? Or his parents said he was born blind? And Jesus says, it is not that this man sinned or his parents, but that the work of God would be displayed in his life. And so that was the moment [00:11:00] for me, Kyle. God changed everything. And I realized, I had always been asking this question, why?

Why did this happen? Meaning what had I done? Which is why I was so interested in this passage in John nine, but Jesus was answering not what had he done, but what was the purpose. And that was such a different answer to the why question. And I think that's the answer that we all as believers, when we ask that, I think God often answers with.

What is the purpose? What am I doing in this? So, um, came to Christ, but as you know, knelt down by the side of my bed when I read that and committed my life to Jesus, but didn't tell my family, which was kind of funny. But because I had been doing bible study with my mom every day, it felt really weird to say, you know what?

I didn't really have a relationship with dad, and now I do. But it, it's kind of funny because years later they, my sister and my mom specifically said, wow, she was totally different. [00:12:00] Like they knew that something had happened even though I had not told them. So then I went on to kind of live my best life now, I would say.

And, um, went to grad school. Everything in my life sort of seemed to be falling into place. Married a classmate and then I had a miscarriage. And that was sort of the first thing of like, wow, this life isn't. Going the way I thought it would go. And oh, to back up a little bit, so after I went to college, I went to University of Virginia.

I moved to Boston and lived there for four years. I walked to work. I lived a very normal life then and just did everything I wanted to do. I got really involved in our church, um, loved crafts. That was one of the things I didn't mention. I was an artist. I love everything to do with art. So that is a lot of what I spent my time on was, [00:13:00] you know, crafts, painting, doing those kinds of things.

So then, anyway, so fast forward, uh, had a miscarriage and then my, um, my husband had an affair, which really sort of shattered my whole world of like, I thought if you're faithful and you pray, then your life is gonna be good. So that was. Kind of shocking for me, but we were able to put our marriage back together, which was pretty amazing because of the Lord and forgiveness.

And, but then we had a son who I can talk way more in detail about, um, as we go on through the interview, but through a series of things, he was taken off some medicine that he needed and died. And that really sort of sha Sorry, that really, should I start again or something? No,

Kyle: that's fine. Keep going.

Vaneetha: Um, that shattered my faith because I wouldn't say shattered, actually.

I was shattered and wondered where God was in the middle of that. [00:14:00] So really drifted from God and then God really met me in these incredible ways. Um, just when I cr cried out to him. So after that suffering, I knew that God would never. And when and when

Kyle: you say God met you in the, in this suffering, what, what does that, what does that mean?

What, what does that look like when you, when you say that? Yeah. I mean, losing a, losing a, a two month old, uh, your husband being unfaithful, those are extremely heavy things. And so, yeah.

Vaneetha: Yeah. I, I, I am happy to talk about, um, that. So it was interesting 'cause Paul was born with a hypoplastic left heart, which means he had half a heart.

And we knew that before he was born. So we got the best surgeon at the time in the world to do his surgery. He was out of the woods. So we thought, oh my gosh, this is perfect, this is great. God is gonna be honored through his life. And then when he was two months old, his surgery was in Michigan. We took him in to see [00:15:00] another, um, a pediatrician, uh, when our normal pediatric cardiologist was out.

And so this guy did not know anything about Paul's heart condition impulsively took him off all his medicine, saying, oh, he looks great, you know, we don't need to do anything. But he didn't really understand his condition. And so within three days he died. And that is, it probably was one of the darkest times in my life, just wondering, where is God and how did this happen?

And so my Bible was unopened for months. I just, I didn't wanna draw near to God. But, but the funny thing is, right after Paul died, I, um, my husband and I spoke at Paul's funeral and said, God never makes a mistake. We felt really strong and I felt like God carried me. And then months later I wanted to pull it all back because I thought, I don't know where God is.

But I remember being in the car one day and [00:16:00] just wondering, what is the point of all of this? And I was so depressed and I, um, put in a worship tape just to sort of get my mind off of whatever was happening. And all of a sudden I sensed that God was in the car with me and it was this wild sort of sense.

So I ended up turning off the tape 'cause I thought, what is happening here? And I was just singing along with the, the worship song. And I just sensed that God was in the car saying, I'm with you. I'm never gonna leave you. Like, don't despair that my relationship with you is gonna be, um, different because you've lost Paul.

Like my relationship with you is actually gonna be better. That was kind of this thing that I, I didn't even understand it, but it was, I would describe it as the most incredible moment of my life. Honestly. It felt [00:17:00] like heaven. It felt like, wow, it means it doesn't matter what is happening in my life, that God, this presence of God will always be there.

And that was probably even more real to me than the time that when I committed my life to Christ, when I felt like God was really there. It was just this moment where God carried me. How,

Kyle: how long did that last?

Vaneetha: Um, probably just a few minutes of just sensing like, Jesus, you are right here. And I feel like sometimes in suffering, the veil is just a little bit thinner than other times, and there's just this sense that God is there that is probably the most.

Profoundly. I have ever sensed that, but I've sensed God's presence really through reading the word a lot and, and pretty strongly as well. But that was more like, well, God is in this van, my minivan with me. And I go back to that moment sometimes just [00:18:00] remembering like, this is what heaven feels like. It feels like joy in the midst of the worst, that you don't even think about anything else but God.

Kyle: Wow. And I'm, I'm curious when you guys lost Paul, and maybe this is more a, a question for your ex-husband, but did he feel that it was a punishment for what he had done? Did, do you?

Vaneetha: Um, I don't know if he did. We never really talked about that, whether he felt that way. I didn't feel like it was a punishment, but I felt that it was, God didn't care that, um.

Like I had this sort of functional theology that if we do the right thing, then God's gonna do the right thing for us. And so it felt like, what did I do wrong? Like, why are you, why did you not hear me? And we had a lot of people come over when I was pregnant with Paul, just saying, if you pray the right way, if you do the right things, then Paul, Paul will be [00:19:00] healed.

And so for him not only to not be healed, but to actually die because of doctor's mistake just made me feel like, did we not pray the right way? Should we have done something different? So there was just a lot of questions that, um, that sort of swirled around in our minds, but I don't know specifically if Dave felt like, wow, this is punishment for, because you know, we had just been, um, kind of recovering from his affair.

So I don't know if he thought, oh wow, this is God's punishment for

Kyle: that. Okay. Yeah. So you have this, um. This moment after Paul's passing, uh, that where you felt, uh, God's presence,

Vaneetha: uh,

Kyle: where do we go from there in your story? Okay,

Vaneetha: so then I, um, went on, had another, uh, little girl, uh, Christie. So I had a, an, an older daughter, Katie, when after we, uh, Katie was born.

Then I had two more miscarriages. Then I had Paul and then Christie after Paul died. So it was just raising the [00:20:00] girls and you know, just pretty much moving on with life. When, six years after Paul died, I was diagnosed with post-polio syndrome and I had not even heard of that. I didn't know what it was, but I had been doing something and all of a sudden I felt this huge pain in my arm and didn't know what it was.

And ended up going to doctors for, um, months, actually trying to figure out what it was. And finally somebody said, do you think this is related to polio? And I thought. No, I don't think it's related to polio, but went to a polio clinic in Boston and that's when they diagnosed me with post polio. And what post polio syndrome is, is it happens to about 70% of the people who have polio.

And the way they explained it to me is when you get polio, you your primary motor neurons die, which is why I was a quadriplegic. But then you get secondary motor neurons which sprout up and they sort of take that place. So you're able to do things that [00:21:00] you couldn't do when you first got polio. But they said those secondary motor neurons have a limited.

So they're not like primary ones where you exercise and you can constantly rebuild them. And so they said they come with a certain amount of energy and when you wear them out, they're gone. And so they basically told me to stop doing everything that I was doing. I was, um, I love to cook, I love to paint, I love to do all of those things.

And they said, you've only got a certain amount of energy, so the more you do the weaker you're gonna get. So I had to give up so much of what I was doing and, and I kind of joke around that I was totally fine giving up vacuuming and dusting and all of those things, but it was a lot harder to give up.

Painting, cooking, having friends over doing stuff with my girls. And I could still do things, but not the same way. And I was pretty addicted to scrapbooking and I had to give that up. So. [00:22:00] Just a lot of, and you had to give it up because of the pain or

Kyle: because they, they said, wait one day, if you don't give it up now, you're gonna be paying for it later.

Vaneetha: Yes. It, it was, um, a little bit because of the pain, but more because they said, if you don't do it now, you will be paying for it. And

Kyle: Okay.

Vaneetha: One of the things they said when I said, what happens if I don't make these changes? Like, I, I can't, you know, I can't do all of this at once. And I remember the one that said to me, if you don't do this in 10 years, someone will be feeding you.

Kyle: Wow.

Vaneetha: So, and you know, my kids were young at the time. I was in my thirties and so I thought, well, I, I can't have somebody feeding me in 10 years. So. That, uh, brought reality, you know, kind of front and center. So that is why I stopped doing all of those things. Now, I, I didn't stop doing all of them right away, but within a few years I had, I mean, I got, um, voice recognition software, which is what I use now.

I [00:23:00] got an adapted van, which I didn't have before. So I really had to make radical changes in my life as a result of that diagnosis.

Kyle: Crazy. And then more stuff happens after that.

Vaneetha: Right, right. So I'm sort of adjusting to this knowing that one day I'm gonna be a wheelchair. I mean, basically I said one day you're gonna be a quadriplegic again.

And so, sort of trying to figure this out. And then, um, Dave, my ex-husband, um, came home and told me he was leaving for someone else and, oh. That rocked my world probably more than all the other things because I was alone now. Like when Paul died, we had each other. But all of a sudden now I have two adolescent daughters who don't understand what's happening.

I'm raising them and I have post-polio. So, you know, he moved to another state and I'm doing everything for them, driving, figuring out life. And so that, that [00:24:00] shattered me because we were really close. We had put our marriage back together. I did not expect that my, our family was close. So my daughters felt very betrayed.

Like, where is God? And, you know, you guys were involved in church. I was leading, um, women's Bible study at one point. He had been a deacon in our church. So it was just this huge thing and it, it shattered all of us. To think that, you know, some, a life that sort of looked pretty good on the outside and that we thought was good really wasn't what we thought it was.

So that that really, I think is what made my daughters question what was real and whether God was real sort of in the way that I had. And that though was the time, I would say when I drew closest to God because I had no other options. Every day I would get up really early and just pour out my heart to God because I was homeschooling the my two daughters, which kind of is [00:25:00] crazy, but, so I'm alone homeschooling them.

They're angry. There's just lots of, um. Unkindness to rage sort of pouring out in our home. And I would just get up and say, I would read Psalm one 19 over and over, which is a very long Psalm, but just reading, um, my soul clings to the dust, revive me according to your word, is, is one of the things I would say, because I just needed God to revive me.

'cause I didn't know how I was gonna make it. And God did. I mean, that was what was crazy, is God revived me in ways I would never have even expected. And I really loved the Bible before then, or I liked the Bible, I would say. And there was lots of times when I got a lot out of it. And there were other times when it felt like cardboard.

But after that, I just learned how to dig into the Bible, love scripture, believe that God was [00:26:00] speaking to me. And that was a big change for me. I started believing every day when I opened the Bible that God had something to say to me. And that really changed my perspective. If you open the Bible thinking, God is gonna speak to me today and I just need to find what he's saying, you approach scripture very differently.

You read each word, you pay attention because the living God is about to talk to you. And that method, or just that attitude, has really changed the way I've studied the Bible since just believing there's something for me versus feeling like, okay, today I just gotta get through this and move on to the rest of my day.

And so I'm very grateful for that time because it drew me to God and the presence of God in a different way than after Paul died, when it was really just this sense that, wow, God is in my car. This is heaven. Versus after Dave left feeling like God is opening up the scripture to me and God is talking to me.

And that was more of a rep replicatable or replicable [00:27:00] experience because. That can happen when we open the Bible and we say, God, open my eyes that I would see wonderful things in your law, and we just ask God, he shows up. And I have had these amazing times with God just by believing that God has something to say.

Kyle: And wow. It's a, it's such a, a, as we, I, I guess we're kind of doing a flyover of your life here. And, and, uh, so for the listeners, if you want to get in more details in all this, please read the book. Um, it is, it's, it's in, it's incredible. And, and the detail in there I think is very, uh, key. Um, so, uh, your husband leaves you, um, your of young teenage daughters in your home, um, but you're close to God.

Um, walk me through what, what's going on next?

Vaneetha: Okay, so life is kind of fallen apart and. I'm trying to go back and forth with my ex-husband, like sometimes he wants to come back. Not sure. So we're sort of, [00:28:00] our whole family's in limbo, but then he, uh, ended up saying, I want a divorce. So he, we got divorced and he married the woman that he had left me for and.

Just really just sort of started asking, God, what do you want me to do? You know, I'd been sort of this wife and mother, and I was a mother and certainly very busy with that, and I'd been homeschooling my kids. They finally ended up putting them in school. But, uh, God really impressed upon me through a bunch of friends that maybe I should start writing.

And it was so funny because I have a business degree. Never thought I would write anything. But three friends said to me, you know, I think you should write about your life. And you know, when the third person says that, you think, okay, maybe I need to do that. So I prayed and I said, Lord, just show me. You might need to skywrite this.

Like, I, I have no interest in writing. And then the next day I went to my mailbox and there was this flyer that said, do you wanna write your life? [00:29:00] I'm not kidding. And I thought, okay, wow, that's close to skywriting. Lord. That was pretty good. So I ended up, um, signing up for a class, um, with continuing ed at UNC.

I live in North Carolina and wrote a memoir with my professor actually. But it was just about my childhood. And my professor isn't about atheist, which was kind of funny, but he really liked my story about my childhood. So wrote that. Nobody was super interested in publishing it though. And so my professor said, you know what?

People write blogs nowadays, so maybe you need to start a blog. And I was like, okay, I'll, I'll start a blog. But then I didn't know what to blog about 'cause I wasn't a writer to begin with. This was a memoir about my childhood. But I ended up just thinking, okay, all I know is about how God has met me in suffering.

So I started a blog. And then interestingly, I wrote an email to desiring God. I did not know anybody [00:30:00] there. I had never met anybody there and just wrote an email saying, Hey, I would love to write something for you guys on suffering, because John Piper's theology has shaped me and I'd love to do that. So I got, I think weeks later I got an email back that said, um, yeah, don't, we don't take unsolicited manuscripts, so you know, so sorry.

But if you feel you have to write on this subject, you can send us something. But it needs to be about a thousand words, but nobody, somebody may never read it. So, you know, there's not a lot of encouragement with that. But I, I went with that and prayed about it and ended up writing an article, sending it in over the weekend.

And that Monday, somebody called my past call, uh, emailed me and said, we'd like to talk to your pastor, which is wild. So talked to my pastor and that was up on their blog that week.

Kyle: Oh wow. So,

Vaneetha: you know, when God, you don't, I mean, I knew nobody and, and that God [00:31:00] used that. And so it was this article call and, and

Kyle: just for our listeners, this is a, this is a big deal 'cause I think desire and God gets two, 3 million hits a month.

Yeah. Like on their website, that this is a big, big publishing, uh, or a big powerhouse, I guess you could say in the Yeah. In the Christian world.

Vaneetha: Yeah. I mean, uh, it was so weird that they took that, that it was up there. It was an article called, uh, when God Does The Miracle You Didn't Ask For. And um, I just kind of outlined my life.

And in the article I talked about the difference between sustaining grace and delivering grace and how we all want the miracle, we want the parting of the Red Sea, and that is what we beg God for. And sometimes God does that. He saves our children, he does these miraculous things, but no one wants manna, which is.

The everyday grace of God, it is sustaining us. And yet manna is what draws us to God. Like you see the children of Israel, God parted the Red Sea and the next thing they do is they're complaining like, why did you not, why did you [00:32:00] take us out of Egypt? But manna keeps us dependent on God because that is the food of God.

And so, um, I just wrote about that and um, there's a lot of response for that. So de desire, God emailed me again and said, Hey, would you consider writing for us? So started doing that, which was pretty amazing. They published my first book, which is called The Scars, that Have shaped Me How God meets us in Suffering.

And that is a collection of blog post I'd written. 'cause they just said, would you be willing to do that? So did that, which was pretty amazing. And at the same time, so I'm writing for Desiring God. Um, I hadn't published the book yet. And then I, um. Deci, uh, wasn't sure what I was doing with the rest of my life.

Would, um, would've really wanted to meet somebody else. And my daughter takes me out to coffee and says, you need to get out there. I'm like, yeah, what do you mean? Get out there? And she said, well, you need, you wanna meet somebody, don't you? And I thought, no, I don't. I, I don't know how to do that. So she told me to get online, which I really was [00:33:00] terrified of.

I thought I was gonna meet some psycho, and I, I think I did meet some psychos, but, um,

Kyle: yeah, you did talk about that in the book, which is pretty entertaining. There was

Vaneetha: some, some choice people that I met, but at the same time just kept praying about it. And actually it was, I was online for a couple of years and then decided like, uh, this is not working out.

So I went onto eHarmony to, um, to deactivate when basically I met Joel online. I can tell you the longer version of the story if you wanna hear it later. But, um, so met Joel online and we started communicating and I just really. Loved his heart. One of the first questions I asked him was, who are your favorite authors and pastors?

And he said, uh, Kevin De Young, uh, Paul Tripp and John Piper. And because I was writing for Designer Guide and I, I, I love Paul Tripp, I thought, okay, wow. We are on the same theological page, which,

Kyle: yeah,

Vaneetha: in my book, I, I described that there was a lot of people that said they were believers, but [00:34:00] we were on a very different theological page

Kyle: because p Paul's bio even said something specifically that was a lot different than everyone else.

What, what was that?

Vaneetha: Oh, oh, um, Joel's bio. Yes. Joel's bio. Yeah. The first question. The first question on eHarmony is, what are you passionate about? And a lot of people would say, you know, God, football and family, not necessarily in that order, or something like that. And Joel said, I'm a passionate about Jesus Christ because there's nothing else to be passionate about.

So at that point I realized like, wow, we, we are way more on the same page. And then when I asked that authors and pastors question, I actually screamed out in my house. With a friend who was over, I'm gonna marry this guy. So, um, we met a few, probably a few weeks after that, and then, um, got engaged in, so we met in July, got engaged in November and married in February, so.

Wow.

Kyle: And he's a nuclear scientist, is that correct?

Vaneetha: Yes, he is. Just [00:35:00]

Kyle: a little Si, little side note. Big deal. Yeah.

Vaneetha: Yeah. So he's a, he's a rocket scientist, so yeah. So he's, um, yeah, he's amazing. So we've been married now, um, six and a half years. It'll be seven years in February, which is pretty amazing. And I love the fact that his name is Joel because Joel 2 25 says, I will restore the years though Lucas Tes Eaton and through Joel, God has restored so many things.

Um, Joel is, Joel's just an amazing guy, so,

Kyle: yeah. Awesome. Thank you for sharing all that. Um, so I, I guess have some questions now. So my first question is, uh. We were, I I, I seen you on the live ask Pastor John, uh, last week. Um, I was on that as well. And Pastor John was talking about the fact that he wants to keep people from being a demons and walking away from the faith.

Yeah. And so when you go through as much suffering as, as you did, um, a lot of people would expect you to walk away from God and be angry at God. Did did you have times where you considered that? Uh, or was saying, you know what, I can't do [00:36:00] Christianity. I, I, I'm out. This isn't, this isn't what I want.

Vaneetha: Yeah.

Well, you know, after Paul died, I feel like is probably the time that I most thought it does God even care. But it's interesting because once you really know Jesus, there's nowhere else to go. You know, you look at, you know Peter, you know, Jesus says to. Peter are, you know, are you gonna leave? And he says, you know, where can we go?

You have the words of life. And so realizing like I wasn't opening my Bible after Paul died, I felt very distant, but yet I knew that there was gonna be no peace for me until I really, um, drew near to God again. So for me, there wasn't a, I wanna walk away because I, I knew there was nothing better in the world.

Kyle: Wow. I think, I think it's for many people, uh, especially that aren't of Christian faith, it's so hard to understand that, uh, because it's so against, against the grain. And I think that that reminds me of that quote that you, uh, you talk about in the book, um, from [00:37:00] Frederick, um, ner, uh, I'll, I'll read it here for the listeners.

Um, the love for equals is a human thing of. Friend for friend, brother. For brother. It is to love what is lovely and lovely. The world smiles. The love for the less fortunate is a beautiful thing. The love for those who suffer, for those who are poor, the sick, the failures, the unlovely. This is compassion and it touches the heart of the world.

The love for the more fortunate is a rare thing to love those who succeed or we fail to rejoice without envy, with those who rejoice. The love of a poor, for the rich of the black man, for the white man, the world is always bewildered. Bewildered by its saints. And then there's a love for the enemy. Love for the one who does not love you, but mocks, threatens and inflict plane.

The tortured love for the torturer. This is God's love. It conquers the world. And so you talk about this in the book, how you had a lot of bitterness and that this quote really, um, broke that I guess for you. Talk to me about that.

Vaneetha: Yeah, so it was [00:38:00] interesting 'cause um, this was after my ex-husband left. I, um, but he was my husband at the time.

Um, and I was just very, very angry at him. But also I put a lot of my anger out onto the, um, the woman that, that he left me for. So spent a lot of time thinking about how, uh, I would like to see her suffer. And then was reading this book by Francis Chan Crazy Love, which is where he quotes Frederick Bakner.

And I remember reading it, just thinking, oh my gosh, you know, I don't know if you've ever read something where you feel like God is speaking to you, but you don't wanna read it. You don't wanna hear it. So I read it and I thought, no, God, don't, don't ask me to do anything, uh, about this. 'cause you know, that last line, which is, you know, the tortured love for the torturer, you know.

This is God's love, it changes the world. And that line just made me think, oh my word, she's not a believer. Like, do, is God calling me to do something here? And [00:39:00] in response to that, I remember just lying in bed thinking, I'm not gonna do anything. God, you cannot make me do anything nice for her. But you know, we're no match for the living God.

And so I could say that, but then I just felt like there was like an elephant on my chest. And finally I just got up, it was like 2:00 AM and I went to the computer and I thought, okay, I'm gonna, um, so I was like speaking 'cause I used voice recognition software into the computer, just the gospel, which is not what I wanted to say to her.

And just basically shared, shared the gospel and said, you know, I've wanted to hate you, but I can't because I know. I know Jesus. And I want you to know him too. And it was funny 'cause I sent the letter off and my first response thinking was, oh my gosh, she's gonna think I'm amazing. She's gonna think I'm a saint.

You know, because I thought I was. But then I didn't hear back from her. And, and Dave said, yeah, she got the letter. But she was wondering, you know, did you want anything from her? And I [00:40:00] thought, oh my word. That's her response to this like, heartfelt letter I sent. But the wild thing was, it made me start praying for her because I started praying that, that she would come to Christ.

And it really changed me from, from fantasizing about her being in a car accident, to, to thinking, okay, God, I, I wanna see her know you. And so it was, uh, it was kind of funny. I know there's this song that says, you know, pray for, pray for your enemies or pray for somebody. And it's like, yeah, I pray. You know, I pray that she gets by, gets hit by a car.

I don't know if you know that. Yeah. But it was kind of funny. So that's really how I used to pray. And then I started praying that, that God would really be real to her. And that changed me in ways that I wouldn't have guessed. Like I would not call myself a super kind or nice person, honestly, but I'm the kind of person that really like rolls over like, Ugh, I can't believe they did that to me.

And yet God really freed me from that. And it was. [00:41:00] Just his grace. And so I didn't feel bitter. So when it ended up that he left and um, we got divorced, I was not bitter, which is really a work of God. And you know, it was, it was a tough sort of situation. I didn't mention it necessarily in the book that much, but he had a child with her while we were married.

So that was sort of complicating the situation of would we get back together? And then, um, she was pregnant again when we decided to get divorced. So it was, and when you say like com

Kyle: complicated, the fact that you might get back together like that, I can just imagine a listener thinking why in the sound would she even consider that?

Yeah. And, and then you talked about that in the book a little bit, so un unpack that.

Vaneetha: Yeah. So, uh, Dave, after, um. After they had their child, Dave came to me, or actually when she was pregnant and said, I actually really do wanna get back together. Like, I, I never intended this to be like, [00:42:00] we get divorced and I leave you.

I kind of intended it to be like not. Um,

Kyle: and why did you intend that? Because you, because you loved him or because you believed in the power of God or

Vaneetha: No, no, no. So that's what he said. Oh, okay. That he didn't intend for us to get divorced.

Kyle: Okay.

Vaneetha: Um, I definitely loved him and really believed that God could, could repair anything.

And so I was sort of holding it with an open hand, like, okay, Lord, I'll do whatever you want me to do. I don't know if I'd necessarily want to get back together, but I want what you want. And there is this sense that we sometimes wanna hold on to sort of the, the fairytale ending. Like of Okay. So maybe.

They have this child, she comes to Christ, she marries somebody else. We get back together, our families are friends and we, you know, we just see the power of the gospel. Like that is the story I wanted to tell. I did not want to tell the story of I got divorced. Like that just felt like [00:43:00] failure to me. So that was part of my own stuff of, in the Christian community saying you're divorced seems pretty shameful sometimes, even though it should not be.

But we feel that way. Like somehow, what did you do? Did you not try hard enough? You know, why didn't, don't you believe in the sanctity of marriage and. So that was probably part of it for me. Um, and I think for him we had a good marriage and so I think it was hard for him to kind of realize like, wow, I'm, I'm throwing this away.

And I, I, and I do know, I mean, he's married to this other, um, person and I, I knew know that he loved her too. So I don't want it to sound like, oh, he always wanted me. But I think it was just a really hard thing. 'cause he is a believer and I think thinking like, what is the right thing as well, like married to Benita, I have two daughters with her, now I have a son with somebody else.

Like what is God wanting me to do? So I think it didn't feel very clear to him at that point. And this, and it didn't feel clear to me.

Kyle: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And this letter that you wrote, did you ever, all [00:44:00] these years later get any feedback on it? Um,

Vaneetha: no, but I've seen her, I've seen Tiffany and um, she, we have gotten to know each other and, you know, she's very kind and nice.

We've never talked about the letter, but. Um, yeah, so this was pretty incredible. So my older daughter just got married two months ago, so I saw, uh, Tiffany at the wedding and we sat at, I chose the seating and I decided to sit at the same table with her and Dave. Wow. And my, um, Dave's parents, um, my in-laws or ex in-laws, but really feel like in-laws.

And I just wanted everybody at the wedding to sit to see that the gospel is bigger. Like I don't need to be angry because Jesus died for arsons and Jesus died for all of our sins. And because of the gospel there's reconciliation. And so I really, um, wanted her and Dave, and Dave and I have [00:45:00] really reconciled in terms of friendship.

And, and, and she came up, he came up to me actually and said, I want you to know that your forgiveness of me has changed me. And then she came up to me separately and just thanked me so much for the way I have treated her. And that was pretty incredible to me, for God to very kind for God to give me that 'cause I didn't need to have that.

But it just made me think it's worth it. It's worth it not to be bitter and not to be angry because, one, I was free, but two, it, it really does make a difference.

Kyle: Yeah. Wow. So in, in the church today, there's a lot of bitterness. There's bitterness because of the current political scene, there's bitterness because of how churches are handling COVID.

There's bitterness because of the vaccine. There's bitter, there's, there's, there's bitterness everywhere. So if you could give a message to the church, what, what would it be regarding this having been freed from it, I guess yourself? [00:46:00] Yeah.

Vaneetha: If I could say to the church anything I'd say Jesus calls us to love, you know, the, the commandment is, you know, love one another as I have loved you.

And are we doing that? Are we dying to self or are we trying to hold onto our rights? And, and I say that as somebody who still tries to hold onto my rights. So I'm not saying that in judgment of other people, but the freedom we have when we lay 'em down is unbelievable. And you we're holding on so tightly.

We don't know what freedom feels like, but when we choose to not get angry over little things and we choose to put other people first and to forgive the freedom that happens in our life, I think is unbelievable. I mean, I feel like forgiving Tiffany was probably. The most life-changing thing I did in terms of God's love and God's power flowed through me.

And there's this analogy that I have that, you know, so the branches are grafted into the [00:47:00] vine at the place of wounding. And so it is often in our wounds that we are most tightly grafted in to, to Christ in terms of just the power of God. And I feel like in forgiveness it is, we're always, uh, forgiveness always involves a wound or we wouldn't need to forgive.

I mean, somebody has hurt us in some way. And I think letting us attach to Christ, rather than holding onto it ourselves, but firmly attaching to Jesus and letting his power flow through us is really this feeling and this strength and power that. We can't get any other way. So I feel like forgiveness is like the secret that Christians who've forgiven understand that you never wanna go back to holding onto bitterness because of what it does for you.

Kyle: Yeah. Wow. Um, I know a lot of Christians that [00:48:00] struggle in their marriage, um, and they wanna leave, um, even without infidelity that you experienced, um, with your ex-husband, um, and a lot of them don't know where to go. Uh, you, you've experienced a lot of suffering in, in your marriage. What would you say to this?

What did you need or what did you receive during the times where it was really, really tough? Um, and, and how can we help, uh, each other, I guess, in the marriages that are currently happening that, that are struggling and that we're, we're aware of? How do we help those people?

Vaneetha: Yeah, I would say the biggest way we can help people is one, to pray for them.

'cause we don't know what's going on in in their marriages. But also I think the power of forgiveness, as we just talked about, is the biggest thing in marriages as well. I think it's so easy, I think, for all of us to think about what we've done right and the other person has done wrong. And I think kind of reversing that and really looking at what have we said, how have we tried to serve other [00:49:00] people, um, our spouse, um, and really kind of trying to look at their sins against us in light of the gospel and who Christ is and being willing to overlook and forgive and really look at our own hearts because all of us are selfish.

That's just the way we are. And often when I'm annoyed at my husband, Joel, I realize like, wow, this is because I'm not getting. Something that I want, but how much am I serving him? And almost always I start to see, when I really ask the Lord, I see so much more of what I need to change rather than what he needs to change.

And I think that's the big thing in marriage is realizing like maybe I need to focus on what I need to do differently rather than what my spouse does. But at the same time, you know, there are legitimate reasons why people, even without infidelity, a lot of people deal with like verbal abuse. I mean, I have a friend who, [00:50:00] who had dealt with unbelievable abuse from her spouse.

So, um, I think, you know, just kind of hearing people rather than sort of prescriptively telling them what they need to do is really healing for people. 'cause a lot of times people just wanna be heard and then as we hear them, you know, encouraging them to really put the other person first.

Kyle: Yeah, that's good.

Um, one of the things I.

The details. You go into incredible details, not just of the suffering you experienced, but also some of the things that you felt you were doing wrong about the blowups you had with your kids and, and, and all those things, which I think makes the story so much more powerful. Uh, how hard was that to to, to just be wide open, be like, this is who I am, and and there was just like you held nothing back.

Vaneetha: Yeah, I didn't, and it's so funny 'cause my pastor said to me, I asked him to read it because he was in a lot of those scenes with my ex-husband and I wanted to make sure I was really accurate. [00:51:00] And he said to me after he read it, he said, are you sure you wanna put this out there? He said, this is pretty vulnerable.

And I said, I know. I, I mean, it was actually pretty crazy after I turned it in. I thought, do I really want all those people to know this about me? But at the same time, I feel like there is so much power in people being vulnerable because a lot of stuff happens in our homes and we say things we wanna pull back.

And I feel like. I have grown the most when people are willing to be real and tell me and show me what they have done versus kind of gloss it over with, Hey, I said some things I shouldn't have said to my kids. Well, we go lots of different places with that. And I wanted people to know you can say some pretty bad things and God can really redeem that.

And so that's what, and they can say some really hard things to you. So I felt like when we speak in generalities, I don't feel like that helps people that much. 'cause we all fill in the blanks with our own things and then we all think nobody else is as bad as we are. [00:52:00]

Kyle: Yeah.

Vaneetha: And that's not true. And so we feel separated and I wanted to say, this is how it is because I think that offers people more hope.

Kyle: And so would you encourage people that, um, right now are saying the, the generalities to, um, just be wide open? Of course, you're, you're encouraged to do that. It may be like a small group or a, a close friend where you can be wide open. But I mean, like, being publicly wide open, like do, is there, um, would you encourage people to do that or would you just encourage people to do that?

Just make sure, find a few people that you're close with and just like hide nothing.

Vaneetha: Yeah. I would say the, the latter. Find a few people that you're close with and hide nothing. I mean, I, I wrote it in a, a book because I wanted to help people, but it's not like I would get up at the school PTA and say, guess what I just did to my kids?

Yeah. You know, like you need to have a point to it. So if you're sharing with somebody who's really struggling with parenting and they're not in your small group, but you realize like, [00:53:00] I've made a lot of mistakes. Then definitely share it, but you don't need to overshare everything that's ever happened in your life because, you know, there's people involved.

I had to get permission from my kids because I was sharing their stuff too. And, and we have to be really careful about that. So I think if you're sharing somebody else's stuff, you need to be pretty careful and get their, get their permission. Um, but the reason I did it is because I thought it would be helpful.

And so I think looking at your motivation and who you're talking to and why

Kyle: Yeah. Um,

Vaneetha: makes a difference.

Kyle: I, I definitely agree though that generalities don't help. I, I just think of like my own small group. It's really easy to go in after two weeks and be like, yeah, I had a tough two weeks. Please pray for me.

Um, versus actually telling them. Um, but also I think like, um. I've heard my people I really respect in my life say they've struggled with sin, for example, as believers. And I said, oh, okay. So that means when you're a believer, you struggle with sin. But I never knew about the specifics. And if they would've said [00:54:00] like, I really struggle with the love of money, I just like, I just want as much money as I can, and that's my big sin, uh, they'd be like, oh, wow.

Like you're, you can be a Christian and still really struggle with this. And I think getting specific, I think that really shows the, I guess, the realness of it. So I, I, I love that part about the book. I

Vaneetha: totally agree with that. I think, I think being specific that way about what we're struggling with, I, I think just.

Brings healing. And I think people find hope in the gospel then, because we always feel like, oh, I'm struggling with this. Is anybody else? Am I different? And I think when believers are willing to say, wow, this is hard. I think vulnerability always draws people, I think,

Kyle: to

Vaneetha: us and to the Lord.

Kyle: Yeah. Um, as the divorce happened and your, your kids are in their, their teenage years and growing up in the church, were they, um, bullied or, or, or any of that, um, because of their parents, uh, had separated or things like that?

Vaneetha: Yeah. Yeah. So that was a hard thing in our church. I love our church, but they both said like, [00:55:00] people were kind of whispering, like, I wonder what happened. And, you know, the, they just felt different. We were before, honestly, like the perfect Christian family. Like my husband was really involved in the church, or my ex-husband and I was teaching women's Bible study, so we looked great.

We, I was homeschooling the two girls and so I think. Just what other people thought and people were whispering or about them not, not necessarily trying to be cruel, but at the same time just wondering what happened. And I think even sleepovers and all of those things, like we were all of a sudden that divorced family, you know?

And so I think there was quite a bit of just feeling a little alienated, you know, their good friends didn't do that, but then the people that, that were just sort of one circle back did more.

Kyle: Yeah. In the book you talk about, um, clinging to God, not the outcome. Mm-hmm. Uh, which I think is, um, which often like to cling to the outcome we want.

I guess you talked [00:56:00] earlier about that you hoped that, um, everything would be repaired 'cause that's the beautiful gospel story. Mm-hmm. Why is it important to not cling to what you want the outcome to be, but to cling to God?

Vaneetha: It's important to cling to God because we don't know what the outcome's gonna be.

And if we, if we hang our lives on the outcome, then we're gonna be disappointed because we're not God and we don't know what he's wanting. I mean, my good outcome would've been a son who was saved and a body that works well and a marriage that was put back together. And yet I didn't get those outcomes.

And yet I got more of God through all of those things. And honestly, I wouldn't trade my life for anybody's. I would go, I don't wanna walk through those things again. But

Kyle: yeah,

Vaneetha: to know the Lord the way I do, uh, I. I'm so grateful for them.

Kyle: Yeah. So what, so what for you is the difference between, uh, I guess confusing God's power with his, his promises?

Vaneetha: Hmm. Yeah. So [00:57:00] God, God can do anything. I mean, God could raise the dead. God could certainly have done any of those things that I was begging him to do, and so believing that, that God is able to do that, but yet he has different plans for us. And you know, there is not a molecule in the universe that is not under God's sovereignty.

So there is nothing that God can't do. But yet we don't understand why, why things happen the way they do. I, I don't understand them, and yet I do believe that they all happen that. The works of God would be made manifest through them. And I will not know till heaven what all of that means. But I trust that God's presence is enough right now, and knowing that God has a purpose, even though I won't see it is enough.

Um, so that I believe that he has the power, but he doesn't need to show it to me.

Kyle: Yeah. Uh, you wrote an article a few years ago. Um, what does it mean to be [00:58:00] blessed? It's probably my favorite article that you've ever written. Oh, wow. And I love the Porsche on the, the picture of the top. Um, but the reason I bring that up is because, um, you say the biggest gift God has given you is your suffering.

Mm-hmm. Um. Why, why is that the biggest gift God has given you? And and is that what it means to be blessed?

Vaneetha: Yeah. Well it was interesting 'cause I wrote that article, uh, what does it mean to be hashtag Blessed? Because I kept noticing, and I'm not even on social media very much, but like, you know, people even use that word all the time.

Like, I'm so blessed to have, you know, gotten this great job or we're so blessed that, you know, all this great stuff happened and it's, it was sort of this way to have a humble brag, like Blessed was an easy way to say, you know, got a scholarship and so just. Really just started thinking what does blessed mean in the Bible?

And went through every reference in the New Testament. And I was sort of shocked that none of the references to being blessed had anything to do with great [00:59:00] circumstances, but they had to do with drawing near to God, often in suffering. And that really has been my experience as well, is the more I have suffered, the closer I've gotten to God.

And you know, Johnny Erickson taught us, says, you know, the deeper the pain, the deeper the pain, the closer the embrace. And I think that's really true. So I do think being hashtag blessed or being blessed is anything that brings us closer to God. And suffering is probably the thing that in a lot of ways can bring us closest to God.

Yeah. When we turn to him in it.

Kyle: Yeah. You don't, I've actually never, I was thinking about this a while back. We were talking to one of my buddies about it. You never really hear a story of a Christian that grew super close to God through a, a load of blessings. It just, yeah. Even though they might be thankful for them, it just doesn't happen that they're like, I just, I was so much closer to God when I, when I got a yacht.

Vaneetha: Yeah, exactly. I mean, never or something.

Kyle: Yeah.

Vaneetha: Yeah. I mean, nobody says my life [01:00:00] was really bad. Then I got saved. God gave me all these things and I was so much closer to him. The more stuff I got, like you hear people say, had a hard life, but then those things drew me from God. Like that's what people say and that's what happened to me.

'cause we, um, you know, I got this dream job when I was in Boston, went to Stanford for grad school, um, got everything I wanted. And that is actually when I drifted from God the most was, um, probably in my mid twenties. Late twenties was when I had everything I wanted. And it was really as God stripped things away that I got more of God and less of stuff.

Kyle: Yeah. So I know, I know a lot of people want God to help 'em through suffering, but they don't think they need God, uh, for salvation. And we know that we don't just need God for our daily needs to help through suffering, but more importantly, eternal life. So. As you tell your story, 'cause I'm sure you have to tell it many times, you're going on many podcasts, stuff like that.

Where, where does that fit [01:01:00] in? Because I think, I think that's really key that, um, for people to hear that yes, God will bring you through the suffering, but more importantly that that's, that's not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is that we've, um, rejected his son and we need to be reconciled to him.

Vaneetha: Right. You know, our biggest problem in life. Isn't suffering or circumstances, it's sin. You know, that's, that's why Christ came. And you know, it's interesting 'cause you see, when he heals the paralytics, the first thing you know, the friends drop him through the, the roof. And the first thing he says is, your sins are forgiven.

Because that's what we need. Like, that's the greatest gift. And then he looks around and is like, well, you know, just so you know, I can do this stuff like get up and walk. But I think that's such a good picture of like, your sins are forgiven. Is is why we need Jesus. That is, you know, we are eternally separated from God because of our sin and that that's why we have suffering anyway.

I mean, that's all a result of the fall, but [01:02:00] Christ may came to make. Us, uh, right with God so we can be with him forever. And whatever happens in this life is over in the blink of an eye and we have eternity. And that's why he came, is so that we can have eternity with God. Um, and I mean, he came for lots of reasons.

I mean, we can experience heaven, honor earth here because we have his presence, we have the spirit, but ultimately it's all what we have is heaven. And that was, you know, I love Randy Alcorn says, happily ever after is a blood bot promise for those of us in Christ.

Kyle: Yes, your best life later.

Vaneetha: Yeah, exactly.

Kyle: So you say it took 10,000 nights.

This is from the book. It took, took 10,000 nights to learn the lessons of God's spirit, uh, was teaching you in the pain and you would not give up a moment, uh, if your pain, if it meant that you had to unlearn those lessons. Um, and that's often impossible to see you when you are on day 500 or day 5,000, um, of a person suffering.

And there's a lot of people [01:03:00] suffering in this world. So I, I guess as we close this conversation, what, what would you say to the people listening that are on day 500 and day 5,000? I can't see the picture that you've now seen looking back of your life, um, where you've learned those lessons, but they're still, they don't, might not know it, but they're learning the lessons.

Vaneetha: Yeah. I would say to people who are sort of in the middle of it, one. Be brave enough to lament, like, call out to God. You don't need to do this on your own. You don't need to act like it's all okay and one day things will, you know, somehow turn around, like draw after to God right now and tell him exactly how you're feeling.

Because for me it is being really honest with God and vulnerable. Um, you know, we talked about being vulnerable with our friends, but just being vulnerable with God. Like, this is hard and I wanna walk away, but I, I don't, I I wanna be with you. So I would say just keep talking to God. Don't, don't ever stop.

Ask him [01:04:00] to draw near to you. Ask him for his presence. And I would say open the Bible and ask God. Please speak to me. I mean, I remember just saying, I kind of like Jacob. I'm not gonna let you go until you bless me. You know, I'm, I'm not leaving my quiet time until I hear from you and God speaks, uh, you know, somebody once said, you know, God is always talking, but are we listening?

And I think just asking God to attune our ears, to hear his grace, to, to know that he really is in our minivan and he really is beside us when we're reading the word. So that even when our circumstances haven't changed, we have a different sense of what living through those means. Because I don't think you wanna go through 5,000 days of slogging it out, just thinking, okay, one day there's heaven.

I mean, certainly we want that one day there's heaven. But in those 5,000 days, we want God to infuse them. Maybe our [01:05:00] circumstances aren't better or changed, and maybe we live in agony and maybe life is really hard. But we wanna cry out to God to say, draw near to me because that's how we make it through 10,000 nights.

Kyle: And I guess on the, on the flip side of that question, I, I know a lot of people that in many ways say they are super blessed and they're having a great life now, and they're not suffering. And um, so I guess what, what would you tell your. Um, yourself in your older twenties when everything was going well, uh, like to the people that aren't, seem not to be suffering in this life, which I know is rare, but what, what, what would you say to those people?

Uh, as most likely they will experience it one day. Um, but yeah,

Vaneetha: I would say to people who are not suffering that thi that feel like, you know, life is great right now, I would say, you know, enjoy what God has given you. I'm happy that God is honestly blessing you with those things. But don't [01:06:00] put your value in those things and don't base your life on those things.

'cause they might be here and they might be gone, but God will, the Word of God and God himself will last forever.

Kyle: Yep. That's awesome. Well, I, uh, thank you very much for doing this podcast. It, it means a lot. Uh, I very much appreciate the fact that you wrote the book and you keep writing. 'cause I think it's been super helpful for a lot of people.

Uh, my mom was telling me a while back how much she enjoys your writing. Um, I she think she'll be thrilled I got the chance to, uh, talk with you. So, um, and for everyone listening, uh, walking Through Fire, a memoir of Loss and Redemption, um, I think you can find it on Amazon, so you can put the camera here.

But yeah, it's, it's an wonderful book. So thanks again. I really appreciate it.

Vaneetha: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on, Kyle.

Kyle: No worries.

Vaneetha: Great. How did it sound, Tim?

Kyle: Sound good, Tim

Cameraman: sounded great. Good job.

Kyle: Awesome.

Vaneetha: Great.

Kyle: How were the questions? How did I do compared to the other? All the other podcasts you've been [01:07:00] on?

Vaneetha: Good. Good. Yeah. That was it. It was longer. Most podcasts aren't quite this long, so it was, it was, it's good. We got to talk about more things than I usually get to, so

Kyle: Oh, good. I'm, I'm a rookie at this, so I, uh, I'm always like, I had to make sure I, I listened to the book all week long, so I had Oh, wow. I, uh, I think I listened to it, the whole book in like three days.

Oh wow. Make it, making notes and, and trying to, uh, I guess get, get, get, get as much out of it as possible. So

Vaneetha: yeah, you, you really did a great job in terms of, um, yeah, knowing the book and asking really good questions from it. So yeah, I think you did a great job on that.

Kyle: Awesome. Well, I appreciate it.

Hopefully, uh, we get a meetup again one day at another, uh, desire and God retreat when they, whenever they come back on.

Vaneetha: Yeah, whenever there's another one. So when will the podcast air I'd love to, uh,

Kyle: in January.

Vaneetha: January. Okay. Yeah. So send me an email or something, lemme know. Yes,

Kyle: I will. Yeah. I'll send you an email and then you can share it or do whatever you want with it.

So, um, yeah.

Vaneetha: Okay. Sounds perfect.

Kyle: Awesome. Thanks am. All right.

Vaneetha: Well, you guys have a great night or likewise. For me it's night, but [01:08:00] maybe's for you.

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