June 25, 2025

How Can I Know I’m Saved? - The Briefcase and The Barn - Ep 49

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Gary: [00:00:00] Well, 'cause you're asked, you need me to massage it first? You want me to give a good rub? Yeah, please, please. Yeah. Lay on your belly. I'll get my heel. I'll get my heel. Right in the old sphincter. There such a stabbing pain in your anus. You're satic won't be an issue for,

oh yeah, baby. Hang on a minute. I just got molested my legs. Okay now.

Dude, let's get on. Oh man. Are we recording? Sound of a beater? Hopefully not. Just the audio. Audio

Kyle: would probably barely

Gary: have picked it up. Oh man, that'd be bad. Can be used and will be used against you in the court of law. I. Oh, sh Can't do it. I don't think so. Sorry, Nicole. Hate to be that person, but,

Gary (2): oh,

Gary: hey, let's get ready. [00:01:00] Oh, we get a pray first. I father briefly pray for wisdom for discernment. Pray that it could be ourselves, but not too much ourselves, and just pray that, uh, it would be honoring to you in Jesus' name. Amen.

Gary (2): Amen.

Gary: Always takes the fun out of it, man. My prayer always takes the fun podcast.

Kyle: I actually, uh, last week for, for the first minute, I uploaded it to Spotify. Like before we started, like, welcome to the Briefcase of the barn for the, for the Patreon people, okay. Where you had like your four variations of the Mayo joke. Oh shit.

Gary: Let's just start with the podcast. All on the podcast.

Kyle: I'm very whacked.

Welcome back to the episode of The Briefcase of the Bar in episode 49, a series of the Furiously Curious show where we talk about business, life, Christianity more. Well, let's get into it.

Gary: Oh man. I feel like I'm whacked. You said you're grumpy?

Kyle: Yeah, I'm just in pain and I'm sick of it.

Gary: Okay.

Kyle: It's

Gary: been six weeks now.[00:02:00]

Okay. I offered to run, run my heel into your.

Kyle: You did get, get that bike closer. Yeah.

Gary: Is it not allowed enough, do you think? We're actually recording.

Kyle: We for sure are recording, so,

Gary: okay. Okay. I did share the podcast today. Generally don't share it. I don't know. Oh, wow. I never to it obviously growth. Growth. Well, no, just 'cause it was the old guys, right? I, I got four.

I got a lot of

Kyle: comments. I got four, four comments this morning about the, the, the re um, um,

Gary: thumbnail. Okay. The only thing I've never. You never have made the clip with, uh, me being a little kid talking right. No.

Kyle: Uh, I was, they

were working

on it and they got close to it and then something didn't work. What needs to be

Gary: changed?

Can it not just be shared how it is? I feel like just I could share it how it is. I just need to know which podcast episode it was from and I could share it. Oh, I could figure

Kyle: that out. Do you wanna share that clip that originally? It's just kind of,

Gary: I only think it's funny 'cause I'm the beekman, right?

Bemans always think they're funny. They think all their own jokes are funny. Oh, I got some feedback

Kyle: on the today's episode that came out. Oh, I got a

Gary: lot of [00:03:00] feedback.

Kyle: Gary quote, I quote Gary. This is why I like math. A comment on, on YouTube. So I mean, you gotta take it with a grain salt, right? A hundred percent.

Uh, so Chinese, uh, Gary, you're a great guy and I love the optimism, but let's be honest here, Canada is more likely to have a majority of the provinces split and separate than to lay off more federal jobs. Don't tell me politicians care too much, so much about Canada. They're that they humbled enough to lose their job.

Gary: Oh man, because last week you were saying negative. Yeah. Why did I say last? I can't remember what I said six minutes ago, let alone, uh, last week.

Kyle: Uh, well, at least you're a great guy.

Gary: Yeah. That was, thought I was encouraging.

Kyle: You can be, you can be full of shit, but at least you're a great guy. Yeah.

Gary: Whatever that means.

What does great guy mean? So interesting comment. We had this question. This is one of our que we have our 200 questions that we answer as a family or whatever. Every, all the question was, uh, what makes someone a good person was the question, and do you think you're a good person?

Gary (2): Okay.

Gary: [00:04:00] All my children thought they were good people.

Gary (2): Okay.

Gary: No, that's not true. Some had pretty sound theology. It's very interesting, eh? Like some of them are like, they knew, like some of them know exactly what the Bible School answer is, right? Yeah. Oh, this

Kyle: is actually interesting. So in week, I think six of my 10 week coaching program, I have a journal prompt called, um, uh, my, my Beliefs.

And it's just like, I believe money is, I believe X, Y, ZI believe my purpose is, and, and people have to fill that in and what they believe and what they believe. And if I'm. Coaching someone that's not from a Dutch reform background. Usually you get kind of what they close to, what they believe, but if I'm coach coaching someone from more Dutch reform background, it's usually you, or more often than not, there's a lot of the answers are the right answer.

You're supposed to give like worm theology or what? Or just like the right, proper answer. Like my purpose is to glorify God and Yeah, and enjoy 'em forever, but that's just the right answer. But it's not actually what you even, what they

Gary: think, what they believe, what they believe, [00:05:00] what they actually believe themselves.

Exactly. Yeah.

Kyle: Which is very different.

Gary: But it all comes out through coaching, I guess at some point what they really believe based on what they're doing in their life, their actions. Yeah, how, how you're living. That's what you believe. Yeah. You put Stevia in this and like, I don't know what Stevie is, but it's like healthy sugar.

Actually, or is it just as per tape? No. Okay. It's actually like an actual not good. I don't like the, well, whatever beggars can be choosers. Hey. Right. Appreciate whatever you give me. Thank you.

Kyle: Anything you wanna talk about?

Gary: Uh, well, I just found the f feedback fascinating. I don't Well, what feedback get this morning?

Well, I got encouraging feedback on the weekend, but it was, this morning was all in relation to the, uh, the reserves being sold to developers.

Kyle: Oh, okay.

Gary: Yeah. Multiple people brought it up with me. Some in conversation.

Kyle: Okay.

Gary: Some just said, well, you just said goodbye to your political career. I'll still vote for you for mayor in 20, you know, 45.

But most people won't. But, and then someone else, I don't know if you've seen it, but somebody sent us the message with a great person. I [00:06:00] did see that. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like, I think that's the solution, right? It's just to be like more dialogue. Learn from people that are someone, send

Kyle: us a message and you just give no details.

Someone, someone sent us a message, well, they sent

Gary: us a message in relation to the First Nations. 'cause I think I wrapped up the whole saying, Hey, we should have somebody a little more qualified to comment in this. And then they have, yeah. So the person they

Kyle: mentioned, uh, I, I bought the book actually. Okay.

Um, which they, um, recommended on there. I would

Gary: just see if you can get it on the podcast, it'd be great.

Kyle: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I wanted to mention the book here. Um, let's see if I can pull it up. You can blab her while I pull this up here.

Gary: Well, the only other thing that's, uh, fresh in my mind is that my wife said she only listens to the podcast so she knows what's going on in my life.

That's old news. Yeah. Well that just, I didn't listen the first time she said it, so it hurt this time.

Kyle: Well, good thing

Gary: you a short term memory 'cause you're gonna forget real soon too. That's true. That's true. Yeah, we don't know if that's 'cause I smoked a lot of pot when I was younger 'cause it was a Beekman had my last elders meeting last night too.

So that was interesting. Oh yeah, you quit. Why'd you [00:07:00] quit? I didn't quit. Who said I quit?

Kyle: I assume you, you step down. No,

Gary: it's not how it works. We have six year terms. Oh. You can keep lifetime sentences there,

Kyle: right? You can, uh, you can keep going. Guys. Go for longer than six years. They

Gary: do. It's, it was the group conscience that spoke, so they said they, it's pretty special.

They felt like they had, felt like I'd been there long enough. Yeah. Six. Too long. Too long. Okay. Wish had shorter. The book is,

Kyle: uh, the New Trail of Tears by Naomi Schafer Riley. Um, and how Washington is drawing destroying American Indians. A much needed rev, uh, revelation of heartbreaking conditions on the American Indian reservations.

Um, but she starts the book with, uh, being on a reservation in Camloops, um, in BC here. So I haven't read it, but the book was recommended and, and have her on the podcast. So I think I'll do that.

Gary: Okay,

Kyle: because

Gary: I'm, I

Kyle: mean, I'm curious. I'm definitely curious about

Gary: it. Uh, and I just think we have, like, we have so many First Nations people in our community, right?

And it is there. Yeah. I think there is a lot of sensitivity around there. And I, I [00:08:00] mean, I hope I wasn't insensitive in our last podcast. I just feel like, hey, if you can't even talk about something, you know for sure something's wrong if you can't talk about it. Bingo. We know for sure we have issues if we can't talk about something.

Right? Yes. So now granted there's,

Kyle: which most people have in their lives. They

Gary: do.

Kyle: Yeah. I was talking to someone some morning and I was like, uh, do you think this, this person has things they've never told anybody?

Gary: Yep. You can often tell, I can tell just by meeting people, I can be like, okay, pretty, there's a lot of secrets bottled up inside this person.

This is very problematic. Right? Yeah.

Kyle: And not even self-aware. Yeah. Which sometimes is even like, I was thinking about it this week. I was like thinking myself four years ago. I was definitely way less self-aware, but there's ignorance. Do you feel like you're self-aware now? Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay. But ignorance is bliss.

Yeah. And you're a very happy person. Well, at some degree I was like, man, I wish I would just like was unaware. And of course that's not the answer 'cause that caused a lot of other problems. But yeah. Yeah it does.

Gary: Okay. Anyways, it was [00:09:00] just interesting to um, back to the elder thing. It was just interesting to.

Well, it felt like I would almost died or something. Right. But just the idea of like, well, 'cause it was, it's been such an, a formative part of my, uh, my journey. Right. And I've always been even basically, how do you reflect on it? your six years as an elder? Uh, always the same. Always. Um, I mean, I, I wrote about it in the elders update.

I always feel like it's just the, um. And every Christian should probably have this, but it happened really through that process of being an elder through COVID at church and just like being ground down. Like I just, that's how I feel it was, I was feel it was way more about my character development. And obviously there was a long ways to go, but there was just like, it was really special to be part of an amazing group of, uh, guys that were, it was like, yeah, you just, you have to be u you have to be unified.

Like you just have to have a horrible church if the elders weren't unified. Right? Mm-hmm. And I guess, um, did it ever get to your head? No. No,

Kyle: no, that happens. I mean, that, that, like in the reform churches it says they're, they're only supposed to have, I think, two terms and they're supposed to step down [00:10:00] for the, for the reason of, you know, power gets people's heads.

Gary: I wouldn't even know if it's that the only, I don't think that's the only reason you would step down. I think that stepping down is just super HI think it would be, I. You wouldn't be wise to think that, hey, there's not other men in this congregation that are fit to lead. And I think that very soon you would have that idea of, Hey, these are the people that need to be there 'cause they're there.

No, like God would call, I guess similar to my journey where it's like I've never felt fit to be there. Not when I started and not when I ended, but I know that my character had changed in a positive way from the day that I stepped into the role. And, um. I think that even just seeing the challenges of like church is just a messy place, but it's, it's, it's going to be like it, you know, the people, everybody would be pretending the church, a

Kyle: healthy church would be a messy place.

Yeah. But I think because if, because I realize everyone,

Gary: but the, you need good leadership, right? Like, I mean, and I think that, um, by example. By example. And I feel like, um, for me, I think that the fear could be that very quickly you can become too legalistic. Like I think even, um. Embarrassed to submit that, but I can [00:11:00] become, and most people would say, you're not legalistic, you're heathen.

But like, you know, like, I, I feel that way. It's like, boy, like on what? On anything. I just think right away. What's an

Kyle: example of something you'd get, you would get legalistic about? Legalistic about

Gary: I, not even legalistic, but just so judgmental of someone else's sin where it's like, man. Be careful throwing stones and like, yeah, you're allowed to call a brother or sister out on their sin.

Like that's not, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like we, we should be able to have accountability, um, but do it gently. Don't think you're better than, and I mean, just like if somebody really understood the gospel, I guess I feel like, boy, you should. No matter where you're on your spiritual walk, whether you're very, you should still be very gracious knowing who we are in ourselves and where we've come from.

And I think for me, even, and I, there again, I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I feel like there's times where it's just like, oh, you get frustrated, or hey, that isn't that not obvious? No. Many people have seen me over the years and been very frustrated and been like, dude, you're, you should be smarter than this.

Kyle: Yeah. Um.

Gary: So I feel like that was part of my, my journey. And I think even just the idea of [00:12:00] like in business, or at least in most of my life, it's very much, Hey, he who pays the piper calls the tune. Well, that's not how it is in church leadership. It's like, no, you have, you know, obviously you're trying to follow the will of the Lord.

Everybody's wrestling with it in their own heart. Yeah. You discuss it. And even if you dis, I mean in our church we don't vote, which is different than a lot of churches. Like everything in our church is done by consensus. Right. And we don't even vote people in. So like I was talking to the guy the other day where I think they're picking a bunch of new elders, but you don't

Kyle: vote like as in like, well, we don't bring it before

Gary: the congregation and everybody.

Say this guy or that guy, and I mean, I agree with that model, but that's very but

Kyle: the congregation can recommend people, right?

Gary: They can, yeah. So they would put forward names, but then the rest of the process is like a, I don't wanna say casting lots type process, but it's very much a like discernment, praying, interviews, interviews.

Filling out stuff kind of like it's this sifting out of, hey is this is God calling? And then the people are recommended get put up. They do. One more time where, so like you know, if anybody had any concerns, which would be very similar to, because you had a whole bunch of people

Kyle: get call, call on you right when you got put up the first first time, they're like, you [00:13:00] you know who you guys put up?

This guy dragged goats around or something. Oh

Gary: man, they didn't bring up that. But there was enough other stuff about the goat situation. Embarrassing situation. Again, it's embarrassing. That's from when I was like 19 years old. Do we have to talk about it? It was 25 years ago, huh?

Kyle: I don't know. Maybe someone doesn't know

Gary: the goat situation.

I can already picture this reel. I can picture and I mean, your editors from the Philippines, so they have a lot of goat pictures. You never know what'll show up there in the, in the, in the reel. Oh dear.

Kyle: Okay.

Gary: The goat was dead. Oh hold, no harm. Harm was done. You dragging it long enough? No, no. Dead the whole time it was dead.

It was dead from the beginning. Actually.

Kyle: That reminded one time I was with my, uh, my buddy, um, and

who drags dead animals around and, uh, people we

stole a she from somebody. And, uh,

Gary: are you sure you wanna share this story? Maybe not. Okay.

Kyle: Okay. We'll move on to infertility

Gary: in, that was a weird segue.

Kyle: I. [00:14:00] Okay, this is a comment we got.

I'd really like to hear Gary's story about in his experience with infertility, any insights you can share for those going through similar struggles, how, when and how do you decide to pursue adoption? How do you handle hurtful comments from friends and family about having children while dealing with your infertility?

Okay, so I'll start with this. You get married. Did you have any idea before he got married that you were infertile? No, but that's 'cause I was really dumb. Why? What do you

Gary: mean? Um, no, I didn't know. Alright. No, but you should feel like you should have known genuine question. I don't know. I know. I'm just, I'm not in a great head space today.

I don't feel like I'm safe to record. I said to somebody earlier today, I'm like, man, one of the blessings of me recording is a general rule. I'm pretty reserved. Right. And when I'm not reserved, we're in deep trouble.

Kyle: Well, I, that's fine. No,

Gary: that's fair question. Um. No, I didn't do the right things before I was married, so I just think, Hey, you know what?

Like what does that mean?[00:15:00]

Kyle: No, I'm serious. Like, what do you mean you didn't do the right things? You were married? No, don't remove that. Like,

Gary: like you, you, you hurt your No, I was in relationships before. Yeah, right. And, and I, and I had premarital sex, so it's like, well, I'm just like, okay, this is, uh, oversharing. Now I feel like I'm oversharing.

But anyways, I think that. Very soon after we were married, like probably less than six months. Right? We did not, um, we were getting pregnant. Yeah. And, um, you know, first year newly married, so whatever. Not, not concerned about it. And I mean, this is part of like the hurt probably in our marriage and my shortcomings as a husband, but like, it was obviously it wasn't as important to me and I was laser focused on building a business and doing a lot of other things.

Um, and obviously it was relevant and we talked about it. Um, but it was weighing way more on, on, on when did you realize,

Kyle: hey, there might be something wrong.

Gary: This is, these are questions you gotta ask Marie, but Well, you don't know. [00:16:00] No, I do not remember the timeline. I know, I know when we started the adoption process and I know that journey from kind of like, you know, well, must know the doctor be like, Hey,

Kyle: we're not getting pregnant.

Gary: Yeah, we were. And we went to specialists and all kinds of stuff and did all kinds of testing. Did you know issue? Yeah. And I mean, it's a bit of a mix, but it was for sure me, like, um, for sure. How do, how do you figure

Kyle: that out? If it was for sure you like, how do you know that?

Gary: Just by testing. Okay.

Kyle: Yeah.

You're dancing around this issue, man. Well, it's just like how crass do you wanna be on a podcast? Right? It's not crass, it's a genuine question. Like people are dealing with this and I, I don't know, people only

Gary: wanna listen to so much talk about Gary Seaman, right? Like just do not wanna get out the microscope and go there.

Okay. Let's go back to the question. The question was, I'd like to hear

Kyle: Gary,

Gary: we may have to cut this whole, we might got this whole thing. Some people are literally like, okay, I can't finish my lunch now. I says, pardon? Gary, what I'd like to hear Gary's story about

Kyle: his experience with infertility. Any insights you can share with those going through similar struggles?

When and how do you decide to pursue adoption? Okay, so when I. [00:17:00] Interact with someone that's married for a couple years, whatever, and they kinda have kids, you instantly assume they don't want it. Wait, wait. Well, I'm assume you don't even know, first of all. So first of all, like what questions do you ask?

They might have had a child and lost a child. Yeah. You don't know. You don't. So how do, how do you ask those questions and. If you're in that spot, how do you deal with it? So you obviously realize that you made some mistakes and that you were laser focused on your business and that you weren't like maybe as

Gary: caring as a husband.

Yeah. But like, yeah, and I, and that has been the general trend. If I talk to guys and I do talk to guys that are in the same situation, right? Sometimes it's their fault, like, you know, because of them and some, I was gonna say fault, that's really dumb. But you know, sometimes, but you can help it, right? No. Um.

I dunno. Maybe it's 'cause I like sprayed a lot of chemicals on trees when I was a kid. Never wore a mask. Like, who knows? Right. Whatever, whatever. But, um, I think the, uh, yeah, just nuked it. Right? But the idea of I says, pardon, we're on a bad run here. The, uh, where I was going with that was, um, [00:18:00] my, my experience is very different than Maurice.

Right. And I think that she we're not asking about Marie we're asking No, I know. Maria will come on and ask her. She will, and she will be very good at articulating this in a way less awkward way and a really caring way that will be really helpful for people. But the, uh. My experience was just that people are, are simple and ignorant and not by choices as a general rule.

And so, like my thing was always comforting Marie, after people would say stupid stuff, right? And just, you know, relax or you know, oh, have you tried this? You know, people, 'cause people don't like the uncomfortableness. Mm-hmm. And so my advice to people is if you ask the question, you get in that spot where it's like, oh, this is awkward.

Always just acknowledge it and say, Hey, that sucks. Or, Hey, I'm sorry to hear that. That's, that's really hard. And Then like just be okay with that awkwardness of like, Hey, it's really hard and there's, there's no solution. You don't need to give a solution. There. There is none.

Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely

Gary: not from a random stranger that's wanna fix

Kyle: everything.

Gary: Getting into some weird situation about why you haven't had children or you know, why, you know, and I think that, [00:19:00] um, okay, so I look at it very spiritually personally. Like I look at it as. People are always trying to control their lives. Yeah. People try to, when I hear people saying, oh, we plan on having this many kids, I'm just like, okay, like stop the presses.

Like the good Lord might just decide that. Okay, so you think you should

Kyle: just

Gary: have 12 Because if you

Kyle: get 12, no protection.

Gary: Oh, we're not going there. But way more about, I feel like I need clea Kleenex. Kyle, I'm having a really, I'm really struggling here. You're fine. You need to, you need,

Kyle: you can go grab that Kleenex if you want.

Gary: Yeah, I need to.

Kyle: Okay. Go grab. Oh, I, I can't get up. So Satic nerve. Oh yeah, we keeping this in here too. So get back here.

Gary: Oh, now we can't have it blow. I am blew my nose like a real beeping. Really not. Should I step out?

Kyle: No. Yeah,

I'm sorry. Okay, so [00:20:00] you're married for a while. You realize you can't. Somebody did say We're raw and uncut.

Gary: This

Kyle: is what

Gary: they

Kyle: meant.

Gary: Just

Kyle: brutal. You'll have to put that mic back in your face. I am sorry. Okay. Um, so you're married for a while. Yeah. Can't have kids. You realize you can't have kids. You, it's a hundred percent that you were told a hundred percent

Gary: basically.

Uh, um, uh, it'd be a miracle basically. Okay. Is what the, uh, doctor said. And then how soon after are you

Kyle: guys talking about

Gary: adoption? First doing fertility treatments. Oh, okay. Started that journey. Kinda like, okay. And I don't, I'm there again. It's been like a decade. What,

Kyle: what that, that's like

Gary: IVF stuff. We didn't go that far.

Um, we did, I think it's called IUI just basically like similar to like with a cow, like artificial insemination, that idea. Okay. Um, and, uh, that just reminds me of one time back then, like, I'd be, I, I sell cows right? For a living. Like I sell cows. I sell the odd bull too, right? Yeah. Whenever I sold the bull, Marie would always like throw a bomb at me, right?

Oh, I hope he's a better breeder than you are. [00:21:00] Is Marie pretty funny? Marie's really funny.

Kyle: Okay. I haven't seen a lot of her, her jokes. So

Gary: mostly at mys, but it's okay. No, she's very witty. Okay. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, we have lots of good laughs together and, uh, she can laugh at herself too, which is awesome. The, uh, so first you did the treatment.

Yeah. And then, and we're kind of on that journey, extremely emotionally taxing for you or her? Oh, when it's mostly taxing for your wife, it's emotionally taxing for you too, but no, it was for sure for her. Okay. Just the, uh, hormones and stuff was, was pretty, uh, quite an upheaval. And then of course, like the, oh, you're not pregnant and that.

Okay. And, and I don't, there again, I don't, how long was that? Two years. No, it was, didn't even go on that long. Or I don't feel like it did. Yeah, like the whole process did. Yeah. The, the fertility treatments didn't, and I think that there, again, it's back to like the spiritual side of it, or I, and I don't wanna hypersize it 'cause I, I think it's a conscience issue.

Like I would put this totally in the conscience camp where some people went and they'd be like, this is black and white. This, this is wrong. Just like

Kyle: homeschooling or not homeschooling

Gary: well, it's definitely more serious than homeschooling or non homeschooling. People

Kyle: put that in cam stuff like [00:22:00] black and white too.

People put everything in black and white cams not that far. But

Gary: no, this is definitely. And actually there's a good friend of ours and she doesn't let, I don't know if she listens to the podcast, but she's talked about it and she's done a lot of research on it and just a lot of thinking about it. And I think there's probably, Christians probably need to weigh into this space more of like, okay, how far do you go?

When does life start? Is this okay? And there again, no, the

Kyle: IVF thing. Yeah, yeah.

Gary: And with IVF, for me it was just like, Kay, when are you playing God? What point is it like, okay, this, this is tumultuous, this is hard on us. I always had like And where were

Kyle: you at in your own spiritual journey at this point? Oh, probably

Gary: not in great shape in retrospect.

'cause what year did you get married? 2010. And this was like in 20 12, 20 13. Okay. 'cause you were years later

Kyle: not doing good stuff until at least 2016. Right? That's when you did Freedom session the first time. Yeah,

Gary: but I mean. There again, I mean, in retrospect it's, it's a spiritual journey. Mm-hmm.

Sanctification iss a process and we were a tiny ways in at that point. I think that for me it was just like, Hey, I'm laser focused on work. Um, I had already fostered as a young man, like already, literally like [00:23:00] five years, six, seven years earlier, single fostered ran group homes. Kind of had a heart for, hey, like there's episode

Kyle: one if you, of the brief gates in the barn, if you want to listen to that story.

Okay. With Gary sharing that.

Gary: Okay. Yeah. And probably like, yeah, I could talk a lot about that. 'cause I feel like that's a space where a lot of us don't go into, 'cause we just don't know it.

Kyle: Yeah.

Gary: And our lives are comfortable, but I feel like we're called as Christians kind of to get in that to some degree.

And obviously looks different for everybody. So I was kind of pushing that and Marie was very against adoption, very against it at first, super. And mostly probably just processing. And there again, I probably wasn't gracious enough. But didn't push it too much. And at one point she was like, I'll never adopt.

And so that's been beautiful, right? I always, and I've told her that and she's aware of that. Like her heart from that spot of like in 2013 of like, Hey, I'll never, four 12 of never adopting to obviously in 2025, it's only 12, 13 years later, having six kids in our home, uh, with a lot of challenges and. And special needs I think is really special.

And um, it's not for everybody, but it's probably for way more people than [00:24:00] why realize, admit it, realize that's, that's how I view it. And I think even foster, I mean,

Kyle: I, I, and, and you're, I, I dunno how you compare this to o other kids, but you have awesome kids. Like I, I, I love hanging out with them and, and, uh,

Gary: they're just, they're, they're

Kyle: just, yeah, they're hoop, they're

Gary: awesome.

But I think when you, like, even now, it's like you have kids that question. You as a parent, they question whether they're your child. They question, they talk about going to live. Yeah. They're, those are things where a lot of people are like, oh, I count. No. Like, they're just kids. They're just sorting out what they process and Yeah.

Whether it's your biological child or your adoptive child or whatever the case may be, kids just need to sort their stuff out and we need to be gracious and allow them to vent. And uh, if they feel like they can do that with their parents, that would be healthy. Right.

Kyle: So, so do you remember when you decided that you're gonna go forward and pursue adoption?

Or if, was it fostering first in adoption? It could happen.

Gary: No. It was adoption first and we adopted privately and it was very quick. Like we, we had very unique, you decided and very unique experiences. But what, but how did you

Kyle: go from, okay, we're gonna adopt? Like you said, Marie wasn't [00:25:00] open to it at all. We went

Gary: and met a private agency in North Vancouver, had a meeting at their office.

Kind of like the, actually willing to

Kyle: do that from, yeah.

Gary: And there again, just talking about it. Marie's very, yeah, and Marie's very gracious. I mean, it was

Kyle: Go counseling and talk about it

Gary: or No, no counseling. Just all between you two. No, just push, push, push. No, I don't think you'd have to, I don't wanna speak for her.

I feel like I'm totally gonna be saying the wrong things here, but, okay. I mean, infertility is, I guess what I would say is, and there again, this, this might even be, people may disagree with this, but I feel like, hey, God would choose that some people. Cannot have kids. And what does that mean? Does that mean that they're supposed to have no children in their home and they're supposed to care for other people's kids?

Does that mean they're supposed to adopt? Like that's just a personal journey, right? I mean, if you're praying about it, you have peace with the decision you make and you're trusting in, in God in that process and, and I think we have to do that in all of our lives. It's just kids seems like a big deal. I look at it like,

Kyle: well, I think it comes especially from the idea of like, this life is not about us.

Like we're called to [00:26:00] serve others. And like, and lay down our life for others and, and give, and usually, especially North American culture, I think in, in the church as well, it's about our comfort and what we want and what's great for us, which is contrary to, yeah. Even

Gary: now I feel like, uh, you listen to, I.

You listen to people like we listen, I listen to people even in my stage of life in the early forties or whatever, and they're like talking about empty nest stage one day and this, and like, we don't have necessarily that aspiration, right? We have children that. They talk about living with us forever and they're serious or whatever, you know, just the idea of like, Hey, you know, these kids may need, need some help.

And so I think that you're right. I look at, you know, parenting probably similar to marriage. It's not necessarily meant to make you happy. It's meant to make you holy. And obviously, you know what, there's many joys and, and things in the struggles along the way. And, and what about people that are

Kyle: interested in like adoption, adopting, or, um.

Fostering, but it's a deflection of their own problems. Like [00:27:00] I'm, I'm just gonna go focus on helping other people, but like they're not ready for Yeah. And it'll

Gary: be a horrible, horrible experience. Like there's nothing worse than nothing worse. Adopting thinking you are saving somebody is very, very problematic.

And I ran, we, we were literally somewhere publicly the other day, ran into a couple and they're trying, they're in the process of trying to adopt a job. They're pretty transparent about it. And you could tell like by everything the person was saying to me that they fully think. They have a savior complex, like, Hey, we are rescuing this.

No, like think of it from the child's perspective, right? Not biologically connected. Like, Hey, where is my mom? Who is my mom? Who is my dad in our home? You know, there's multiple birth dads. We don't know who they are.

Gary (2): Yeah.

Gary: That's heavy. That's sad and like. Yeah. Are kids well, well loved. Yeah, they are, but like, they're gonna have to work through their stuff and they, they deserve to be, that deserves to be acknowledged.

And they don't need to think that, oh, they have it so good 'cause they're in our home. Like, it's not, there's, it's not always great. Right. And I think that people just need to realize that hey, we're called, whether we be, this is how I view it. Whether it's [00:28:00] your biological child, like in your case or in our case, adopted children.

We're called to, you know, teach our children about the Lord, care for them as well as we can in that moment. You know, help set them up. With a foundation of, of truth and, and to be, you know, great members of our society and what happens after that. We've talked about that before on this podcast, but I think that that idea of wearing the weight and obviously parenting matters, and obviously, you know, you know, people can really hurt their children by doing damaging things, but this idea of, Hey, they're my kids.

Like, I don't like the terms like that kind of.

Kyle: Yeah. I mean, nothings, everything. Everything we have is against. Yeah.

Gary: So, I don't know. Infertility you, it is messy. You call

Kyle: it your money.

Gary: Yeah, it's definitely my money. Oh, okay. Just not your kids. Just not my kids. That's funny. True. That was the funniest part of the true Dutchman.

No, I'm, I'm totally joking. But that was, was funny as last week. 'cause the inheritance one. Oh, waiting for my inheritance. I, like I said, I don't ever watch this podcast. Did, did podcast mom say anything? Did your mom get a text? No, she always listens to it on Saturday. So I'll get a call Saturday night saying you're cut out of the will.[00:29:00]

That's fine. Okay. Nor for everyone else

Kyle: moving on. Uh, uh, listener question. Uh, in a podcast, you and Gary mentioned your assurance. What do you mean by that growing up? CRC. Which is either Canadian reform or Christian reform.

Gary: Yeah.

Kyle: Uh, I've never heard of that term. You said something along the lines of your assurance wavered or changed depending on how close you were in your relationship to God.

To me, this is foreign. When I became a Christian, personally for myself, my assurance of going to heaven or being a with Christ never wavered or changed. Did I have moments of doubt, questioning and moments of anger or lack of intimacy with God, of course, but my assurance of being united with him never changed.

Expand on it.

Gary: Yeah, I guess my, my experience was, and probably still is a bit that some people, or how I felt I was taught was that, I don't wanna say, you could never be sure you're really saved 'cause it probably wasn't that strong. Although that teaching is prevalent. I've heard some that come out of [00:30:00] somebody's mouth in the last year.

Um, so that's really dangerous 'cause that wouldn't even be biblical. Um, but my experience was just the idea of like, it was way more hate. You could never be. Um, you know, you couldn't do anything yourself obviously, you know, which in theory, there again, like, you know Yeah, I agree with that. Like, obviously we're not saving ourselves.

Matt Keen

Kyle: is twitching right

Gary: now. He is twitching, son of a beater. Um, but yeah, so my exp yeah, my experience was just this idea of like, hey, you know, you can't do anything. I had a very fatalistic view. Um, and it's fascinating 'cause man's responsibility was taught right. Like it was, so I think, and they see.

Well, no, I'm just saying even at school, like there, there was a lot of sound teaching. It's just this idea of like, if something's talked about too much, it it, like it's, my mom has always said it best, it was about emphasis, right? So like everybody's getting taught essentially as a general rule, the same stuff really, but it's just like, Hey, what are you [00:31:00] hyperfocused on?

Right? And so I think that's where even like we've. Talked about how the Bible's preached at a church. It's like, it's super important that you would just go through chapter ch like books of the Bible from front to back, not skipping a verse. 'cause pretty soon, you know, you're, you're butchering, uh, yeah.

Scripture if you're just cherry picking the texts that you feel are as a pastor. Right? And so my experience of kind like the assurance was just like. There was a lot of focus on, you know, holiness and these things, right? Which obviously are, are, you know, yeah. Are important. Some

Kyle: idea, like when James says, uh, um, faith dead, faith works is dead.

And so people would say, if your life shows has a lot of sin in it, how can you be sure that you've actually believed in Jesus and, and come to faith and or got converted in whatever way you want to say it. And so. The reason I think people struggle with lack of assurance, uh, at least in the background that we come from, is because they see sin in their lives.

And, and they just think, how can I ever be doing this How can I be a Christian if I'm still dealing with this [00:32:00] stuff? And that's, especially, especially in my own experience, skyrockets when you have secrets in your life, you're not telling, telling anybody about you feel like a fraud. Yeah. And you feel like a fraud.

And then so then you really, with insurance, well, you're fraud really. Fair enough. Yeah. And the interesting is you're not actually struggling with. Uh, if God is willing to save you, you're struggling with if you actually want God. Because the Bible's really clear that he wants to save us. Uh, the issue is, is like, do we actually want him more than we want sin?

Even,

Gary: even that, like there's a ver I just, um, you know, not God is not willing that anyone should perish or something. There's that verse like that. I don't remember that ever being taught when I was a kid. Like, and there again, I'm sure it was like, I'm sure it was like, I'm sure it wasn't. Hey, we're skipping over that verse.

But that posture of like, God really wanting to save people was not my perception. Right. And even the idea of like young people, like. Like, why would you not, why would you not become a Christian when you're young? Why would you, not if God's, you know, prompting you as a young person, but it was just this idea of like, almost, you couldn't be like, and there again, it was probably my own heart and my [00:33:00] own idea of, hey, I just wanna live how I wanna live.

For sure. It was for a season. Um, and then once I became a Christian, it was just the idea of like, hey, we're starting to read through the Bible and reading. And I mean, Paul's a great example. I'm, I'm reading right now in acts, you just read Paul's story. Like Paul was obviously a rowdy, doing a lot of really horrible things.

Instantly became saved. And then, you know, even everybody around there, all the Jews are like, what is going on here? Like, you know, it was wild. But he talks about, you know, he talks about still sin. He talks about being the least of these. And I think that should, to me, that's a comfort. It's a comfort to me.

Guys like David in the Bible are comfort to me. I'm also reading. Yeah. I'm, you know, it's, I think the

Kyle: key thing is those guys repented, right? Like they turned and repented from their sins and confessed it.

Gary: Yeah. But I think this comes back to where we were talking earlier. This feels like the worst podcast I've ever recorded.

Now I'm having flashbacks too. Some of my earlier conversations, but I am, uh, going back to the early podcast where I talked about, um, legalism or just the idea of being judgemental. Like even now if I look at my heart, it's like, okay, well. If you're [00:34:00] critical of everyone else, like, you know, you're also critical of yourself.

Yes. You know, if you are ripping other peop, like you have that same condemnation yourself. Yes. And it's like, that's, it's not, it's not, there's no scoreboard. Right? Like God's not keeping score of our lives. Like, no, there, there is reward for. Good deeds. There's all these things like, that's biblical, but like, it's not a like, oh, now you're safe, now you're not.

And I think that's where, that was almost the mentality.

Kyle: Mm-hmm.

Gary: And, um, that is really dangerous. And of course ultimately it's, it's sinful, but it's, it's or, or an,

Kyle: or an absolute of like, Hey, if you go to, I. You know, Canucks game means you're not safe. Or if you like go shopping

Gary: Sunday day. Well, anything like if you, you know, if someone had an affair, it's like, hey, like, yeah, David had an affair and then whacked the guy like, you know, and he was so like, there again, that's not the barometer, but it's just that I believe that story.

No, I got quite drunk naked.

Kyle: Like I was pretty drunk. Not that drunk.

Gary: Like that's really drunk. No, but just like, Hey, we are sinful people. And I think, boy do we make, uh, do we make horrible examples of Christians when we start to be that pretentious of, Hey, we're doing all the right things. Um, you know, the world's watching and they know Christians screw up.[00:35:00]

Yeah. And so, boy, can we just show where our hope is in rather than, you know, how, how good a deeds we're doing. And, um, yes. That whole assurance thing is it, it's, it's really damaging. And I mean, it's just the idea of like, and this is. I was gonna say, it reminds, I

Kyle: have a quote, I don't know if it was John Owen.

Yeah. He said, uh, on his deathbed, um, take all my good works and all my bad and all my bad works are all my sins, and put 'em on the same pile, but just gimme Christ. Yeah. Uh, like that's ultimately our hope is in, it's not in like how good or I'm doing or how bad I've, I, I've been like, our hope is in

Gary: what Jesus did.

Somebody we were, I was talking yesterday, somebody about something similar to this, just about the struggle we have and kind of how we. How we act as Christians. And I think that, you know, because every journey we're on has, is a road and there's a ditch on either side. And I feel like even, you know, if, if you look at where we come from, and maybe you're a little too far one way and then you're gonna be really, the pendulum swings, right?

And so I think that the healthy thing is to always be challenging your own thinking, listening to things that. Like for me, well be be

Kyle: [00:36:00] in

Gary: the, be in the word, for sure, be in the word, but even just the idea of, hey, we're all listening to podcasts and sermons and you know, pick different stuff. Like don't just pick one, Hey, these are the guys I like.

Like if that's your thought process, I mean, you may be picking very great teachers, but like. They're the guys you like. Yeah,

Kyle: yeah, yeah. Do you trust

Gary: your own judgment? No,

Kyle: and I think, I remember someone saying to me one time was like, I, I don't listen to John Piper. 'cause then I have to check if the sermon is true or not.

I'm like, you don't have to do that in your own church. Like, you don't have to check like you're with your own pastor and, and, and, and compare it with the Bible. Uh, like that's what we, that's, that's what we should be doing. We should always be checking if it's, uh, if it's true or not.

Gary: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know.

It's, it's fascinating how. That's

Kyle: great because you have the other side of it, which is, I think it's C. C or Canadian reform or Christian Forum where they assume that they're safe as soon as they're baptized and then then they, or, so something along those lines. I don't, correct me if I'm wrong, someone can leave a comment.

No, I'm staying outta that. And uh, and then basically you can just do whatever you want. Stand out of that. Oh [00:37:00] man, you got too many customers there. You don't wanna pissed off or what? No,

Gary: I'm not worried about the customers, but just I think you really wanna be, unless you've lived in a community and fully understand how, how the thought process is, and even there, there's gonna be a broad spectrum.

Yes. So you're gonna really wanna be careful just saying, Hey, oh yeah, that's brushing, that's the,

Kyle: that's the other side. Side, right. Like on Sunday they talked a little bit about the importance of dads talking to their own kids at home, you know, and, and modeling things themselves. If you grew up in a home, in any Dutch perform church or any church, whatever, and, and your dad doesn't talk about faith at all.

Or your mom and your par or your how you, how you grew up. And it's not, not something that's talked about in the home and your only interaction with it is from your teacher at a Christian school or, or your church. And then you're gonna just hyperfocus on a few little things you've learned and that's where your theology is gonna be based off of versus someone in the same church who's parents are super involved and teaching them.

Uh, and there. Um, view is gonna be different again. And so you can't, it is really important. You can't really paint the whole, a whole church with one brush because everyone's experience is so different. Like, my experience is very [00:38:00] different with my dad being a pastor than the next person, right? Like I was there was I.

I could ask 'em that a question anytime. Uh, you know, there was always pastors, uh, and people over and stuff like that. And, and so you're just, you, you just have a different angle again.

Gary: Yeah. I guess the, the reason I think the insur assurance thing is important and the reason it's actually, I think it's really sad.

I. And even in my own life, it's been that, where it's like, man, do you ever lose your witness when you feel like you're not qualified to even profess your own faith? Right. And I think that a lot of people do struggle with that. And I think that, yeah, it's a primary importance and,

Kyle: um, I, I I think that happens the most when those people, when people aren't being open, like the Bible says for a reason, confess your sins one to another, like one if you're confessing your sins one to another and consistently doing that.

And, and then it's your assurance goes up because, but if you're hiding stuff, that's when you start like, yeah, not talking, talking to people. Right. That're not gonna gospel or something. And that's

Gary: fascinating. That's what's fascinating about I guess the culture I grew up in where it was just the idea of like, man, this stuff was talked about so much, [00:39:00] but never at a personal level.

Yes. It's kind of connected to what you're saying about even the thing at home, you know, and I had Christian parents, but like this idea of so many people, they are like hammered with the importance of doctrine and doing all these things yet. The parent could never even say, Hey, this is where I'm at with God, or This is my walk with, 'cause they didn't have one or, or they just couldn't talk about it.

'cause they were, it was foreign, so scared. Right. So like, not necessarily even just out of not having any relationship but just, hey, this is private and this is per Yeah. Like that, that's just not biblical. That's the whole Bible is the opposite of that. It reminds me, I

Kyle: remember my first time I heard a prayer of someone saying, I love you to God in a prayer.

And I was like, whoa. How do you, how can you say that? If you're a Christian, you do right. You love God and say, I, I I love you. Like it's ultimately God's after our affections. He's not after our behaviors, he's after our heart.

Gary: Our behaviors naturally should, uh, reflect our heart. Reflect our heart. Yeah.

Thankfully. Yeah. Okay, well, we're not gonna answer the next question. Okay. Not that one. You go do another question. We don't need to shut her down. [00:40:00] We're just not answering the, now we know what the next question is is we're, we're overtime, but there is no overtime, so we're good. We're way overtime. No, they're like, we're at 40 minutes.

I had somebody call me this morning that I listen to the podcast and they're like, they were, uh, yeah, they were just like, oh man, you need to have to shut her down. Like there's no time restraints. Guys. You own the podcast. You can go on as long as you want. I have a coaching call. Um, I had a que something else I wanted to talk about.

Okay. I'll do one more. Oh, I was going to, uh, play the clip too. I wanted to, we'll play it next time. Both 'cause you'll

Kyle: post the time, but they didn't follow through.

Gary: Sorry? I said I'll post the time. Yeah, we had a Sunday sermon, sermon on drinking.

Kyle: It's getting back to me on texts.

Gary: Yeah. A day later, two days later.

Depends, depends

Kyle: when it's convenient for Gary.

Gary: Yeah. Gary's not a slave to this phone. Not a slave to other people's whims and command. He's a

Kyle: slave to his own goals, his own, uh, um. Okay, we'll end with this, um, reading. Uh, I went last night to, uh, child dedication. Um, so Ollie is getting [00:41:00] dedicated to Sunday.

Okay. Um, and so it's very similar to what, uh, a Pato infant Baptist church would do in that you, uh, go to the front and, and you, um, make a vow to try to raise your child in the fear of the Lord. And the church also, um, chooses to come along. Yeah. Uh, with doing that. Um, but there's no, no, uh, no baptism, of course.

Um. But they, uh, brought up the some different bible passages and they, uh, brought up, um, Psalm 1 27, uh, verse two and three. And it says, unless you, it is useless for you to work so hard from early morning until late at night, anxiously working for food to eat for God gives rest to his loved ones. Children are a gift from the Lord.

They are reward from him. And just coming from the culture we grew up in, um. To hear it is useless for you to work so hard from early morning until late at night. Like, what are we doing? Like God says. Um, uh, God gives rest to his loved ones. He says like, like, I got you. You don't need to be like, [00:42:00] trying to gather more, more, just on more and more just on the seventh day.

And then he talks about children as being a gift. And often we don't treat children as a gift at all, right? We're like, we're just often the culture, it's just like they're, they're a pain in the butt. There are a lot of work. Uh, there are a lot of work, but they are, it's the most beautiful thing. I think it was just a beautiful encouragement.

I think for people to realize, hey, like your kids, that's, that's your greatest gift that you, that one of the greatest gifts you've been given and just working more for what? Like for what? A few more square feet like, you know, chasing, you know, Ford Lightning, like whatever, second floor lady. So anyway, I thought that was, uh, the Bible speaks for itself.

But anyways, thanks for listening guys. See you next week. If you have any questions or comments, send 'em in. Uh, love answering them and, and, uh, reading them. And, uh, oh yeah, check also, if you haven't watched it yet, uh, last week, Saturday, I posted my, uh, episode with Trey, uh, Artis, um, F 18 Pilot Special [00:43:00] Forces, uh, Marine, um, who's gonna come on as a coach for furiously Curious coaching.

And so, uh, check that out and if you're interested with working out with him or me, um, feel free to reach out. Cheers, have a great week.

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