How to Survive the Death of Your Child - Season 1 Episode 3

October 2, 2020

How to Survive the Death of Your Child - Season 1 Episode 3

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Kyle: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to the Furies The Curious Show. I'm your host, Calvin Ruttenberg. This is a show that learns about people's worldviews, beliefs, and stories from people around the world. How I grew up and what I was taught shaped me and what I believe. Now I wanna learn about other people's stories, beliefs, worldviews, and how they got there.

New episodes drop every other Friday.

Today in the show we have William Clawson. William is the founder and principal of Blue Giraffe, a consulting and coaching firm. He has a firm belief that leadership is influence and that everyone is a leader in their own right. William, welcome to the show.

William: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Kyle: No worries.

Did you know that one of the biggest reasons I have this show is 'cause of you?

William: I, no. Tell me more about that.

Kyle: Well, you, you're pushing me to, uh, to do it, uh, definitely had a big part in, uh, getting started. So, but I want, I wanna start with, uh, the article you wrote, um, and the TED Talk you did, uh, on how to eat thorns.

Mm-hmm. [00:01:00] Um, can you explain that to the audience? What, what that means? Eating thorns?

William: Yeah. So I guess the basic concept of a thorn is, uh, it's a shaming, a judging, a hating or any kind of me, any kind of message that we get or send or receive. Um, maybe we send 'em out, maybe we, we, we get 'em in that, that hurts.

So it's a judging, shaming, hating message. And that is a thorn. It pokes like a thorn and, and it feels like a thorn when it, when it goes down. So the whole idea behind how to eat thorns is that if we can learn to be like the giraffe who is, who knows how to eat thorns and digest thorns, um, that within each thorn there is.

What, uh, this, I'm borrowing this from Marshall Rosenberg, within each thorn is what is, is an unmet need. So the, the, the core concept is that every expression of violence or, or anger or hate or anything like that is nothing more than a tragic expression of an unmet need. So inside that thorn, when I throw something out there that, or, or I receive it, it's really that person or myself expressing an unmet need.

So if we can learn to digest those [00:02:00] thorns like a draft does

Kyle: Yeah.

William: And, and digest it and get that nutrient inside, which is the unmet need, then we start communicating at a completely different level. So, so that's the, that's the basic premise of the, of the talk.

Kyle: So, uh, on, on how, uh, giraffe each a thorn.

Briefly explain that.

William: Yeah. So what a draft actually does. So first of all, a little, uh, background on the draft. The draft loves the, the leaves of an acacia tree. Well, the acacia tree has its own defense mechanism, which are these like 10 centimeter thorns or eight, seven to eight 10 centimeter thorns that grow out of the, the branches.

So the giraffe has a real hard time getting at the leaves. So when the draft is stripping the leaves off the branch, sometimes a thorn enters its mouth and this thorn will then poke the giraffe in the mouth. But the giraffe saliva is antiseptic. So a draft's mouth will never have a festering wound 'cause it's antiseptic.

And furthermore, the saliva then is so thick it coats the thorn and allows the thorn to slide down without poking the esophagus or anything on the way down. And then in the belly or in the stomach, [00:03:00] the, the, the enzymes break the thorn down.

Kyle: And so then you use that example on how we as humans can eat thorns.

And you start your. Ted talk with asking, is the world a violent place? Mm-hmm. And you say, yes, it is a violent place. Explain

William: that. Um, well, and the world is a violent place. 'cause if we look at the definition of violence, the definition of violence is the ability to harm. Uh, and, and so if, if I have words that have the ability to harm, then technically they're violent.

So when I'm judging someone or saying they're dumb or they're stupid, or I, I I I don't like them or I hate them, um, those are, those are violent messages. 'cause they have the ability to harm. So, so in that sense, yes, it's a very violent world because we're constantly doing that and, and we're, you know, in a, we make decisions, but with that same mechanism in our brain that we make decisions, we also tend to judge other people at which, which is where the violence is.

Kyle: Yeah. So. And you explain then, um, it's important as for us as humans to be able to, [00:04:00] uh, when someone accuses us or gives us a thorn in, in, in variety of different ways, is how to manage that and how to take that in. That's right. So you have four steps and you, uh, and you tie it as an analogy to how a giraffe each a thorn.

Walk me through

William: that. Yeah, so, so, um, you know, tying the analogy in really tight, I, I can try to do that. I don't do it quite in the TED talk 'cause it's a, it's a 15 minute talk. But, um, so the, the very first thing is when someone throws a thorn at you, or even you throw it at someone else, it hurts. Right. So, and that, and that's, and that's literally what happens to a thorn too.

When a draft chomps down on a thorn, it hurts. Yeah. Um, if the saliva hasn't yet coded it. And that's kind of the same premise. So when someone says something shameful or hating, to me that hurts. That's the first step. And the, the hurt is not the words they use. The hurt is because of, of, of the pain I'm feeling and the pain I'm feeling.

And that's, that's the part where the analogy, um, you know, goes into more the human side. But, so when I chomped down on that thorn, [00:05:00] it's because I, at that time, that message to me affected me. It, it basically challenged, uh, an unmet need that I may have. Right. So, um, say for example, if someone says to me, you know, you're, you're reckless or you're, you're dumb, then.

I'm going to chomp down on that if that raises a negative feeling in me. 'cause that's gonna hurt.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: But if that doesn't, if that bounces off of me and I, it doesn't affect me. Say for example, 'cause context is really important. If we're roleplaying and someone says that to me, suddenly it doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't hurt. Yeah. So it's not the thorn that hurts. It's the feeling that arises in me that's causing that hurt. Um, because if you would say to me, you're reckless and we're roleplaying something, it doesn't hurt. Yeah. But if you say it to me and I just did something reckless, then it's because I know I have an unmet need that that came up for me.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: Or a feeling, uh, a negative feeling. And that's what hurt. So. So that's the very, very first, and I know I'm going probably pretty deep here pretty quick, but that's the very first part is [00:06:00] that. The, the, that negative feeling or that pain that I have is because of my unmet needs at that time too. So someone may have thrown a, Hey, you're reckless.

'cause they have an unmet need. But then the pain, I feel, is because of some unmet need that I have because I have So, so what would be one of your unmet needs in that situation? I, I need to be competent. Or if someone says, I hate you, I have a need to be loved. Okay. Like, so we're not talking just food, water, shelter.

We're talking the, the need for commitment, the need for belonging, the need for love, the need for, for, for sexual expression, the need for our, our own expression or our freedom of expression. All those are core needs of a human being. Yeah. And um, and those core needs when they're being challenged. Then I, I start getting negative feelings.

And, and that's the, that's probably kind of step two, if you will, that once I start realizing that my feelings are my barometer for whether my needs are being met or not. 'cause if someone gives me a warm hug, I can get a positive feeling. Yeah. My needs are being met. When someone says I hate you, I get a [00:07:00] negative feeling.

My needs are not being met. So it's almost like my feelings are my communication center from my body telling me, Hey, you got needs that are not being met right now. Okay. And if we can tune into that, that's the very first step of chomping down on that, on that thorn.

Kyle: So Will, so Williams my neighbor, he throw, he throws a baseball into my house, breaks the window.

Mm-hmm. I call you reckless. Yep. You feel a thorn. What's the next step? How, how, how, how can you be like a giraffe and not yell back? Um, yeah. But you burn out every morning when you leave the house and you almost drive into people.

William: Yeah. So, so it's, it's, uh, where, where I always start. And I don't wanna make it complex 'cause it's, it's a multi-stage approach.

It's not just something you can learn overnight and, and suddenly we're doing it because we've, we're so ingrained in whatever age we are. That's how many years we've been ingrained in this judgmental culture of, of throwing thorns around. And there's some cultures that are so good at it, they don't even get affected by 'em anymore.

And, uh, you know, um, like our Dutch culture is [00:08:00] pretty good at that, right? Yeah. Um, and, and 'cause we're just, we just say what we, what we think and, and that's just the way it is. And it, I didn't mean any harm by it, we just said what we think. So, so it's so ingrained. So the very first step is to realize that when I said you're reckless.

You know, so it depends on which, if, if I'm the the person who threw the ball, the very first thing I should do is when I'm hear somebody say that to me, that I'm being reckless, that's gonna trigger a, a, a feeling inside of me, a negative feeling. And that negative feeling is what's gonna cause me to then say, yeah, but you.

Right. So, yeah. So it's my negative feeling that then stirs up all this adrenaline to get back at that person.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: And all I'm doing at that point is spitting another thorn back.

Kyle: Okay.

William: So that's my very first step is that I talk about, I don't know if you you wanna get into that right now, but I talk about how there's basically four ways to digest, to eat a thorn.

Mm-hmm. Or to non eat a thorn. There's four ways to handle a thorn.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: And the very first positive way to handle a thorn is to understand that when I throw, when I feel a thorn, [00:09:00] I'm most likely going to start feeling that pain to throw one back. So, so that's the, the, the, probably the very first step is, first let's observe what happened.

So you, you talked about the four steps. Yeah. The very first step is the observation. Actually know what's actually happening. I threw a ball and it hit my neighbor's window or smashed my neighbor's window. Pure observation. There's no judgment in there. It wasn't, um, it wasn't bad or good or anything. It was just.

The ball got thrown and it hit the window.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: That then triggered some kind of a feeling for the neighbor, which is step two. So the first step is observation. The second step is feeling it. The neighbor yelled something at me. I already had a, a feeling of incompetence probably because I, I just broke my neighbor's window.

Yeah. Regardless of how reckless I may be, it's still not a good feeling to break something. Right? Yeah. So then they call me reckless. Now I got a double thorn. Yeah, right. I got a thorn that I, I threw out myself saying, oh, I'm so stupid. Why did I do that? And then they say, you're reckless. Now I've got two thorns to chomp down on.

So the, the [00:10:00] second step is understand that feeling. That feeling is coming from an unmet need of ours. And once we do that step, then we can go to saying, well, where did that feeling come from? And that's step three, which is the need. And, and the need in that case is my need for being a, a, a nice neighbor, for being loved, for being competent, you know, all that.

Um, so that's where my feelings are coming from. 'cause if I. Was if I hadn't hit the window and the neighbor was just talking to me, I wouldn't have that feeling, but because of, of my need for being a competent person and I just failed. Yeah. That, that's where that feeling comes from. Okay. So I, I know we probably need to unpack that

Kyle: a little bit.

Yeah. And that's fine. So, so I guess my fir I'm gonna jump in here 'cause someone listening is gonna be like, you're talking a lot about feelings. Yeah. Uh, I'm not much of a feelings guy. Um, this is, I'm gonna turn this, this podcast off. Now I'm gonna wait for the next one to come out. So, uh. Explain that this is not just some like mushy stuff, but like that it [00:11:00] actually, no matter who you are, if you're, uh, like Hitler or if you're like, I don't know, um, the Dalai Lama, um, you're, you, you have just as many feelings and, um, you're affected by this just as much.

And we all have unmet needs when, um, we get accused of something or these things like that.

William: Yeah. You know, I'm not gonna claim that everyone has the same amount of feelings because I feel, I think feelings are very relative to our context, to our worldview, to, to who we are and what we, because, um, you know, because, you know, if I've experienced a lot of trauma in my life, I'm going to experience feelings in a very, very different way than if I haven't.

So, so I, I'll never claim that we all have the same level of feelings or even even the same feelings, period, or even, you know, the same intensity of feelings that, that that would not, that wouldn't, that wouldn't work. Um, because we're all very different human beings. But what I, what I can say is that.

Feelings are not mushy. I, I'm very, very, very concrete, and I talk about this in my TED talk too, is that I'm not a counselor talking about all these mushy emoji [00:12:00] feelings. It's really a negative feeling is, is my body telling me you have an unmet need, A positive feeling is my body saying you have a met need.

It's that simple. A feeling is nothing more than a communication method. It's like you and I are talking right now. I think we need to shift our perspective is that the feelings that arise in me are just my body talking to me. So if I've experienced a lot of trauma in my life, my body's gonna scream a lot louder.

And that's why we have traumatic and PTSD and stuff. 'cause it's, it's our body just screaming absolutely loudest, saying somebody needs to help me

Kyle: Yeah.

William: Through this. And so that's, that's, that's my definition of a feeling is that it is nothing more than a communication mechanism from our body to our brain.

And, and, and, and we feel that sensory and we feel that

Kyle: emotionally. Okay. That makes sense. So going back to the example, um. The, I guess it's kind of an interesting example because it didn't start with an intentional, um, reckless thing like the, let's say the ball, uh, went through the window [00:13:00] as, as an accident, but let's say it needed it on purpose.

Um, I yell back at you. Uh, first of all, I guess I have an unmet need, if you can use that term, when the ball hit the window. So my unmet need of feeling secure, I guess would be one of them that my, like you, when when my ball hit your window, you mean? Yeah. So let's say exactly so that the, the, the owner, the neighbor that whose, whose window got wrecked, they have an unmet need that their sense of security has gone now.

Yeah. Safety. Security, yeah. Even privacy to some degree. Right. So because of that, I need they yell back instead of yelling back. What can that person do that resembles the giraffe?

William: Well, the very first thing they should do is, is, is understand that their yelling is only coming from a place of their own feelings of, of their own negative feelings at that time.

So that feeling of anger comes from a place of their unmet safety, their unmet security. Right. So

Kyle: if, but, but don't they have that, right? Like, like someone say, yeah. If, if, if someone smashes your window, you have the right to yell back. Like, [00:14:00] why, why, why would, what do you mean they have the right, I, I'm not sure I would agree that anybody has the right to yell.

Okay. But that's how a lot of people think is like, someone wrecks my stuff. I have the right to defend myself and ex express. Mm-hmm. To say you're an idiot for doing that. So why is it better to do it, um, to first understand your unmet needs and then to deal with it the way you, you're suggesting?

William: Mm-hmm.

So basically is, if I would say you're an idiot for doing that, first of all is how do I know they're an idiot for doing that? I, I don't even know that because I don't know if it was intentional or not intentional, and even if it was, that person only did it because of an unmet need on their behalf as well.

So if it was an intentional, as an example, if it was intentional, maybe there's some past hurt that they think the best way to do it is get more pain. So the whole premise of this is, is that if we just keep slinging thorns back and forth, all we're doing is spitting thorns at each other and hurting each other.

And the worst part about spitting thorns at each other is that the. Eventually we start spitting 'em out ourselves or even before that, [00:15:00] and we're like, yeah, I am so stupid. And then we're actually not spitting it out. We're just taking the thorn and letting it poke all the way down into our, into our stomach without coating it with saliva.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: So the whole premise of is if I say I have the right to, to throw a judgment at someone, then really I'm saying that, that we should just keep slinging thorns. So, so, yeah. I, I don't buy that We have the right, what we do have the right to do is say, Hey, that, that, that really makes me angry when I see my window this way.

And, you know, can, can you, can we talk about this? Can you tell me what's going on here? And now, trust me, that's not a one day process because we, here's, there's a statistic out there that. I think it's 30, it's, it's 30 to 40% of people can only identify an emotion as it happens. So in a clinical situation, this is in a lab, only about 30 to 40% of people can actually identify an emotion as it happens or a feeling.

So, and you can, and they can't be taught afterwards either. So yes, it can be. [00:16:00] Okay. And that's, and that's, there's, there's a whole school of thought called eq, which is emotional intelligence, right? Yeah. And that's kind of along those lines.

Kyle: Okay.

William: Um, so Dr. Travis Bradbury quotes that statistic in his book, emotional Intelligence.

And so the whole concept of that is, if we think about that in a clinical lab situation, we can only about identify an emotion 30 to 40% of the time as it's happening. Can you only imagine if we got six emotions or feelings happening at the same time in a very volatile situation? I, I, I'm, I'm betting that we're in the 10 to 15% of actually identifying the feeling.

And now here's the key. If I can identify the feeling, I can then identify the need underneath. So I've already. Gotten dragged into this quagmire of emotions and now we're just throwing emotions at each other. Yeah. So the whole premise is, is if I can understand that I became angry when the ball hit my window.

That anger comes from my unmet need, not from the ball or anything, it's just the ball caused an event. That event then had one of my needs not getting met. And [00:17:00] then the feelings come from that. And then if I go to that place, suddenly we can talk about the ball and the, and how it should not hit my window.

Rather than You're an idiot. I'm an idiot. You're dumb, I'm dumb, kind of thing. Right? Right. So you get, so you go, you go to the root of the issue, basically. You go to the real issue. Ab, absolutely. So if someone says, you're driving recklessly, it would be much better if we're saying you're really hitting the sidewalk a lot.

Because recklessly is my judgment of what it's like to drive it. You know, I'm driving with my 16-year-old daughter. I think everything's reckless. But when, when I'm driving myself, I don't see those things as reckless. 'cause we have biases. Yeah. So it's much better if we could actually speak very first point, observe, Hey, I noticed you just hit the sidewalk.

Hey, I noticed the ball hit my window. That's way less judgmental than you're reckless. And we know that there's, there's evidence out there. It's fascinating research in the last five to 10 years that when I feel judged, my learning center shuts down. So [00:18:00] if you, if you start judging me saying you're dumb or you're I reckless my ability to learn, start shutting down.

Okay. So let's take the driving

Kyle: example. I feel that if, if we're driving together and I'm slamming into curbs. And you say, Hey, I noticed you're slamming into curbs.

William: I don't, and I I I wouldn't even use the word slamming. I would say you're hitting the curb. Okay. 'cause slamming is, is a judgment of how hard,

Kyle: okay.

William: So you're

Kyle: say, hitting into curbs, my perception of that's gonna be not, not a judgment. So then I'm also gonna think it must not be that big of a deal to William if you said you're driving like an idiot. I would change my driving a lot quicker

William: if you're, if you're, if you're gonna process that thorn. But that's the thing we're now expecting everybody to be able to process.

You're an idiot in any situation. Whereas, if I would, so let's take this back one step. If I would say the observation first, Hey, I noticed you're hitting the curb. That's making me really anxious because I, I, I'm feeling pretty unsafe right now. Yeah. That [00:19:00] says just as much as, or probably way more than you're an idiot.

Right. Okay. And that's, that's, you're an idiot for hitting,

Kyle: you're an idiot for hitting the curb. So you're saying it's better to say, you're making me feel anxious for hitting the curb. Than you're an idiot.

William: Yeah, absolutely. Saying, Hey, I'm getting really anxious and I'm feeling pretty unsafe. Or actually, I think I'm pretty unsafe.

'cause I noticed you keep hitting the curb is much more informative than you're an idiot. Yeah. Or because we often do that, we condense all this language into one or two words and expect the other person to hear us. Right?

Kyle: Yeah.

William: So, so we do it to someone or kids or whoever it is, we say, don't be so stupid.

What do I actually mean?

Kyle: Yeah.

William: It, it, it would be much better if you say, Hey, you're talking really loud. And, and I'm just, I, I think that people are kind of not appreciating that right now. That's a lot more informative than Don't be so stupid or something. Right?

Kyle: Yeah. Or don't be so stupid. You're, you're talking don't be so stupid.

Um, you're talking way too loud. What? Like, why can't you say

William: that? Because of the, the research I just quoted that when I [00:20:00] say, don't be so stupid, your learning center shuts down. Okay. So when your learning center shuts down, and now I add the piece, you're talking to loud. I'm say, no, I'm not. Because my learning center shut down and all I wanna do is, is protect myself.

My defense mechanisms come up. 'cause we're, we're, we're, we're, we're ingrained to defend ourselves, to keep ourselves alive. So when someone triggers that pain center, by the way, the pain center is the same pain center that is triggered in a physical pain. Right? Yeah. So, so, um, if I physically hit my thumb, I'm gonna feel the emotional side just as much as if someone throws a ball at me or, or, or breaks my window.

So that same pain center triggers. So when I say, don't be so stupid, you should, you should drive straighter. Then basically what I've done is I've first kind of told them to shut down their brain center and then I wanna teach 'em something and I, so it's kind of working against each other. Okay. Whereas if I say, Hey, I noticed you're hitting the curb a little bit, it's kind of making me feel anxious.

Now I own the feeling as, as the, the speaker and I'm saying, so I'm wondering if you could drive a little straighter, [00:21:00] and I haven't done anything to, to intentionally shut down their learning center.

Kyle: So if I'm understanding what you're saying is that the, the key to all of this is being able to realize your unmet needs

William: quickly.

Yes. And the path to that is know that a feeling is your communication, your feelings are telling you, okay, so

Kyle: like I'm, I'm in Square A, like I've never been to the gym before, like that kind of thing. How do I learn how to, in a practical way to um, when my, I come home and I hop on the couch and grab a beer and don't help clean up the house or get my son ready for supper.

Um, and my wife tells me, um, X, you're not helping, uh, how do I, uh, or soon to be ex No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. I didn't mean it that way, but yes, I know. I'm kidding. Yeah. That, that, that's not, uh, that I, that I can learn basically to interpret that un as an unmet need and then deal with the unmet [00:22:00] need. Yeah.

Rather than the accusation. Yeah. How can I learn how to get better at that? I would

William: say before you get better at, uh, uh, interpreting her unmet need, I think we need to interpret our own. Okay. So, so, so it becomes, from self-awareness, I can only be other aware. It's kind of like this whole concept of empathy.

Um, it's such a big buzzword right now, and I don't want to go into a tangent on that, but empathy is, is, is, I can't do empathy to someone else unless I do it to myself first. Like, it's this whole self-awareness piece. I can't be aware unless I'm self-aware. Um, so, so that's the, the very first point is that when.

Someone says something to me or 'cause say for example, your wife says something to you, and that triggers a feeling in you that it why? 'cause you wanna be a competent husband. You wanna be a competent partner, spouse, whatever father. Um, so when she says, Hey, you're being lazy, or You're doing this, it's gonna trigger a feeling in you.

So that's where we need to start. And you may not be able to start right then in the moment. So I think we need to be, um, non-judgmental to ourselves and, and give ourselves a [00:23:00] break and think that, you know what, I gotta, I gotta slowly get into this. So the way I always like to explain it is that the first time it happens after you've learned, after we've shared this concept is 20 minutes later you're like, man, that really hurt.

I, I, I felt like when, when she said lazy, I, I, I kind of felt. Mad and, and and insecure because I, because I wanna be a competent spouse. Mm-hmm. And, and I have some sheets and stuff that we, that, to trigger those words. Right. So I have a whole list of feelings and a whole list of unmet needs. And so when you look through there, they really quickly pop out which ones are, which ones are your unmet needs.

And you do that 20 minutes, hour later, day later. And then as we get better and better, eventually we're doing it five minutes after it happened. And eventually we're doing it right in the moment when she says, wow, you're lazy. And you're like, oh man, that hurts. And, and you're doing it right in the moment.

And then you start processing that. And when you're doing that, you're not responding in a negative way. 'cause I'm realizing her unmet need. 'cause I've realized my own. And at that point, once we get to the point where we're almost doing it in the moment, that's when we start doing the fourth, the, the kind of the fourth [00:24:00] way, which is now understanding their needs because it's the same thing.

She didn't really mean lazy, what she meant is, I'm tired and I'd like a bit of help. Yeah. But we used the word lazy, just like when I said, you're an idiot. I didn't mean that person's an actual idiot. I just meant. You're not driving very safe. And I love my life and I don't want to die right now. Yeah. Um, so, so, so is there

Kyle: never a place to call someone an idiot?

Is like what? Like take the description of idiot. I dunno what that is right now, actually in the dictionary. No, I just, I'm using it as a slang for Yeah, fair, fair enough. But like, so they're, they eventually, these words, these thorn words that we use, is there no place for them? No, I, I don't believe there is.

Okay.

William: I, I don't believe there's a place for them. Uh, I, I, I think they're, um, yeah, they're a result of there, there, there are expression of a violent world. I don't, I don't think there's a place, but we're just really crappy at expressing ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. I think we're terrible communicators as human beings.

And that, that, I dunno if I say that in my TED Talk, but I definitely do in some of my workshops is that we, we are, what we try [00:25:00] to do is compact all my feelings and emotions and needs into a word and throw it at you and expect you to understand it. And, and I, I really think we're terrible communicators when it, when it comes down to it.

Are, are we, um, and I know that sounds judgemental, but we, we aren't that I feel judged that you said that I think we aren't very effective communicators

Kyle: because we don't really say what we want and need. And, and do you think that's always been that throughout, throughout history? Do you think that's our culture right now?

Do you think, uh, um, it, it's human

William: nature. Marshall Rosenberg, um, who, who kind of comes up with a core concept. So the thorn idea is, is an idea that I, I cult cultivated myself, but it, it's really rooted in Marshall Rosenberg's work, nonviolent communication. And, uh, you know, when the new CEO of Microsoft came out, it was really interesting to, to hear that he gave his manager's Marshall Rosenberg's book, nonviolent Communication Okay.

As their first gift in their first meeting saying, I need all my managers in the whole company to read this book.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: Uh, because he realized the value in the level of communication builds the relationship. Right. [00:26:00] So do I think Marshall Rosenberg is the creator of, of this whole nonviolent communication thing?

It appears in other models as well. He claims that, you know, thousands of years ago, we, we didn't communicate that way. I'm not sure. I, I, I haven't really dug into that. I just know that in the here and the now and, and as far back as I can read, any books that I read, they're all there. Yeah. The violent expressions are there.

So for us it's real right now. So I would say, yeah, it's been

Kyle: there for

William: a long

Kyle: time. Yeah. So you mentioned earlier that you have a sheet that shows all the different emotions you can feel all your unmet needs. Um, I, I don't, I'm not gonna carry a sheet around in my back pocket, you know, so I, I want to go put this into practice tomorrow.

Mm-hmm. So, um, I get into work and one of the guys that say someone works for me, um, isn't doing what they want 'em to do, and it's making me think they're dumb. That my, that's what I'm feeling. Um, how, how do I communicate to them, uh, in a way that does not make them, that I'm not throwing a thorn, but that, [00:27:00] uh, I can actually communicate.

My unmet need of what, what's not getting done. Mm-hmm. You know, so that's one specific example, but how do you, how do you start learning this without having a sheet in front of you? Okay, so I got two

William: answers. My first answer is there's no silver bullet. Okay. I know we're in a pill society, but there is no magic pill.

You can just take and learn this to get the degree. You gotta go to school. So, so that's, that's a part of it. There is gonna be some learning that happens. It's just, it's just, that's just, that's just fair enough. I hate to say it, but yeah. That is a part of it. So you don't have to have it in your back pocket, but do that day later thing, then go home later and have a sheet somewhere.

I know people hang it on their fridge or, or they have it in their office and then they go back and they look down at it and they're like, wow. That was pretty intense. And, and this is kind of what I was feeling probably because of this unmet needs. So I have a little sheet, it's called the, um, uh, what I call it, the, the shift game that we do.

And it's, it's just a little sheet that allows you to do that. So some of that, you don't have to do it right there in the moment. So. To The second answer that I have for you to be able to do it in the moment is, there's a really cool thing [00:28:00] that I've learned with kids and, and it's quite well known as well, is that when you go up to a kid who's just really angry and throwing teddy bears around or chairs or whatever it is, and um, you come in there and you tell, you say tell 'em to stop it, you're basically pushing force against force and you're gonna have an argument, there's gonna be some kind of an altercation or they're gonna feel like they're put down or something.

But when I walk in there and I say, you're really sad, aren't you? The child will correct me if I nailed the wrong emotion. So if I come in there and I don't, I say, what are you, are you feel, what are you feeling? And they'll, they'll say, I don't know, but if I say you're sad, they'll say, no, no, I'm angry.

Like, they'll, they'll, they'll fix the, our, our mistakes. So it's almost like they give you credit for trying, and that's the same thing with adults. So if I say, yeah, you're, uh, you know, I'm, this is making me anxious, or I'm feeling really sad right now. It doesn't mean you have to have the right feeling, but the fact that you're trying already is, is getting [00:29:00] you in the right direction.

There's a really cool concept by, uh, Dr. Dan Siegel. Um, he writes a book called The Whole Brainchild, and he has a concept called Name It to Tame it. And this is fascinating research. I just love some of this research is the idea is that when I'm angry and I name the feeling. It immediately, the cortisol or the adrenaline calms down, the anger calms down, the sadness calms down.

So when I can name an emotion, it automatically calms down. It's almost like your body says, ah, you got this. 'cause you know what it is. Okay. So when we, that's, that's really step one is start trying to name our own feelings and emotions. And again, not mushy, just this has me really angry. Even say I'm really angry right now.

Yeah. That already has a, both an a sociological, like a physiological aspect to it, but also it's that self-awareness that starts building. So, uh, as, as to get really practical, one piece of advice that's, if you said where, one thing that I could do to start, that's where you start is, is that when you have a [00:30:00] feeling, start noticing that feeling and eventually try to give it a name.

Yeah. So, and I, I've even had worked, and I worked mostly with adults as well, but I've worked with kids who don't yet have names for some of their feelings. So they just give 'em a name, just any old. Call it thunder, volcano, whatever it is. Yeah. And, and then we, we start working with that. But anyway,

Kyle: so what do I gain if I am able to implement this in my life?

Because we we're naturally selfish people and we, so you think of this concept, be like, okay, if I do this, I'm just gonna help the people around me and I won't gain from this. How, how do you personally gain from this if you're able to implement this? Well, because there's people that have been very successful.

That don't do this. Mm-hmm. At all. Let, let, let's define success. Fair enough. But Mike, so the heads of big companies that are very financially successful. Yes.

William: Okay. But, but I, I'm not, I, I have no ability to judge their emotional lives or their social lives. Fair enough. But so, so I would, I would never personally tried to equate financial success or even [00:31:00] political success or any type of success to whether they are living a fulfilling life.

So that's where my quick answer to that answer is a much more fulfilling life. Okay. Because you know what's triggering you and what's not. Yeah. Um, and you, you then have the ability to say, something's not right here. So the whole idea of, um. Uh, there's, uh, Malcolm Gladwell calls a book, writes a book called Blank, right?

And, and the concept in the book is that he says, we need to start trusting our gut a little more. 'cause it, it is way faster than our brain. And there's some research out there that shows that our, our gut is way faster than our brain. Like to the tune of 14, or, you know, it, it's, it's, it's 10 times faster or more.

Yeah. I don't know the exact number, but, and they've done research, so you'll have to read the book to get the exact research study. But it's a fascinating study, um, where, where they realize that our body is giving us cues long before our brain is clued in. So when we can tune into that, then we can start listening to ourselves and start catching this stuff long [00:32:00] before I even get angry so I don't have to get angry.

I'm already starting to feel uncomfortable before I get angry. And my body's like, okay, you're listening. You got this. And then a much more fulfilling life because we don't only believe in. Stating those feelings. We also believe we have to have, be honestly express yourself. So we then have to honestly express ourself to saying, Hey, this is making me really anxious and I don't think I can do that.

So it's not about being a pushover and just being all feelings and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. It's about also honestly expressing myself, which is that whole piece of, Hey, I'm feeling anxious 'cause I notice you're hitting the curb. Can you please drive straight?

Kyle: Yeah.

William: Right. So there's this, there has to be that honest component too.

It's the, the empathically listen and honestly express that this is straight from Marshall Rosenberg is if I just empathically, listen, I'm a pushover. If I just honestly express I can be a jerk, but therefore I have to do both. Yeah. And that, and that's the key to success. I have to, and, and the starts by tuning into that.

Yeah. And once I can do that to my myself, I guarantee you a, a much more fulfilling [00:33:00] life. A lot less anger in your life, a lot less conflict. And you know that. The conflict you have or used to have came from your own feelings. So therefore, I dunno who quotes this, but I've heard this before, that an expression of anger is nothing more than an expression of the relationship you have with yourself.

So when I'm angry at you, it's nothing to do with my relationship with you, it's the relationship I have with myself that's causing that anger. And, and that's the, that's the, the gist of it is that that relationship just becomes, and I, and I, I had to go through that learning curve myself and yeah, it was a, it was a five year process, but I can tell you it's, it, it's, yeah, it's made me a believer.

Kyle: Yeah. So I, that's, I guess that's my follow up question. So, um, as you learned this mm-hmm. How, how was it for you implementing it in your own life? Uh, I'm, I'm guessing that's an ongoing thing. You never really stop. And, and how has it changed you and, and how you, um, obviously there's less con, I'm guessing there's less conflict and stuff like that, and you're [00:34:00] more aware, but like.

How long did it take? What, um, and how, how was that going?

William: Mm-hmm. Well, if you ask me or ask my family, that's maybe a different answer. No, I'm kidding. Um, I'm, I'm still a, I'm still a, you know, a, a, a, you know, a human being that has faults. So, um, it's, it, it's hard work that they'll put that right out there.

It's work, and it's started with work and it, and it's, and it's a, it's a slow incremental process. If we expect it to change immediately, it won't. Um, and it's not something that people can teach you either. It's, it's a process. 'cause we all are our own feelings, so I need to tune into my own feelings, not what I think someone else's might be.

So it's, it's a slow process, I would say three to five years, four years for, for me is, is kind of where I, I was like, okay, this really has changed the way. And, um, so you're a happier person. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I can say that for sure. And, and happier in terms of. That I'm not really looking [00:35:00] for happiness.

It's just, it's because I'm, I'm, I'm more maybe tuned into what's going on. So I'm much more reactive to what's actually going on. Yeah. And I'm, and I'm much more in tune with what's going on rather than always trying to achieve something. Um, even as a teacher, uh, I, I do some high school teaching and stuff as well.

I, I've shifted my thinking, and this is also borrowed from nonviolent communication from our Rosenberg, is that anytime I want to teach something, it creates a power differential between you and I. So I'm not here to teach anything, but what I am here to do is share something I'm really passionate about.

And when I do that, it's, you know, the first thing is, is if it doesn't work for you, I didn't fail because I wasn't trying to teach it in the first place. I was just sharing something I'm really passionate about. And when I share it, that's when I feel fulfilled.

Kyle: Mm-hmm.

William: And if it does do something for you, there's even more fulfillment.

But if it doesn't, it's like, Hey, I still have the opportunity to share. So it almost sounds selfish, but on the same token. If I, we, we do some exercises in my [00:36:00] workshops where I try to get people to convince each other of something.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: By using convincing strategies, sales strategies, uh, and things like that.

And yet, and then I tell them to tell us about an experience that they just absolutely loved and are passionate about. And usually the people are more convinced to go try something when they hear that passion. So when I speak about my passion, it's more likely to get you to do something than, and, and I'm not even trying.

So that's similar to Simon Cenek thing. Start with why I, in a sense Yeah, absolutely. Because it comes from within rather than here is what I'm trying to do. Yeah.

Kyle: Yeah. Okay. Uh, we, we live in a, in a culture and that's all around us nowadays with, um, black Lives Matter and, and the explosion the last couple months, um, and what's going on, and just our culture as a whole, that there seems to be less and less dialogue than there ever has been.

We're literally, as using the thorn example, throwing thorns at each other and just note talking. Uh. W why, why do you think it's progressed to where it is now? And it seems to be continuing to go downhill? It's in politics or they're, they're constantly calling each to their names. [00:37:00] Um, there's very little talking.

Uh, I don't know if that's maybe you think because of social media that like, makes it worse. Uh, why do you think it got to where it is now and how as a society do you think we get can get out of this again? Mm-hmm. Um, so, so an example is, uh, you know, like for example, Trump, very polarizing figure. Um, some people hate him, some people love him, and it just seems like there's.

No talking between the two sides. Yeah. Just hurling insults. Yeah.

William: And, and I, and I think the first problem is that there's some people who love him. Some people hate him. We, we should love all human beings. I, I is my core, core premise, right? So I may not like everything he does because it affects some of the things, some of my, but it, or there may be some beliefs and things that he does, or some way he treats other people that I, that don't fit in my worldview.

But if I'm trying to change him. And so by hating him, I'm essentially doing, you know, saying that he needs to change and I'm already in the wrong place. So, [00:38:00] so that's, that's, that's, that's

Kyle: where you in the wrong place, because I am Now, let's say, let's say, let's say Trump is a racist, like he got accused.

William: Yeah.

Kyle: Why is, why are you in the wrong place for saying he needs to change, not be a racist anymore?

William: If, if I'm in a place where I say he needs to change, first of all, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm not, I, I absolutely, I'm not con, I'm not saying the behavior he's doing is the right thing for society or, or is even respectful and all that.

'cause everyone has the right to be respected. Um, so, so, you know, being a racist is absolutely not right. However, if I say you need to change, I am already, um, I don't, I don't know where this concept comes from, but it, it's a really cool analogy is that if you ask someone to hold up their hand. And then you, you say, put your hand against mine.

Yeah. And you put your hand against mine. When I push that person's hand, they immediately push back. But when I just hold our hands together, a a, a sort of bond starts forming and, and, you know, we can get into a [00:39:00] chemical level and all this stuff, and this is why I, I, I think, you know, all these, uh, you know, lack of social connection and things like that in real physical social connection is, is not good for us because we're not wired that way.

But that's a different topic is, is that when I, when I hold our hands together, we, we form a kind of a bond. So if I start pushing against Trump or anybody, then I'm just, I'm just advocating that he pushed back and, and now we're into what we're pushing about rather than the actual core. So if I would actually be able to try to understand, well, where is that actually coming from?

Because it's so easy for us to look back at hundreds of years ago and look at these people who in today's context are very, very racist. Not for a second do I say what they did is right, but they were living in that context and there was no, there was no paradigm that was shifting their thinking and there was no one pushing them to shift.

But there's no also no one sitting down and saying, Hey, why are you doing this? Yeah. Um, so for us to look back and say, Hey, they need to change it, it really. Gives [00:40:00] me, I've created a power differential saying, well, I'm better. You need to change. And once we're in a power differential, we lose the ability to communicate properly.

That that's, that's one of the core fundamental things is that power creates a, a difference in level. Therefore, I don't teach people things. I just share what I do, and that then doesn't make me a power of authority or anything. And that, that's one of the core concepts too, is if I push, I'm just gonna get resistance back.

So what I need to do is say, Hey, I would really like to understand, be furiously curious about where you're coming from. Right? Yep. And I, I truly believe, I, I said that to you before, before we started today in our little chitchat. There is, I believe curiosity is one of the fundamental qualities that we need to, to, and, and how do I do it?

I can start getting curious about my own feelings about the other person. And before you know it, we're, we're, we're so curious and we're actually understanding each other.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: So by saying he has to change and, and calling him a bigot and all this kind of stuff, I, I, I'm already. Created. I've already put myself on a pedestal above him, even though I say, oh no, I'm not above him.

I'm not. Yeah, we are. We've created a power differential. If, 'cause if I say you need to [00:41:00] change, then that means that you need to do something different than you are. I don't, therefore we're different and, and we're in it. So once we do that, um, we've created this conflict and now we've created the conflict about who's right and who's wrong.

Not even about we played this game of right and wrong, rather than, Hey, I've got needs, you've got needs. 'cause I, I can assure you that at a fundamental level, the only reason, and this is really starting to get out there, but um, in terms of where we end up, which is a beautiful place, but that I'm only racist because that is my strategy to getting my needs met.

So if I am not secure as a person, then one thing I can do is start stepping on people of other culture. Right? There's always two ways over our fence. We can either jump or step on someone.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: And, and, and, and, and, and some of us choose to step on others. So that's one core concept in my TED talk too that I talk about is that a need and a strategy are always different.[00:42:00]

Very, very, very different. So I may have a need to have a home, but my strategy is have a 10,000 square foot home, right? I need a need for shelter. My strategy is I need this really fancy house. I, I, I may need food. My strategy is to is to beat you up to get your money so that I can go buy food. So the strategy is not the need.

The need is something different. So, so in, in this racist example, the strategy is I need to step on other people. My need is something very different.

Kyle: So half the, uh, I, I'm following you so far, but I'm not, what I don't understand yet is. Um, how, for example, half the population of America, or let's say Canada, um, believes that, uh, that prime minister or president is, is a racist.

That that's what they feel. And, and let's say he actually is. Um, and, and he's spewing these things that he says people that are orange are less or than people that are blue. Um, [00:43:00] how do, how does half the population that doesn't have a direct relationship with their, um, the person, their leader, deal with this in a way that doesn't, um, include throwing thorns on social media or in protests or things like that?

William: And, and I guess that's, that's probably the difficult, the most difficult part is that when, and that's why, so the, the nonviolent communication thing is all about let's all do this together. The concept of where, where I kind of came at with my TED talk is that, you know what, we can all do this together.

It's, it's virtually impossible. It has to kind of spread organically and slowly. So the first thing I need to do is digest thorns myself. So when I hear the president being racist, um, if I'm going to protest with violence, I'm just doing exactly the same thing. So that's where that needs to stop. I need to start understanding what him being a racist is doing for me.

And once I can do that, only then do I have enough power [00:44:00] to start influencing those around me. And that's when that happens. So if I wanna influence those around me, I gotta start with myself. And, and that's where that goes. So it, I, I would say. There, there. And once you, once you are in that place of, of, of being, you know, self-aware and you're, and you've, and you've figured out what's triggering and what's not triggering and, and being this,

Kyle: okay, so

William: what are some concrete

Kyle: things here?

So, uh, you, you, you believe the pre president's racist. You feel that, um, what, okay, so you, well, the first place

William: is I'm already in the wrong place when I just start calling him racist. What I have to do is I notice that the black, I, I notice that the president is very disrespectful to I black or orange or whatever.

Yeah. I, that I notice that the, the president is very, says these, these words that are, that are disrespectful or I, I notice that the president says these kinds of words about this culture. That's my pure observation that makes me feel really uncomfortable because my need for, for, for, um. You know, for providing a safe [00:45:00] environment or for my, or my safety is because what if he comes after me next?

Like, why? If we can dig at the core of why I'm alarmed by that. Because if I'm alarmed, 'cause I wanna change him, I, I'm, I'm just here to push back and, and we're into this back and forth again. So when we get to the core concept of why it's triggering me, only then do I start being able to influence around.

Okay. So you get, you get

Kyle: there. So your core concept is you, it triggered you and your unmet, unmet need of feeling safe. Mm-hmm. Really simple. Yeah. And that could, let's just use that simple one. Yeah. So now you,

William: now you realize you feel unsafe. What's the next step? So, so the very next step would be to, to then start influencing the people around us.

And because. If I'm going to influencing with what? Like, like to talking to people like that. So when, if so, fair enough. We're talking me to the president. I don't have communication with the president. That's right. It, it's not gonna, it's not gonna, it's not gonna, I'm not gonna have a direct impact, but what I can do is start influencing those around me.

And the, and the circle keeps growing

Kyle: by saying, um.

William: [00:46:00] By saying what as an example that the next time someone says to me, Hey, he's being really racist, I could say, yeah, no, that, that, that, you know, when he says those kind of things, that makes me really anxious too, because I, I'm feeling pretty unsafe and before you know it, we start shifting people's thoughts around, it's not about me versus them.

It's about, it's about we're, we're all collectively here and if, and if we make it about me versus them, we're always gonna be fighting me versus them. Whereas let's get to the real heart of the issue. So it, it's, it's a really, um, and that's the whole concept of we need to learn how to eat thorns. We can't expect everyone else to do it at the same time.

And we also can't expect everyone else to change. 'cause then I'm just throwing thorns by saying you need to change.

Kyle: So, um, okay. But that doesn't really seem, I, I elected him. Yep. I, I, our country voted for President X. Um, so I've, I've told my friends and family that it makes me feel unsafe when he, uh, when the president, um, talks badly about.

Uh, what I feel [00:47:00] is badly about mm-hmm. A group of people. Yeah. But it still doesn't feel like I am doing anything to, to change it. When if I go run down the street and smash windows, people will know and that I, and then I'm angry that, that I'm, that I'm angry. Mm-hmm. And I'll say, and someone will interview me and they'll say, well, it's because the president is saying they these things that's making me feel unsafe.

Yeah.

William: And so, and then what happens? Then the president sends in federal agents and then this happens. And before you know it, we're at war when really, um, so, so the, the whole idea of violence begets violence is, is where that comes. So I'm not saying that the solution is going to be easier or quicker, but I am saying it's going to be a lot less com with a lot less conflict and a lot less people getting hurt and a lot less people probably, and a lot less people dying as well.

So more

Kyle: effective. How? Absolutely. So how do we, I guess I want to connect. 'cause right now we're connecting, people are connecting with authorities by what they're doing. Mm-hmm. If it's an effective connection or not. That's debatable. Uh, but [00:48:00] it is, there is a connection. So walk me through how the connection also all that gets to the authorities the other way.

So right now we're at the step of that. All my friends and colleagues are in agreement that, uh, what's being said is making us feel unsafe.

William: Yeah. So, so what strategies? So out of that, we then start talking about what strategies can we do to ensure our safety rather than talking about how can we change him.

Kyle: Okay.

William: So, so that's, that's where the productive step comes in. Because if I start saying, Hey, he needs to change, I'm now so focused on changing someone that I'm actually not really doing something to make myself feel more safe or us as a group. And once we are in that mode of, hey, so what are the, some of the steps and, you know, we could obviously brainstorm.

That's not the point of to, to talk today, but is what are some of the things that I can do. To make us more safe. And now we're, we're where we need to be. Now we're more productive and we say, oh, we need guns. Well, no. So is that really, now we're just talking about [00:49:00] violence again. So it it, there's gotta be some productive dialogue around what can we do to be more safe and, and go, go get your, um, your MLA or MP or whatever else.

If it's a, if it's a government issue, right? Like there are channels, but we've become so impatient and so challenged that now it's all about just who can get the biggest barb out there first. Right? And, uh, I, I, I read a quote today, uh, I dunno where I saw it, but it, it just kind of resonated with me a little bit.

It was, it was something, um, I think Mike Tyson said at the boxer, he said, the social media has made you all so. Feeling protected that you can say anything you want without ever having to get punched in the face for it. Right? Mm. Because in the boxing ring, you get punched in the face if you do something wrong.

And, and, and that, and that's gonna, so whereas now we're living in this world where I can say anything and, and you know, I've, I've heard some people characterize all these protests and everything has nothing more than a live, a live enactment of the comment section of, of, of your local social media feed.[00:50:00]

And it's just all these people hurling all these insults that we can, that we can, that we can do behind the protection of our screens. And we're now living that out in real life on the streets. Yeah. And, and that really resonated with me as well. I'm like, wow, that's, I never really thought of it that way.

Kyle: Yeah. So I, I, I guess I'm not getting something then because I still think the president should change. What, what am I not getting? Like why, why can't I be focused on him changing? So that, that's, that's the whole reason I'm feeling. Okay. Unsafe. So

William: what you would like. Is you would, so, so there, okay. I'm not saying the president shouldn't change, but what would you like him to change?

Kyle: That he is no longer

William: biased to a certain group of people. Okay. So, so, and, and how are we going to enact that change by, by basically going to smash someone's window. We're, we're just basically saying, well, I'm going to wreck someone's property now to get that person to change. Like that logic already doesn't sit well with me.

And also [00:51:00] the, the idea of I'm not here to change him. But I, I, I am here to share something really passionate about what I'm passionate about, you know, in terms of that. So if you do get an audience with the president or whoever it is, we're, I know we're picking on the president right now, but it may be any, any person that once we have an audience at that, it's that we have to stay in that eating thorns in that thorns method.

If that person chooses not to do it, then if the groundswell around him is, but we're gonna make sure we're safe and not necessarily with violent means, but just that we know how to eat thorns, then those bullies, if you will, end up either having to change or, or, or not being able to survive in that environment.

Right? So it, it's definitely not just an overnight fix. So, so the concept is, is if I come at it with a premise that he needs to change, then. I'm already pushing and we've got this resistance thing going on. But if I come at it saying, I would really like to understand what unmet need of his is there when he says [00:52:00] this bigoted thing, now I'm in the place where I can truly understand.

And when we get there, then change naturally starts happening. The, the, the, and this sounds philosophical yet It, it's, it's, I've seen it in action so many times in my work. So I, I, I can speak this from, from, from, from experience that when I can express your need, your unmet need mm-hmm. Very clearly and I understand it, and you can express mine, the solution will always find us.

I don't even have to look for it. So we don't need to become solution providers if, but if I can understand what your unmet need is, and this is in a couple relationship as well, and you can understand what mine is, and we can only do that after we've understood our own.

Kyle: Mm-hmm.

William: And then I can understand yours, then the solution will find us.

So if I. If I come into a negotiation demanding things, then I can only expect the other person to demand things too. But if I come in, there're saying, Hey, this is what I am, you know, needing. Mm-hmm. This is what, and, and we're not talking [00:53:00] strategy, we're talking actually needs Yeah. Then, and if, and if I can, uh, if they can explain to me what they're needing and then we can actually say each other's needs to each other.

Yeah. Then the solution will just come. It, it always comes

Kyle: good communication. So, um, we said earlier that we can say whatever we want in the comment section of social media and, and it's a, it's a bloodbath and people say whatever they want. And the same token we live in more and more in a society where you can't say whatever you want and you can get, lose your job really quickly and stuff like that.

So that's the other side that we're becoming more and more free speeches leaving in, in many ways. So, um, how, how does that work? Is that because, uh. Yeah. I guess what, what are your thoughts on that? Because that, that's the opposite.

William: I, I, I think it's this continuum buildup of we are just constantly upping the game of how violent we can get to each other.

And, and, and that's why we're seeing it just now. It's spilling out into the streets. So to me it's, it's just an escalation. It's kinda like the old adage of, of, of, of a, [00:54:00] of a person holding onto a handful of sand as it starts slipping out, they wanna hold onto it tighter and tighter. Well, the, well, what happens?

The sand just pours out faster. What we need to do is have our hand open and the sand just stays in a nice little pile. Right? So that's kind of the same thing if we just keep holding on tighter and tighter to what I believe. And so do you, you know, we're, we're just losing the battle and we just hang on tighter.

So, so the more. We push. You must change. I must change. The harder we fight, the more escalated I become. So in a war too, we just throw bigger guns into the war. Well, that's exactly the wrong method. We need to, we need to start backing up. Yeah. Not going forward. We need to start opening our hand and saying, Hey, can, let's talk about this.

Right? Yeah.

Kyle: Okay. So let's let, let's, uh, play a hypothetical game. I believe, uh, that a marriage only be between a man and a woman. You believe that that's not the case. It doesn't matter. Uh, you can do whatever you want. So I post on my social media, I believe marriage is defined by this, that man or woman only.[00:55:00]

Everything else is not right. I actually believe it's a sin. Yeah. Um, now you read that. And in today's culture, if you say that, uh, um, especially if you're higher up, you, you get slammed by the media very hard. Mm-hmm. Might lose your job. Mm-hmm. All, all these things happen. Um, now how does that, how would you in that role, in this role play here?

Um, maybe you might be very offended by that. You might be hurt and stuff like that. How do you take that without canceling

William: me? Yep, yep. And I, and I would say obviously it's, it's gonna be very indicative of how you say it. If you're saying that I'm an idiot or I'm dumb, or I'm, or I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, a corrupt person or, you know, it depends on the language you use obviously is very, very important.

But on the same token, if that's going to offend me that you, you know, you have a belief, we all have our beliefs and, and I'm very thankful we can all have our own beliefs. So if you have a belief about this concept of marriage, and I have a belief about this concept of marriage, I'm not married to you.

[00:56:00] So, so what's, so how is your concept of marriage going to like, sure, there's laws of the land and that's a whole different discussion, but if your concept of marriage is this and you're my politician, then I have a right to not vote or not live in your writing. I, I have all those options at my disposal, but if I say you have to do this, um, 'cause, because if you're not.

Outright targeting me and saying, I have to change, then, then why am I saying you like, so where's the conflict? That that's what I sometimes want. I'm like, where is the conflict? Just 'cause I hold a belief doesn't mean that I expect you to change and hold the same belief. Yeah. So if I have a belief of a, um, you know, of a concept of marriage that is different than yours, then only if you're trying to change me and say I have to change.

That's where the conflict is. But if you just say, I believe it's a sin and this and this and that, and I don't believe it is, then if I'm being offended by that, then I should be looking pretty deep and saying, well, what's my unmet need here? Because everyone is [00:57:00] entitled to their belief. You're not entitled to hurting people or violence and all that stuff, but you are entitled to having your, your, your opinion and your belief.

So if I'm being threatened by that, then am I, is it my safety? If it's my safety, well, what are you doing that, that may, that I may think is being perceived as a threat to my safety? Well, I don't want people walking, oh, so you want me to change my view of marriage? Well, now we know where the problem is, right?

So, so it, it's, it's, it's, if I believe you want to change me, then I'm going to resist. But if you say something and it's just an expression of your belief and I have an expression of belief, then if we are communicating that in the way we've been talking about for the past little while, then where's the conflict?

Because we are, we are entitled to, I'm not knocking on your window trying to get you to stop doing what you're doing. I'm not proclaiming this saying, Hey, that person is a bad person. I just said, this is my belief. Can you not accept that as my belief if, if that other, if the other side now wants me to change my belief?[00:58:00]

Kyle: That, how does that work then? Okay, let's take not a marriage, but let's say racism. So you're an employer, you have a, an employee that works for you that openly says, I believe that blacks are lesser people than whites. Mm-hmm. You know, just super extreme. Mm-hmm. Um, and someone finds out about this Yep. And is offended, um, and, and has hurt and said, uh, would you fire that person?

William: I would first try to understand where they're coming from and saying, so, so you said this. I wouldn't say, so you believe blacks are lesser than whites or whites are lesser than blacks. Whatever way. Yeah. I only if they use those exact words. Remember the observation first. What did they actually say and say, so what, what, what, what, what are you, where are you trying to go with this?

Mm-hmm. What are you trying to say? And if that person is not holding to the beliefs that I have as a company, I, I'd say, please find a company where you can hold those beliefs. Um, yeah, absolutely. So in, in those situations it's pretty, it's pretty easy. 'cause you know, we, we don't have [00:59:00] to be employed by a certain company if they don't follow our beliefs.

So that, that's the, that's the way I think it should work. It shouldn't be this company is doing X, Y, Z and therefore we're all gonna protest and throw stones through their windows and stuff. It just makes it worse. Uh, I would say let's start educating each other and if we need to leave, then let's do that because I have the right to be respected.

So therefore, if I'm not being respected at my job, then I, I, I should have the ability to, to leave that job or, or ask somebody to leave the job. Right? So, so yes, I, if, if, if I'm an employer of a company and someone is. Saying things that I perceive are disrespectful to certain cultures, I, I, I think I have the right to, to ask that person to go find a place where they can express those views or retract those views.

So, okay, so now let's go back again. But I'm not asking them to change. I'm just asking them to not do it on my turf because this 'cause 'cause they're not respecting me either at that point. Right.

Kyle: Okay. So now let's go back to the marriage thing. 'cause then it's more of a freedom and [01:00:00] religion thing, but they're getting more and more compared that if you don't believe in gay rights, for example, then you are in the same category as if you were a racist.

So now you have business owners that saying, if you don't believe, um, these things, but gay rights, you don't have a job here. Yeah. Now it starts getting gray.

William: So, so I guess, I guess the point, and, and this is, but this is where I think we're going offside, is, is if someone, and, and you know, you can take any right for that example, if, if I am.

Being respectful to someone of a different culture, race, whatever, any gender you, you name it. That's very different than saying I am. Uh, that's very different than saying I, I, I think someone is, you have to proclaim this as your belief now in order to work here, because at that point it's like, well, why?

So let's not even talk about, just get Ray talk about any belief. If I, if my employer is asking me to express a belief that I don't believe, then I'm [01:01:00] basically, I'm not staying true to my own values. So I the, I dunno if that's answering your question. So I guess

Kyle: so you would be okay with having, um, someone work for you that's racist as long as he doesn't No,

William: I I What is

Kyle: racist

William: though?

Kyle: What is racist? Okay. Someone, um, see, that's why I guess I'm trying figure the difference between the two because, uh, because it seems like you're saying, uh, if someone was actually racist. Then I would say, yeah, that doesn't align with the beliefs of this company. I think I have the right to get rid of them.

But with marriage, um, I, uh, I don't have the right to get rid of them. But what's the, what's the difference between you?

William: Let's go, let's go. Let's just create a hypothetical situation. If I am, if I believe in truly just heterosexual marriages, and I have someone who's in a homosexual relationship in my company, and I, and I, and I don't believe that, but I'm not there, um, what do you call it?

If I'm not there persecuting them or asking them to change, then where's the [01:02:00] conflict?

Kyle: Right?

William: That, that's, that's what I ask myself is where's the conflict? It's only when they say, you must. Say that I'm just as equal as everyone else. It's like, okay, I, I, as a person, you are equal. Uh, and so where's the conflict there?

If they say, well, no, you need to put my homosexual relationship above the heterosexual, and I'm like, well, why do I need to do that? You're asking me to change. Um, when I'm, first of all, I'm not doing any damage. I'm, I'm just having a company and I have my beliefs. It's like saying I believe in God, or I believe in this.

I, I if, if that's my core belief as a company, it, I'm not asking all of my employees to believe in God. But what I am saying is if you ask me that, I have to stop that. Now you're asking me to change. And I didn't ask you to change in the first place. So that's where the conflict is coming from. Not

Kyle: so you can say, uh, if you had a personal belief that, um, a certain race is less than another race, but you don't go and push that on other people.

I, I,

William: I would say that's, I, I'm not, I I'm truly not self aware if I have that belief. 'cause I, [01:03:00] I, if I believe that one race is, is, is less than another race. Then I'm not, I'm not in a non-violent communication place like Okay, so you're, then,

Kyle: you're actually doing

William: the violent communication?

Kyle: Yes,

William: absolutely. If I, if I truly believe that one race is less than another, then I'm violently communicating.

'cause I'm, I'm, I have the ability to do harm at that way. Okay.

Kyle: And so the difference on the, on the marriage thing is there's one view of, um, I believe all people are equal, but I believe it should be done this way versus, uh, if you don't change, um, and start a hetero heterosexual marriage or start a gay marriage.

Yeah. Uh. Then I view

William: lesser. Yeah. But, but we also have to remember that working at a company is a choice. I'm not being forced to. So if, for example, I ran a company that had a certain belief, that is not saying anybody's less than anything, but I just believe in, in, in God or in heterosexual marriage, or I believe in, in, in, in, in, um, I don't know, a certain, a Republican or a [01:04:00] Democrat or, or it, it's no different.

I have those beliefs. If you don't wanna work for that company, you don't have to. But as long as, but if I now say, no, no, you, for it to work for me, you must become a Republican or you must become a liberal or conservative. Now I'm saying you have to change. I can understand there's an issue, but if I say and, and, but even then, you don't have to work for it.

If I say I want a company with just conservatives or just liberals, what's wrong with that? I, I have a company of just liberals. That's what the liberal party is. Yeah. So, so if I'm a conservative, I'm not gonna join the liberal party. So why do I. Force Microsoft to have to do something. I just don't have to work for them.

If they're, if they're not intentionally disrespectfully hurting people or, or dis you know, not being racist and all those kinds of things, like, but they just have a certain belief, why do I need Microsoft to change? Okay. So I don't, I don't go to the liberal party and say, you need to now believe in, in social conservatism.

Why? Because I have a party that does that. So why would I ask the liberals to change? I can just choose my side.

Kyle: So [01:05:00] can you have a company that says, I, I believe, uh, I believe in hiring just straight people

William: in, in, in a, in a absolutely non-conflict, non-violent situation where, where I'm not, where I'm not persecuting, uh, non-straight people. What would be wrong with me

Kyle: doing that? Well, you are persecuting because you're saying two people, uh, two people are applying for a job. Uh, one is straight, one is not, um, and you're going with the one that's straight because.

That that's what you want are, is that not a formal

William: persecution? I, I guess if we, if we say that, if, if I'm saying I'm just going to hire you because of that, yeah. Then I'm basically, I I, I am saying one is better than the other. So in, in that sense, sorry, I didn't quite understand where your question was going in that sense.

I, I, I am saying that, but if, but if that's, so if I go to, but I, I like to challenge that a little bit. I'm not sure where to go with that, but I'd like to challenge that a little bit. 'cause what if I go to the liberal party, but I'm a social conservative, are they gonna [01:06:00] accept me? No. They'll say no, you can't be an MLP MP for us because you're social conservative and we're liberals, they're, they're gonna say no.

Um, it, it's something that the, so, so where do you, where do you go with that? Right. So, so if we, if we get to a point where we can't even have beliefs, so, you know, this is obviously needs, needs some further discussion. Yeah, but I, I'm just saying. If we get to a point where I must do everything to please everyone, we're lost.

You can't do, we can't do that. Can't do it. It's impossible. You can't do anything. Then, then what's the, what's the point of even moving? Yeah, so, so we, we need to be able to have beliefs. 'cause wouldn't that be any different if, I would say, I, I, if I would say I have a, I, we have a company and we, we believe in God in this company and I have an atheist and someone who believes in God applying for the job.

If I hire them strictly on that merit, then am [01:07:00] I saying that? The atheist has to become a believer in God when they join the company. Well that, that's really where the issue lies. It's not about whether they're atheist or, or, or, or, or a Christian. That's not where the issue lies. I think the issue lies is in how am I displaying that if I truly am, am am saying you are better than the other person.

Well, yeah. Then I'm in, in absolutely the wrong place. Mm-hmm. But if I say, Hey, in order to do this job, you can't be an atheist because we are a evangelical outreach society. Um, then it's not about whether they, it's not about their belief, it's about their qualifications for the job. So, and that goes straight to the gay straight thing as well.

If, if that's not a fundamental belief, but um, I have a belief of one or the other then, and I'm not forcing them on someone, then they shouldn't force it on me either that, that's, that's the answer to that question if I can.

Kyle: So, so in the, in the States, we had the example of the baker that didn't wanna bake a cake for a gay couple because he said it infringed on his beliefs.

Um. [01:08:00] And people were upset about that. Now, let's say, uh, a baker, uh, someone comes in and says, uh, uh, a straight couple, uh, but they're, they're black or they're white. And the baker says, because you're white, um, I'm not gonna bake a cake for you because, um, I don't believe, um, whites, uh, deserve cakes. What's the difference?

Is, is the, is, is the baker allowed to just have the right to say yes to some people and no to other people that just, regardless of

William: I, I, I'm, I'm not sure. I don't think so. I, I I think that if we go down that road, we're down the road of racism and, and, and saying, 'cause basically, um, if, if we can, I, I think it really boils down to how do we communicate that?

Like, if, if I just say, Hey, I'm not gonna bake this cake for you because you're that way, then am I then implying that you need to change in order for me to bake the cake? 'cause then I'm in the wrong, but if I say, Hey, you know what, when you ask me to bake this cake, this makes me really feel uncomfortable because of this and have these, please, if we can talk at that level, we're in a totally different conversation, [01:09:00] then you must change.

I must change. Right? So that's, that's the, that's, that's the, that's the heart of what I'm trying to get at. Does that, does that make

Kyle: sense? Yeah. I, I guess I'm, I'm solely getting there. Um, I just, I just find it really tough because I, I get, I have a feeling that on the racist side that it would be unacceptable, I think right now anyways, I haven't, I haven't really figured this out.

I mean, that's why we're talking about it. But that it would be unacceptable for the baker to say, I'm not baking a cake for you because you're white or because you're black. Mm-hmm. But I don't think that it's wrong for the baker to say, I'm not baking a cake for you. Uh, because I believe, um. In hetero of social marriage only.

And I feel like I'm, uh, saying it's okay to not have one of those marriages, but be you a cake. Mm-hmm. I

William: guess, uh, from a, from a social, from a. A full, like from a, from a sociological point of view, we're, we're in a different place than we are with gender [01:10:00] rights than we are with, with race rights too. Right.

So that's probably what's confusing the conversation a little bit is, is that there's still so much, like it's pretty unequivocal. Like is there truly is, is one race really less than another? I think we're pretty much at a point where we know that's not the case. Uh, there there's no physical evidence, there's no evidence whatsoever other than maybe color and language and all this stuff that people are different.

They're, they're just, they're people. And, and this is the beautiful thing about nonviolent communication is. The whole feelings and needs is universal. It's absolutely universal. There's no culture. Culture is nothing more than an expression of a bunch of needs. Mm-hmm. So if I, so that's the beautiful thing about culture is that once we start wrapping culture into this whole idea, it actually strengthens the whole idea that culture's nothing more than a group of people that have gotten together to express a bunch of needs.

And, and I guess the same thing goes for, um, for religious rights and gay rights and all those things. So the, the question I guess is

am I [01:11:00] judging that person for what they believe or am I just saying I'm not comfortable with, with what they're doing or what they're practicing? 'cause that, that's the kind of thing, I think it's a different conversation. I think, I think it is a different conversation because, 'cause one has to do with the person because one has to do with who I am and the other one is, is to with what I'm doing.

Okay. Yeah. So it's kind of like if I'm gonna judge, and that goes back to. That goes back to the whole God atheist thing as well is one is who you are as what you believe and the other one's well, how are you doing that? Well, if you're coming in to change the way my organization runs, I don't want that.

But if you're just coming here and you're gonna work with what we're doing and, and we're being respectful to each other, then that's so one is what we do. And the other one's who we are. Yeah. And, and I think, or as

Kyle: you can say, one has to do with the actual person. The other one has to do with the person, what the person is doing.

Yeah. But, but in this

William: mix, and then of all this violence we've lost, we're even this, like we're teasing this apart here in this conversation and. We're losing that, all that pieces, we're losing all those little nuances of, of the [01:12:00] differences between things. And we're losing our, we're losing our ability to, of discernment and, and what is different, what's not different.

And, and I think it at all costs, it's respect has to be there. But that doesn't mean I have to be, that that doesn't mean I have to adhere to or believe everything that someone else hears. That that whole, you know, the, the being tolerant thing is, is is such a big thing now. Right. Tolerant has almost come to the point where I'm only considered tolerant if I believe what you believe.

And I, I the definition of the word is no longer there. Yeah. And, and the whole concept now I've, you know, I know even Margaret Atwood and a whole bunch of authors have jumped on it. I think, um, you know, a whole, a whole bunch of authors have, have signed this open letter that basically says if we're going to the place, we're going.

We as authors lose our literary Right. To, to create characters that are diverse and, and so if I now create a, a black person in a wheelchair in my, in my, in my [01:13:00] book, am I being racist? So, so we've lost our ability to have art and, and that's, that's a real life threat right now. Mm-hmm. Is that, um, you know, shows and books and, and all these literary things, um, are going to challenge some of the things that are violently being expressed on the streets.

Yeah. And, and so is that just literary license? Is that our art license, or is that actually the author being racist? Yeah. And that's, that's a real concerning thing right now for sure.

Kyle: What part do you think the nuclear family, um, has a, has a, what role does that have in us being able to later dialogue.

Effectively and communicate as, as adults. 'cause we know that society families are breaking down more than ever. There's more divorces than ever. There's less marriages than ever. Um, people having less kids than ever. The family's not where it used to be when a hundred, 200 years ago, it seemed like there was more dialogue.

That's maybe not necessarily true 'cause there was a lot of violence back then as well. Um, but there was definitely stronger families than there [01:14:00] was today. Does it have a role?

William: So, so how, so humor me for a minute. What's the definition of a nuclear family? 'cause I know a lot of people, like, what's your definition of it?

Is it like, 'cause I know a lot of people use that word interchangeably.

Kyle: Uh, so you just, I think two parents. Um, that's, um, where there's, where there's not like a codad or what do you call it? Stepdad. Stepmom, yeah. Um, and there's just for 20 years long, the same parents and they're used to, with a strong upbringing, uh, where the parents are around, um, where they're not both working and there's no,

William: okay.

Yeah. Yeah. No, and, and that, so, so that's, so, so you're saying what role does today's family structure

Kyle: Yeah. Like where it is today compared to 50 years ago. Do you think that has an effect in and, and the, the lack of communication? I, I think it's a result

William: of the lack of communication actually. Okay. That, that, and I'm not saying it was ever that good either.

I didn't live back then, so I don't know. But I think [01:15:00] that as we start communicating less, we have started to go to strategies that are less likely to keep us bonded together. So if something is not working out, I just, I, I can just quicker go to. I can, because, 'cause I'm not, I'm not learning the ability to communicate.

So I, I, I, I actually think that our ability to communicate is decreasing and that's causing a fracture in a lot of relationships ing. So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna judge relationships and, 'cause there's a lot of trauma and a lot of hurt and stuff that goes into a lot of this. So that's, that's, that's a very sensitive topic.

And I don't wanna put broad strokes on that, but I, I think it's there, I think it's the inverse actually, is that it's the, it's the degra degradation of communication that has caused the, the, the fractures in our relationships,

Kyle: which then, so now it's gonna probably gonna keep getting worse than with phones, with people being on their phones and not talking anymore.

And all those

William: things. And, and, and it's [01:16:00] even to the point where I, I think it's one of Simon Cenex talks where he talks about, Hey, we're even losing the ability to feel the uncomfortableness of saying, of asking a, a girl or a guy or, or a partner out for, for a date because we don't have that uncomfortable walking up and feeling embarrassed, Hey, what are you doing tonight?

Yeah. Um, and, and because now we just text, Hey, are you busy tonight? And then I don't have to swipe. Swipe right. Swipe. Yeah. So, so we've even lost, so we're, we're getting worse at it. 'cause we're now not even having those feelings. And then when they do spike, we run. So so because we don't even know what they are anymore.

Yeah. So, so I think that it's, and there's, there's some pretty solid research and evidence now that we know we are communicating at a physical neurobiological level as well. So we're not only. Communicating our feelings to ourselves, but my feelings can actually communicate to yours. So things like cortisol and, uh, which is a stress hormone and [01:17:00] endorphins, and which is like for the lack of pain or, you know, for, for feeling happy.

Mm-hmm. Um, that we actually emit those and you can pick up on those. So when someone says, wow, the air is heavy in this room, it's probably 'cause there's a lot of adrenaline or cortisol in the room, or not adrenaline, but cortisol or a physical, a physical pickup of that. So it, it's like the research is slowly coming out more and more.

But, so when I walk up to a dog and we say, well, the dog knows you're afraid. It's 'cause he's picking up on our, our test, on our, on our, on our cortisol.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: On our pheromone of fear. Right. Yeah. So, so we're, we're actually emitting talking at that level. So this whole Zoom culture that we live in right now, I, I think it's terrible.

We're not meant to communicate at that level. 'cause it doesn't work.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: I know. Yeah, I know. It's because we can't comm I can't get a feel for the room. I can't read the room. It goes back to that whole gut instinct. I can't get a read of the room because I don't know what's on the other side. Yeah. I can't feel, they don't transmit over the wires.

Kyle: I was saying to my dad the other day that I like, so going to church every three weeks, whenever, uh, um, you can get 50 people there, a hundred people there. [01:18:00] Um, that I, that I miss being together with a group of people, but I didn't know why. I couldn't articulate why anyway. It was just a feeling that it was just like, mm-hmm.

I feel something's missing. I feel, but I mean, I'm hearing the same message. I don't really talk to people that much at church. 'cause you just go there and you listen and you, you leave and maybe say hello to a few people. Um, but I still feel this, this missing this. So I guess that's kinda

William: what you're saying.

Absolutely. We, we, we know that when a mother gives birth to a child, the, the biggest amount of, of, um, oxytocin. Gets transferred, swap like un the, the mother gives a huge amount of oxytocin. We know that in the animal world, you know, cows are given oxytocin to start lactating. So the, all these chemicals that we transmit in and of our bodies, but what we know about oxytocin is that it's the bonding agent.

So when I shake hands with you after a deal's done, we swap oxytocin. That's the bonding agent that we agent. Chemical neurotransmitter is really what it is. Um, so, so when I, when [01:19:00] I, when I, when and when we, when we give someone a hug, we're we're, it, it's the endorphins and the, and the serotonin and the feeling of belonging.

That's a physical, it's, and there's actually a neurotransmitter in our body that is emitting it. And, and yes, we are swapping those and we cannot do that over the phone. It's interesting how we don't

Kyle: hear the doctors that are fighting this coronavirus task force say much about that side.

William: No, and it's fairly new.

It's, it's very new science. Okay. Like, it's only the last 10, 10 to 15 years where we actually have this si research to be able to do this. But we know that when you're, when someone scares you and, and you give out a big breath of air, it's full of cortisol. And so that stuff is getting emitted and, and it's here.

So that's, that's the way we communicate as human beings. I'm confident of it. Interesting. And it's, I, I have clients that I coach, um, that said I can't do Zoom anymore, so I'm so glad we can actually meet face to face because they're done with it. Yeah. Zoom fatigue. There's actually such a, there's actually something called zoom fatigue.

Yeah. And I think it's because of [01:20:00] that.

Kyle: Yeah. I think a, a big part of all this is also, as you get better at it, is, is trust. You wrote an article and it's on your LinkedIn trust is not earned. It is not given trust is grown. Mm-hmm. How, how does, um, that tie into this?

William: I, I, I think it starts with. What is trust?

Right. And I, and I think that people will give you two different definitions. So Patrick Lencioni coined the phrase vulnerability based trust, which is more like love than it is like reliability. So, so there's the reliability based. So if, if vulnerability based trust is the one thing that's a, you know, lencioni coined that term.

But um, then the other side, I'll coin the term reliability based trust. So we have vulnerable trust and we have reliable trust. Reliable trust is, I know that. Kyle's here every day. He'll, I trust he'll be here tomorrow. That's just reliability. Mm-hmm. It it, it's not, it's not an emotional thing. Right. So if, if I, if I do [01:21:00] something every day, I'll trust you.

Do it again. That's, that's a reliability based trust thing. There's this whole vulnerability based trust, and it's, that's where it's almost like you're given someone the, the power to be able to destroy about you, but, you know, they won't just like, it's, it's, it's the equivalent of love. Yeah. I, I, I'm giving you my heart, knowing that you can destroy it, but I, but I, but I, but because of love, we're not gonna do that.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: Um, you know, in some situ situations it does happen. But so, so that type of trust, that's what I talk about. I'm not talking about the reliability based trust that's earned, but the vulnerability based trust is. It's something that we plant and it has to be nurtured and it has to be grown and it has to, and it's fragile.

And if you don't keep nurturing it, it'll die out. Um, so that's the whole concept is that it's not earned. I don't need to earn your trust. I need to, I need to plant my trust in you and then you're either gonna provide the ground to, to let it grow, and then I'm gonna have this trust relationship with you or, [01:22:00] but if I don't nurture it and you don't nurture it, it's gonna die out.

So we both have to nurture. It has to be grown. And it's not, it's not an earning thing. It's not just me doing something for you or it's not a given where I just give it to you. It's gotta be this, this thing that where we grow together and sometimes it's not gonna grow and sometimes it is and we just have to be okay with that.

And,

Kyle: and does that tie into the eating thorns at all? Or is that a separate thing? Like is the being able to take negative comments and eating thorns? Just we're using that term. We're using that doesn't have tie, I think it

William: builds trust. Okay. I, I think it's a, I absolutely, I, I, I believe that it's, it's a method of growing trust.

So when I come up to you and instead of saying, you're an idiot, I'll say, Hey, that, that, when I noticed you do that, that made me really feel anxious. So I'm just wondering if we can change something about this. Um, you're going to start trusting me because I've just planted some trust in you that you have the ability to, to respect my feelings and I've respected yours, and now we're starting to grow that trust together.

So a absolutely, I, I, I think they're hand in hand. I think all of this. So [01:23:00] in my TED Talk, I talk about a formula like observations, feelings, needs, and then requests. So I noticed this made me feel this, this is what I need. And so I'm wondering if you can. Yeah, that's a formula. But really what I'm getting at is it's about relationship building.

It's about the ability to build, build the relationship. And when I start throwing thorns and judgment, I'm killing relationship. So, so that's really, the formula is only there to get you, it's kinda like you learn a math formula, but eventually you just know that three plus three, six, right. You don't even need to know what formula.

But it used to be 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3. That's right. But we don't do that formula anymore. Yeah. So that's the same kind of thing, right?

Kyle: Yeah. Very interesting. If, if someone's li listening to this, uh, podcast, um, and or show, um, says, I like what I heard here. I'm gonna get better at that. Besides listening to your Ted Talk, uh, what re what single resource would you recommend to them and say, and go read this or go watch this and say, this will be a good stepping stone to helping you [01:24:00] learn how to do this and have, um, live a more fulfilled life and, and less anxiousness and,

William: yeah.

Um, so I, I would say besides your book Yeah. In the future, yeah. My, my coming, my book that is coming. So in the, in the, in the meantime, um, Marshall Rosenberg's Non-Violent Communication, it's a fantastic resource. And, and he has a lot of little books as well. So like I said, he, he's kind of the underpinnings of the how to eat thorns.

The how to eat thorns is not from him straight. Mm-hmm. It's kind of just built on his ideas. Yeah. Um, and, and. So I, I would say if you want to reach out and learn that kind of stuff, I, I would say two things. One is an actual resource, which is Marshall Rosenberg's work. Just fantastic work. Um, and, and, and that's, that's probably where a lot of my, my, um, a lot of my philosophy and ideas come from is, is the work and it's not the model.

Sure. He talks about a model, but it's not the model. It's a way of being, it's a way of life. Yeah. And I would say the second one is, is, is [01:25:00] get really curious. I I, I really, and I'm not trying to sound cheesy 'cause, you know, 'cause that's the name of your show, but I, that, that, that's the, the thing. Mm-hmm. But I really, truly believe that, that if we can start getting curious about you rather than calling you an idiot.

'cause curiosity is the opposite of judgment. It, it, it's, it's even, um. I, I heard once that someone say, you know, the opposite of hate is not love the opposite. Hate is, is gratitude. When we start being gr gra, when we start feeling gratitude, we can't hate.

Kyle: Yeah.

William: Um, so, so I would say the same thing. The opposite of judgment is not non-judgment, it's curiosity.

Mm-hmm. Or the, the antidote to judgment is curiosity. So rather than saying, if someone says, Hey, what's up with that? Instead of saying, oh, you're such an idiot. Say, tell me more about what do you mean by that? Yeah. Like, so where does, what do you mean by that? And, and, and dig into that curiosity. I, I, I, it'll build empathy.

It'll build sympathy. It'll build every other quality that we're looking for. Trust, you name it. I, I truly believe that. Curiosity is the [01:26:00] underpinning of virtually every one of 'em. It's even the underpinnings of love. Yeah. Um, when do people light up? When they can talk about something they're passionate about?

Well how do I get 'em to do that? By being curious. Yeah. And, and, and then when I see that passion come out in that person, I start loving that person. 'cause I'm like, wow, you got passion there. Well, that passion comes from, from someone who is curious to that person. So really the more, the more I think about this, the more that's where it's

Kyle: very cool.

Thank you very much for explaining this. I think it's really important, especially in today's culture, where we are, as you, as we talked about, very terrible communication. So I wanna encourage anybody, everyone to definitely uh, find these resources and uh, and learn more about it. 'cause I think it's, it's very cool.

And, uh, thank you for taking the time. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, and if you wanna help spread the word, please leave us a five star review and tell your friends and family about this show. We have new episodes every other Friday.

We are available on YouTube, [01:27:00] Spotify, apple Podcasts, and wherever we get your podcasts. And you can follow this show on Instagram and Facebook at the handle at Furiously Curious Show.

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