Helping Women Heal From Being Married to Religious "Men" I The Testimony of Sharmen Kimbrough -EP 39

November 15, 2025

KYLE: [00:00:00] [00:00:10] Welcome back guys to another episode of the Furiously Curious Show. I am here with, uh, Charin, uh, Kim, bro. Is that how you say it?

SHARMEN: Yes. [00:00:20] Yep.

KYLE: Okay. Um, and you do work with, uh, women mainly in, in healing from emotional, uh, abuse or all [00:00:30] kinds of abuse. Maybe share a little bit about what you do and where you work.

KYLE: Okay.

SHARMEN: Yeah, so I work both with the Marriage Recovery Center out of Seattle area, and then I also have my own [00:00:40] practice called Live Found. Um, you can find me@livefound.org. I do, I would say I do work primarily with women, [00:00:50] mostly because that's who. That's often who seeks help. Although I have, I have several men, clients, couples as clients.[00:01:00]

SHARMEN: Not opposed to that. We just all know that on some level, women are the ones that tend to seek help more often. So, all that to say, I work with both. [00:01:10] But yes, generally speaking more with women, um, more of my programs are driven around the women that come to me as well. But I, um, [00:01:20] I really work on, I call it identity work.

SHARMEN: Like at the end of the day, I think that we are here, the human journey is about [00:01:30] finding God, knowing God, understanding how he created each of us as our own person. Working that out in the context of [00:01:40] attachment and relationships and, um, finding our place in the world, not because we make it be what it is, but because it's in conjunction [00:01:50] with how God created us, what his work is in joining in that.

SHARMEN: So, and how, how did

KYLE: you, okay, so how did you get to that point? Because that's a, a pretty well [00:02:00] articulated belief, um, and you seem, um, confident about it and that doesn't happen overnight. So what's your story? How did you get to that [00:02:10] conviction

SHARMEN: in, in a nutshell? Um, you know, I grew up, I'll give you kind of the flyover of my story.

SHARMEN: I grew up one of six kids [00:02:20] on a farm in Washington state, um, at the second of six kids and the oldest daughter, which I think has some implications in how the rest of that part of the [00:02:30] story turned out. But, um, my dad, our family. You, you would call it a Christian home, but very legalistic. Um, fairly [00:02:40] fundamental.

SHARMEN: My dad ruled it, so to speak, in a way that was like, he used, um, scripture to keep us all [00:02:50] obedient essentially. And, um, yeah, it obviously doesn't go well. Just gonna,

KYLE: I'm gonna, I'm just gonna interject there. Okay. What should he, what should he have [00:03:00] used to keep you obedient? What would it be the opposite of scripture to keep obedient.

KYLE: Do you have that?

SHARMEN: So, so God is [00:03:10] about relationship first. Where obedience flows from that. So when you love God, you do what he says. [00:03:20] You can't do enough of what he says, obedience to God to make him love you more or less. Or to be in relationship with him, or to be in, I'll put [00:03:30] it, right. Relationship with him.

SHARMEN: So my dad's idea was the legalistic side of it, where you do all the things to look like [00:03:40] something. And what that looked like to him was how honored he was, you know, doing what he wanted done, so to speak, becoming the kind of person [00:03:50] he wanted you to be. And that, that, because it looked like that it was supposed to translate to a, a relationship, I guess.

SHARMEN: But as we all know, that [00:04:00] if there are rules without relationship, it almost always translates to rebellion because it's a dictatorship. It dictate. Yeah. Because you [00:04:10] can't have connection and attachment when it's just about trying to keep all the right rules. So all that to say, his idea of keeping all the right [00:04:20] rules is more important really than in relationship in, in his own understanding, and I don't fault him for this, is he never processed it different than that, but his own [00:04:30] understanding was that's what a Christian family looked like.

SHARMEN: But it culminated in me leaving home at 16. Um, he had taken me outta school. He was [00:04:40] angry about how I was showing up as a 16-year-old girl in life, which wasn't like, I wasn't dabbling in evil [00:04:50] things, but I was definitely coming into my own. And powerful parenting actually produces stubborn, powerful kids.

SHARMEN: And, um, so he took me outta school. [00:05:00] I ended up leaving home knowing that at the end of the day, there was nothing I could do enough to satisfy him, to [00:05:10] enable me to live a life that actually was more in line with what God was calling me to do and to be. And so even as a 16-year-old, I left knowing that there was [00:05:20] a, that God opened that door for me to leave.

SHARMEN: Like I didn't make it happen. It was in front of me. And I'm like, that's God asking me to [00:05:30] sit down at 16 years old. Something at At 16-year-old. At 16, yep.

KYLE: Okay. At 16-year-old. So would you have been a Christian then yourself at that time? Oh yeah.

SHARMEN: Yeah. I would say even with the [00:05:40] way we were raised as kids.

SHARMEN: Somewhere along the way, God, God had a hold of my heart and he was still, he was teaching me even with the dynamics of growing up [00:05:50] in a home like that, that. That wasn't a picture of God to me. Like we're told that our dads teach us who God is and that our [00:06:00] understanding of what God is like is based on our dad somewhere in there, and I can't even tell you how, I don't really know, I didn't process it as that.

SHARMEN: Somewhere along the lines, some [00:06:10] taught me that God was different than my dad, but, but I did know that. And so when I left it was, it was kind of this idea of me and God against the world. [00:06:20] Like I remember thinking as I am riding a bicycle 20 miles into town, um, in the middle of the night to leave. I [00:06:30] remember thinking, my dad honestly believes that he is doing the right thing, but I know that it's not.

SHARMEN: I wanna step into [00:06:40] what that right thing is, whatever that is. I wanted it to be something that was leading my heart towards life, towards really knowing God. That was, that [00:06:50] again, that freedom of identity. Yeah. Even as a 16-year-old, there was a, there was a seed of something there in that, um, it's pretty impressive.

KYLE: I mean, most people get there when they're like [00:07:00] 45, so.

SHARMEN: Yeah. Well, I started early on the journey by leaving that environment, it did catapult me into having [00:07:10] to, to really process that because then I was thrust into this realm of, I'm a sophomore in high school, my friends. Care about me, but [00:07:20] they don't have the wherewithal to understand the head space that I'm now catapulted into.

SHARMEN: Um, I definitely, as a farm kid, I had the mindset of I will do whatever it [00:07:30] takes to make this work. I can figure it out. I am, you know, a really strong work ethic as one of those things you gain as a farm kid. And, and so being [00:07:40] in that space and then also combating the, the church, putting a lot of pressure on me as a kid to honor my mother and my father, to [00:07:50] go back into that environment, even though it was actually oppressing my heart, it was silencing my heart to where, [00:08:00] you know, I could feel that that actually drive away from God rather than teaching me to love God better.

SHARMEN: And so, [00:08:10] you know, struggling some examples of that. Um, I, so an example would be, you know, I had people, well-meaning. Elders of the church [00:08:20] saying to me that I needed to go back home, a apologize to my dad for being rebellious and submit to his authority, which a [00:08:30] again, his authority was to take me out of school because he didn't like who I was being.

SHARMEN: And so that was his way of, you know, [00:08:40] drying me close to him. Essentially, his words were, to me, were at the time, um, you are going to hang out with me every minute of the day. He had, he owned his [00:08:50] own construction business, pool, construction business, and he said, you don't have to work. I'm not gonna make you work, but you are going to hang out with me until your attitude changes.[00:09:00]

SHARMEN: So essentially what I was being told by, well, people that honoring my dad meant trying to [00:09:10] be, submit to something that he couldn't even define, let alone try to understand because he couldn't define and being told that that was [00:09:20] godly. That was godly. And that for me What you think, what do you think your

KYLE: dad's thinking was at that time?

SHARMEN: I, well,

KYLE: because you're dealing with a lot of these men that are dealing, that are doing [00:09:30] these things. Yeah. Right, right. Or like the wives of men that are doing these things.

SHARMEN: Yes. The only, I don't know what he was thinking other than what his [00:09:40] behavior was. So I know he took offense to me leaving I've, you know, been, I'm a rebellious person.

SHARMEN: I was told that he [00:09:50] thought I was running away with my boyfriend. Which I didn't. I moved in with a, a girl from school that, again, God opened the door, connected me with this [00:10:00] person. I knew her from school, but she wasn't even an inner circle friend at the time. And, um, you know, I was just making it work away from that environment.

SHARMEN: But [00:10:10] I, I do know that he believed that I moved in with my boyfriend, that I was shacking up and being rebellious. And beyond that, I don't know what else he thought I was [00:10:20] doing. And I also know, I found out later, probably the next year, that his immediate response was to have me legally emancipated. [00:10:30] So he took the effort to go to the court so that he would have no, and he never told me.

SHARMEN: I didn't know. I found documents later that, [00:10:40] um, you know, showed he had, had me legally emancipated, but. That was his response. And then I heard, which was a familiar tone, I'd heard from him about other [00:10:50] things. I'd heard him say to a family member that I will come crawling home on my knees and beg for forgiveness to which I couldn't understand.

SHARMEN: 'cause I'm like [00:11:00] forgiveness from what I don't understand that mentality. So to

KYLE: this, so if you go back to him, his reaction to you leaving, [00:11:10] but before that he wanted you to stay and do pool work with him because you were not behaving at school or something. I wasn't,

SHARMEN: I wasn't, I [00:11:20] wasn't behaving in the way he wanted to.

SHARMEN: So for some, this was like the final straw. So there's a lot of things that, and that landed us here. [00:11:30] But, um, so I guess

KYLE: my question is what is your, what is a, a man in the position your dad was, or like believing before you moved out about [00:11:40] how he rules that? Justifies what he's doing. Does he, does he not have capacity to receive love himself?

KYLE: Does he not understand his own [00:11:50] identity? Do like, does he, what are the beliefs that the, that

SHARMEN: mm-hmm.

KYLE: You know, a stereotype in this segment would be believing or thinking

SHARMEN: if [00:12:00] I, if I were to go back and, and name it, I would say that yes, he did not have the capacity to receive love, and his [00:12:10] understanding of love was obedience.

SHARMEN: Because as a child, what I saw, often my mom bore the brunt of his ire more than [00:12:20] the rest of us. Six kids. Although I think a couple of my siblings would take issue with that because they bore the brunt of his eye as well. But [00:12:30] the things he would say to her and blame her for were things like, um. That she was destroying our [00:12:40] relationship with him, like she was turning the kids against him, which wasn't true.

SHARMEN: It was his own behavior that made us not want to be around him. He is angry and [00:12:50] violent and did not even bother to try to understand someone else's perspective. So he would blame her, I would say. He didn't, he, [00:13:00] he would physically push her around, harm her, call her names, blame her for things. Um, not able to [00:13:10] see how much like her entire life was wrapped around trying to keep him happy, but it was never enough.

SHARMEN: So, yeah, not to be able to accept that [00:13:20] love. Um, when he, oh, he didn't, he didn't

KYLE: understand the gospel then.

SHARMEN: He didn't, although he would, he would verbally tell you [00:13:30] the steps to be saved and. He, he did a lot with the church in terms of, you know, [00:13:40] service helping missionaries. He owned his own airplane and so he really prided himself on flying missionaries around to places.

SHARMEN: 'cause that was his way of being engaged in [00:13:50] That was his obedience to make God happy expressing the gospel. Yes, yes. Very works-based in so many ways. And yet that didn't translate to kindness [00:14:00] and service at home at all because in what I saw was that he was the one to be served in the home. Hmm. And anytime [00:14:10] we didn't do that in a way that meant something to him, and it was very hard to understand what meant something to him, um, then he would [00:14:20] just be angry and demanding and, and dangerous.

SHARMEN: Yeah. So, you know, the older we got, the more we learned to just stay under the radar to stay away from him. And, [00:14:30] um. Wow, it was hard. Thank you

KYLE: for sharing that. I'm sorry that happened. So you were 16, you moved out, um, and what happened next? How did you get [00:14:40] into what you're doing now?

SHARMEN: Yeah, so I finished high school, went to college, actually went to college in East Texas.

SHARMEN: Um, and [00:14:50] just my mentality was just about showing up in my day. I didn't even think twice about going to college. I don't know where that was planted in my head, but I'm [00:15:00] like, I gotta make it in life. I gotta find my space. And so I would say those, um, those three years between 16 and 19, finishing up high school and [00:15:10] going to college, um, that was a lot about, um, you know, still reinforcing who am I and how do I show up in the world?

SHARMEN: And, you [00:15:20] know, it was very much me and God against the world and it was actually a good experience. I. I thrived in, I thrived in it actually. Um, it was hard. It was pretty [00:15:30] lonely. 'cause like I said, most other kids my age, even my own friends didn't really have the wherewithal to be in that space with me because they're doing [00:15:40] 16, 17-year-old kid things.

SHARMEN: And I am not so went to college. The next season of my story was I, I got married, I met, [00:15:50] uh, I met a guy at the university I was at, and, and at the time I knew that, I knew that, I knew that that's who God had for me to marry. Like, I'm still walking in that [00:16:00] space where I'm thinking, you know, God, you're gonna lead me where you have me to go.

SHARMEN: And, and thought at the time that it was. [00:16:10] A redemption of this whole first version of my story. Because he was a preacher's kid. I believed that, you know, how he [00:16:20] showed him up in life looked like someone who wanted to honor God. And that if anything ever happened to us relationally, it would be, [00:16:30] you know, finding out how, what God had to say about how to do relationship because it looked like he had a relationship with God that was very different than [00:16:40] what I saw, how my dad related to God.

SHARMEN: And so, um, fast forward, um, fast forward [00:16:50] at about year 13 into the marriage, he started telling me that he didn't wanna be married anymore. There were all kinds of things that, um, came out about [00:17:00] his understanding of what our relationship had been, his understanding of me, um, things that we'd never talked about.

SHARMEN: That I never saw [00:17:10] under the surface, even though I can tell you now, looking back, we weren't actually very connected and, um, what, what were those

KYLE: things that you see now looking back, that that made, you [00:17:20] know, you weren't connected?

SHARMEN: Um, the things I see now, like I felt disconnected from him, but he was a pilot as well, and so gone several nights out of the week [00:17:30] I was left to, I was a stay-at-home mom at the time of two little boys, and so left to be the caretaker of the home, which again, I'm happy to do that.

SHARMEN: I [00:17:40] thought, you know, this is what it looks like to be a good godly wife is take care of the home, take care of the boys. We were both in church ministry, both on the worship team at [00:17:50] church, and so serving God together, my expectation is that while there was distance in the relationship, it was the season that we're in.

SHARMEN: He's gone a lot. He's, [00:18:00] you know, earning the money to provide for the family. I'm happy to keep the home running and, but I, what I realize is that. Um, [00:18:10] I had to be shallow. I, I didn't actually talk very deeply even about faith-based things, which I know sounds crazy. 'cause we were in church ministry. I just [00:18:20] expected that internally we're walking with God.

SHARMEN: Where, I mean, I knew that I was, I was still really leaning on God to be [00:18:30] God. I always had the ongoing conversation in my head of walking with God through my day. And

KYLE: were you, were you able to have really deep conversations with girlfriends at that time?

SHARMEN: I [00:18:40] was with a few.

KYLE: It's not, it's not, it's not like you didn't know how to have real deep, open conversations.

KYLE: It just wasn't happening in your neck. Right.

SHARMEN: It wasn't happening within the, my marriage. And the reason I [00:18:50] say I wa I did with a few is because I was, I was very guarded against, uh, not against about the kinds of friends that I had. I didn't have time, I didn't [00:19:00] have emotional wherewithal. For shallow stuff.

SHARMEN: And so I had a hard time connecting with people that just wanted to be shallow. And it is hard to find [00:19:10] people that wanna go deep. But I will tell you, I, I remember my heart feeling alive in those relationships where I was allowed to [00:19:20] just speak freely about how I was interacting with God, with the world, with who I was and how I was showing up.

SHARMEN: And, but I spent a good bit of [00:19:30] my time and not being able to live in that kind of space. And so that's where I felt the most disconnect in the marriage, is that I realized I wasn't able to be [00:19:40] real about what was going on, be below a certain level. And you know, after, after the fact, I realized that's as much [00:19:50] because he wasn't offering me the space to do that.

SHARMEN: And that when I did make the space. It, um, he would reframe it in [00:20:00] terms of that was his own understanding. And so what I learned is that I can only talk in terms of how he understands the world that anything else [00:20:10] was. And to this day, I, I don't really know. He couldn't wrestle with it. It, I don't know if it offended him.

SHARMEN: I don't really know. [00:20:20] I just know that I wasn't really allowed to be me. And that when he started telling me he wanted a divorce, it, um, the things that he would bring [00:20:30] up about me were so dis distorted that it didn't resonate with me at all. And so, you know, I questioned a lot. How did [00:20:40] I become such a monster to him?

SHARMEN: And what's wrong with me? What's broken in me? Uh, I took it on to be my own fault that, um, that [00:20:50] he had such a, uh, an unhappy experience with me and he. Well, I would've said those 13 years were [00:21:00] like, we had the kind of marriage it looked like to other people. We had the kind of marriage people wanted to have.

SHARMEN: But the way he talked about it was that it had never [00:21:10] been anything that he really wanted it to be, and yet had never expressed that beyond, you know, the normal arguments or [00:21:20] disagreements we'd had along the way. So was

KYLE: that, was that just stuff he was making up 'cause he wanted to leave the marriage and he was seeing somebody else?

KYLE: Or like what was the

SHARMEN: [00:21:30] Yes. Like there was enough truth in the things that he said that made me question like, what did I really do? But at the end of the [00:21:40] day, because he was a preacher's kid, and this is me putting it in my own understanding, what it looked like to me is because he knew. [00:21:50] God, he knew the rules.

SHARMEN: He knew what the rules, so to speak. He knew what this was supposed to look like. And as he's wrestling with the things of his own [00:22:00] heart, it was, it felt to me like he had to turn me into a monster so that he could justify

Speaker 3: Yeah,

SHARMEN: the other relationships that he was [00:22:10] chasing. And so it, it took him six years of the last six years of our 19 year marriage [00:22:20] for him to talk himself into that, to rationalize and justify that enough to actually file for divorce.

SHARMEN: And, um, and yeah, [00:22:30] I, at some point in there, I had to distance myself from his internal stuff because I couldn't understand what was going on in him. And it, it [00:22:40] positioned me to answer your original question, a long roundabout way to answer your original question. It positioned me to have to get. Super [00:22:50] serious about who am I, who has God created me to be?

SHARMEN: What was my fault and my responsibility in how I did show up in this [00:23:00] marriage, or, and how I didn't like to look at that from that perspective of that, you know, being a, a good godly woman, [00:23:10] um, spoken a little tongue in cheek meant not just what I gave up to be in a relationship with him, but honestly what I brought to [00:23:20] the table as well.

SHARMEN: And I surrendered some of my greatest gifts, some of the, the most powerful things that God had put in me to be [00:23:30] a life-giving influence. I'd actually given those things up.

KYLE: Like what?

SHARMEN: Like to be able to speak truth [00:23:40] in, in moments where, you know, when. Either of us was dysregulated to be able to speak truth into those moments [00:23:50] without fear.

SHARMEN: And, um, and to be assertive, you know, I am really pretty easygoing and so it was really easy for [00:24:00] me to say, I don't care what we do. Like, okay, that works for me. It was also really easy for me when I didn't know how to put to words something I was really thinking or feeling, but [00:24:10] he was offended about it was really easy.

SHARMEN: So was this, so was still brokenness him put words.

KYLE: Okay, go ahead. So was this still brokenness from your understanding [00:24:20] of a relationship that you had with your dad and that, that you weren't healed from, like, if you would've done the work? And the original question I asked was, what is the importance of personal healing?

KYLE: Restoring a [00:24:30] broken marriage? Yes. So you, you're saying that you needed to go now on your own journey of understanding yourself and, and your value and, and how, what you had to offer, if that would've [00:24:40] happened the year before you got married, do you think? You would've had the boldness to speak truth or would you not have gotten to the marriage then?

KYLE: Because you would've noticed, hey, we're not having real [00:24:50] connection and relationships.

SHARMEN: I would say when I came into the marriage, I felt [00:25:00] pretty like, you don't know what you don't know.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

SHARMEN: I felt pretty steadfast about who I was, so to speak. [00:25:10] And at the same time, I do realize that I was very guarded and hidden.

SHARMEN: So I tell people so often [00:25:20] that recovery of anything looks like coming out of hiding. And so to answer your question, I would say yes if I had done more work, even as [00:25:30] confident as I felt, as confident as I felt about marrying him, um, if I had done more work to help me put to words. [00:25:40] Who I was, what was going on in me, to just to be able to interact in a space of like figuring out life together.

SHARMEN: Even we don't [00:25:50] know. We don't know, and to be okay saying that, I don't know, and I need help figuring this out. I think that would was my part of [00:26:00] my trauma response. Out of growing up as one of six kids, a farm kid with a dad like my dad. What I learned was it is up to me to protect my own self. [00:26:10]

Speaker 3: Hmm.

SHARMEN: It's a, no one understands, you know, no one cares.

SHARMEN: I am invisible. No one cares. And so, in so many ways, I did [00:26:20] hide myself from him. Even though I told myself I was okay with that, but it definitely wasn't living in a deep relationship because you [00:26:30] cannot, you cannot be connected to everything in hiding. So anything I kept behind, closed doors just locked away.

SHARMEN: Like I'm not showing the [00:26:40] vulnerable parts of my own heart. There's no chance to connect to that. And so, yes, even though I will tell you I wanna be a deep person, that automatically puts me in shallow [00:26:50] relationships.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I'm

SHARMEN: not gonna show you where I'm afraid or where I'm confused or where I'm really struggling and hurt because I can't figure this out [00:27:00] because it's on me to figure it out.

SHARMEN: That's right.

KYLE: Yeah. So when you say that you, um, gave up parts of yourself for the relationship [00:27:10] or, or didn't allow yourself to be open, it was not just that, but it was also that there was healing that had an. Happened yet. Mm-hmm. In just your own [00:27:20] world. But that breaking, but the breaking of the relationship brought that to the surface.

SHARMEN: Yes. Yeah. Okay. I realized that I need to [00:27:30] put to words what's going on in me. Mm-hmm. So, as you know, within the context of the relationship, he's bringing this stuff to the table now, [00:27:40] you know, initially I had no idea even how to respond to it because my whole, um, approach was to try [00:27:50] to fix his pain, to try to make sense of his pain, to try to, you know, bring some truth to it without actually putting towards what was [00:28:00] going on in me, in reality.

SHARMEN: And so, yeah, it did, it took God removing that safety. That space of safety for me to [00:28:10] unravel what I believed about God, about relationships, about faithfulness, about, um, depth, about my own [00:28:20] identity. To unravel all of that, to be able to put it into words to show up differently so that I really could connect [00:28:30] deeply with the people around me.

SHARMEN: Because at the end of the day, I will tell you, attachment disorders, attachment issues are the [00:28:40] foundational basis for every single disorder that we can name, um, from the dsm.

KYLE: Yeah. Whatever the label is opposite. Opposite of addiction is connection. [00:28:50]

SHARMEN: Exactly. Exactly.

KYLE: So, so, so you're in the, near the end of your marriage, it breaks up and you go choose to do all this healing work.

KYLE: But [00:29:00] I've, I've seen a lot of people that are in that position and they choose not to. They shut down, they shut down more, or they, they are even less seen because I isolate because [00:29:10] the evidence, they have more evidence now that, Hey, I'm worthless because their husband just left them. Or, you know, what, whatever else has happened.

KYLE: So what made you not go down that path? [00:29:20] How did you, did you have people around you? How did you choose to know where to go and that you needed to do self work?

SHARMEN: Yeah, I, a part of it is, I, I [00:29:30] know it, it was the voice of God in me because like I said, even as a child there was something about, um, something about God's hand on my [00:29:40] life that kept me in a space where I was always receptive to him.

SHARMEN: I can't explain it beyond that, but I. I remember thinking early [00:29:50] on that you know it as a P farm kid who can make it through anything. Right? Again, that mentality of I will do whatever it takes to make this, and [00:30:00] pretty adamant about not just accepting mistreatment from people, although to finding mistreatment is probably a, an [00:30:10] important aspect to look at as well.

SHARMEN: I could have easily said, you want her? Here's your crap. Take it and go. [00:30:20] Right? I could have easily said that from a place of just self-protection, self will, anger, whatever. I could have said that, and [00:30:30] I, I probably did say it in my head a few times. However, there was this piece of me that said, at the end of the day, I know that God is God [00:30:40] and I do want to honor him.

SHARMEN: I need to know what that really means. The things I've been taught about honoring God, being surrendered to [00:30:50] God, I think need to be unpacked because I want, at the end of my story, I want my story to be Jesus looking me in the eyes and saying, that was really hard, but [00:31:00] you walked it well. I needed to know what well meant.

SHARMEN: And so that was like the voice at the back of my head. Even when I'm like, [00:31:10] why, why bother? Because trying to walk it well landed me here. Hmm. Now what is it gonna be worth to walk it, try to walk it [00:31:20] well without, you know, self-protection, without, um, putting some things into place to make sure that I'm provided for, to make sure that this [00:31:30] relationship doesn't fall apart or, you know, all the things in my own understanding about what it meant to.

SHARMEN: Be well. And so learning to redefine that, learning to [00:31:40] um, to actually walk in that space where I'm like, God, today makes zero sense at all. I don't even know what direction to step. [00:31:50] And yet I know that, I know that at the end of the day you are God in whatever you're doing here. I may not understand till the other side of heaven.

SHARMEN: So help me to see what my next [00:32:00] step is. And so that kind of evolved into a space where I could pray every morning, God, whatever you have for me today, the answer's [00:32:10] yes, just hit me over the head with it. 'cause I'm really stubborn. I just wanna honor you. And the surrender piece of it that's so important is, and [00:32:20] I trust that my times are in your hands and it's not my job to make things happen.

SHARMEN: It's my job to show up. To be [00:32:30] in the space that I'm in. It's your job to make it happen, to do what you're gonna do with it, to make people see. It's a,

KYLE: that's a really important distinction. Yeah.

SHARMEN: Yeah. So, so yeah, it was the [00:32:40] voice at the back of my head that just said.

KYLE: Okay. And what was the work that you did go and did?

KYLE: Was it, was it, uh, recovery groups or how did you find your identity? Like how did you [00:32:50] figure that out?

SHARMEN: Um, well, a big piece of it was just trying to show up every day. I spent, I can't tell you how many hours I spent [00:33:00] literally on the floor in front of my Bible just going, God, show me your truth. I don't like, I just need something that speaks hope to me.

SHARMEN: And so a [00:33:10] lot of it started there. I listened to a lot of podcasts. Um, I had to move from, and this is a typical position that [00:33:20] any of us are in, we're taught. To, to listen for someone to tell us what to do. You know, it's the whole obedience mentality. Someone else tell me what to do. [00:33:30] So I had to kind of move from that into a sphere of, God, teach me how to think about what you're asking me to do.

SHARMEN: And so [00:33:40] I would listen to podcasts, I'd read books, but I would read 'em from the standpoint of, I'm not just looking for someone to tell me what to do or to how to be, but where's the truth in it? And then [00:33:50] how do I apply that to my life so that I am walking out a space where I can hear God say, you're doing it well, I'm sorry it [00:34:00] still looks like this.

SHARMEN: Well, you're, you're basically figuring out what

KYLE: you believe Yeah. Versus what other people say you should believe.

SHARMEN: Exactly. Exactly.

KYLE: So, which, if you don't value yourself, you [00:34:10] don't do.

SHARMEN: Right. Yeah. Because if you don't value yourself and you're just in self-protection mode, which people get confused about that.

SHARMEN: You know, [00:34:20] if I value myself, I would protect myself. Except self protection mode often looks like doing what's right in our own eyes, to [00:34:30] stay safe, to stay connected, to get what we want, to feel loved, whatever it is. But it's all in our own strength and power. [00:34:40] Whereas, you know, actually figuring out what we believe interacting in that space is, it is a walk with God.

SHARMEN: Yeah. It's the [00:34:50] Holy Spirit in us that tells us what is true. So learn from that so that you can bring real substance to the world around you.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. [00:35:00] Okay. So you do that work, which is I mm-hmm. From, I understand the work that you help women do now is

Speaker 3: Yeah.

KYLE: Find, find their identity. Yeah. Um, and so you ended up [00:35:10] becoming a counselor, or how, like, how did you get called into what you're doing now?

SHARMEN: So I was a stay-at-home mom. I did have an undergrad in psychology, but [00:35:20] stay-at-home mom. When I realized, so again, I kind of about year 13 is when he started saying, this isn't gonna work for me. Um, when [00:35:30] I realized that he was not turning from that at all, like there, once he had decided he was done, it was that he was getting what he was looking for.

SHARMEN: So he was trying to build [00:35:40] the evidence to be okay about getting out. I realized that I'm like, I'm gonna have to do something to provide for myself to, [00:35:50] to do something with my life. And so I went back to school, got my graduate degree in psychology, and, um, and argued with God about [00:36:00] that. I was actually looking for.

SHARMEN: Something shorter and sweeter and, you know, not so much, quite so much effort to dive into. And I [00:36:10] argued with the stand from the standpoint of God, how can I be a voice to people healing their marriages when mine looks like this? Like, clearly it [00:36:20] didn't work in my life. Um, but for whatever reason God just kept saying, just do this, step into this.

SHARMEN: I'll unfold [00:36:30] it in front of you. And so I did. Um, and then, um, it was probably a year after I graduated, I got connected with the Marriage Recovery Center. [00:36:40] So I'd been doing some coaching on the side, a little bit of identity work stuff, but, um, got connected with the Marriage Recovery Center, um, [00:36:50] just to bring to them.

SHARMEN: I introduced myself to Dr. Hawkins by saying, I'd love to add a dimension to your programs that does help. Capture the, the, [00:37:00] the women, the wives whose husbands have said, I'm done. I'm out. You're on your own. Can I start some programs that are meant about helping her find her own footing [00:37:10] when all seems lost and he's done and out?

SHARMEN: 'cause that's essentially what my story had been. And so that launched, I've been doing this now for 15 years and

Speaker 4: Awesome. [00:37:20]

SHARMEN: Um, yeah. It's been a thriving practice, both with the Marriage Recovery Center and my own practice,

KYLE: unfortunately, fortunately, a thriving practice.

SHARMEN: Yeah. [00:37:30] Because

KYLE: it means there's a lot of hurting women out there.

KYLE: Yeah,

SHARMEN: it's true. Yeah.

KYLE: One of the things that I had Dr. Hawkins on recently, and one of the things that he mentioned was that when [00:37:40] there's an emotionally absent husband or abusive husband, um, that the woman should be putting her foot down and, and threatening to leave the marriage [00:37:50] or at least separate until they choose to do something different and that that pressure is needed for them to.

KYLE: Realize the significance of the issue. [00:38:00] Mm-hmm. In hindsight, if you look at your own story, do you think if you had, um, that wherewithal at year 12 or 13 that the story would've been [00:38:10] different? Like, did you accept his behavior too long? And, and what do you recommend women do that are in your position when you were at year 13?

SHARMEN: I, [00:38:20] I think it depends on the circumstances. I, I know where Dr. Hawkins is coming from, and I would agree that. Most of [00:38:30] the men who come to the marriage recovery center at their wives behest come because she has threatened to be done right. [00:38:40] Oftentimes, it's kind of a last, it's a last resort to come to the Marriage recovery center.

SHARMEN: And um, so he comes essentially go checking the box. Well, she says I [00:38:50] have to do this, or she's going to leave. And when that's the case, yeah, if you've said you're going to leave, that you are done with this relationship, it is [00:39:00] super important to follow through with that disconnect because otherwise, most often what he has learned is, you know, you might make all kinds of requests and [00:39:10] all kinds of noise Before that it, that culminated in meaning nothing.

SHARMEN: 'cause he just changed his behavior for a little bit of time and you were okay and it went. Right [00:39:20] back to the status quo. Right? And so I agree that that's true. I think it depends on the circumstances. I, [00:39:30] I, my ex-husband and I were separated enough time-wise because of his job. He was gone a lot. Um, I don't know that [00:39:40] a separation would've made a difference because part of his complaint was that we weren't connected, and so he wasn't afraid of a further disconnection.

SHARMEN: [00:39:50] Um, so in that case, you know, walking it out the way that I did, which was like, I chose to stay, I tried to stay, well, I, I used [00:40:00] it as an opportunity to go, well, how would Jesus love Jesus? Loved people who didn't love him in return. So how do I try to embody that mentality [00:40:10] knowing that the way the ways I'm pouring into this marriage aren't going to get return?

SHARMEN: I practiced that. But again, you know. People do what [00:40:20] they want to do. Mm-hmm. They're motivated by their own pain. And so yeah, a lot of times it does take a wife saying, I am done [00:40:30] trying to tell you how painful this is for me. I need you to feel your own pain, and that means me letting you sit in the consequences of your own [00:40:40] choices without me.

SHARMEN: And that can be super powerful. But I would do it. I would have her do it because that is her taking charge of [00:40:50] the space that she's in. With the byproduct being that it's leaving him to think about the space he's chosen to be in.

KYLE: Yeah. Because he, because he has already [00:41:00] chosen.

SHARMEN: He has. Yeah.

KYLE: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KYLE: And what about previous to those 13 years? Like I, I'm assuming you wouldn't say that your, you [00:41:10] were perfect and your husband was a hundred percent not. Oh, no. Like of course. Um, but so what, uh, so what are some of the things that you see that women are doing [00:41:20] that are not helping the cause before they get to the 13 year mark where it's too late already?

KYLE: Yeah. Um, [00:41:30]

SHARMEN: I think, um, not being assertive, because again, we're groomed to think that submission means compliance, [00:41:40] being easygoing, doing all the things. So not being assertive, assertive enough that when, when something happens that's destructive to the [00:41:50] relationship, to the connection, not being willing to speak up for her own self about what happened there.

SHARMEN: And, um, not [00:42:00] being able to have the words to interface with when her husband is speaking from his own perspective, which, again, the words are gonna be different, but trying to find the [00:42:10] commonality in the understanding, um, is super important. But when you're taught compliance, I was taught compliance. And that if I were to be more assertive [00:42:20] about really what was going on in me, again, one, it expo, it exposed my vulnerability and that was my own work to have to, to think about.

SHARMEN: Like I was, [00:42:30] I didn't show up because that would've been a failure to my own self, but also I didn't give him a chance to interact with what I was really [00:42:40] feeling. And so, you know, even when we, we would resolve a conflict, it almost always boiled down to essentially, [00:42:50] okay, what I will do what you want. And so it.

SHARMEN: It essentially didn't actually really resolve the conflict. It was just me working harder to be more [00:43:00] compliant. And at the end of the day, I wasn't a very compliant person in reality. So, um, so you know, that being more assertive about [00:43:10] when something is going wrong, that's just not working, feels disconnecting.

SHARMEN: Stepping into it, but stepping into it, not to fix him [00:43:20] or change him.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

SHARMEN: But to have a discussion where both people can talk through the things to come to a place of understanding. And so, [00:43:30] um, you know, that being more assertive, not reading minds, right? So we make so many assumptions about what the other person is thinking if and [00:43:40] feeling, and then trying to fix the problem based on what we think is really going on.

SHARMEN: And so, yeah, making room to actually. Ask more [00:43:50] questions or ex express, even if we're wrong, express our own understanding and then, hey, help me see where I'm wrong. And, um, let's [00:44:00] talk about it. So being willing to step into that without the fear of it, meaning you're going to be misunderstood and thus unloved.

SHARMEN: Um, [00:44:10] and actually not speaking up.

KYLE: Yeah. You

SHARMEN: end up feeling unloved.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause you're, well, you're not valuing yourself in, in, in the process. Right. And, and [00:44:20] you might not be aware of it, but it's not lining up.

Speaker 3: Yep.

KYLE: So when you talk about being assertive, um. Does that show up more? Like, do you work with a lot of relationships that are [00:44:30] not just from religious backgrounds, but also from secular backgrounds?

KYLE: Because society has been teaching for the last 40 years, at least in my opinion. Maybe you think differently about this, that women [00:44:40] can be fully assertive and you know, and, and, and are equal. And, you know, there is not this authoritative thing, if anything, men, men are told to be women [00:44:50] more and, and like and de Right.

Speaker 3: Right. Um,

KYLE: and so do you see a big difference with the people that are coming in that like, that are, are dealing with what you deal with that like you weren't assertive because [00:45:00] you had these

Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

KYLE: Not right views of what's mission or helper meant. And then is that not showing up as much in the secular couples you're dealing with or is [00:45:10] it showing up differently?

SHARMEN: It is. I would say it's showing up differently for the most part. So I think in the secular world, um, there's not a clear [00:45:20] definition between assertive and aggressive. So being taught to be aggressive actually isn't that helpful because it's still [00:45:30] not putting into good terms, right? Terms, what is really going on.

SHARMEN: It's, it being aggressive doesn't express the vulnerability and the, [00:45:40] like, deep parts of the heart that need to be talked about, whereas assertiveness does. So by assertiveness, I mean, you know, the capacity to actually put to your own [00:45:50] words, your vulnerability, your fear, your, where you need them to interact with you.

SHARMEN: It's the opposite of being afraid. You're saying [00:46:00] the thing that needs to be said so that there can be an honest, authentic conversation. Aggressiveness is doing that well. It's kind of [00:46:10] self-explanatory aggressively. It's like, um, not an invitation to have a conversation. It's a demand to be heard. And so, [00:46:20] um, I think more, more often.

SHARMEN: Although some of the, some of the spiritual, the Christian world comes to me in, you know, kind of [00:46:30] that aggressiveness as well because, you know, it's becoming more and more a part of the culture. But I would say more of the secular world comes to me from that standpoint of aggression, [00:46:40] feminism, tired of being unheard, so I'm gonna demand to be heard.

SHARMEN: And then more of the church background, people from the [00:46:50] church background come at it from that submissive standpoint of like, I can, it's not, I have no right to be heard because [00:47:00] that usurps his authority and they have, I would say, a wrong definition of authority.

KYLE: Interesting. So that the same, same root issue just shows up in, in different [00:47:10] ways.

KYLE: Yeah.

SHARMEN: Yep.

KYLE: Okay. Interesting. Yep.

SHARMEN: Still self-protective.

KYLE: Yeah. What does the word in your mind, helper mean? If we dug, dig into the, [00:47:20] um, yeah, the, the church, the church side, what does, what does helper mean in the bis, the biblical definition of, of it? How do you understand that?

SHARMEN: So the, [00:47:30] the phrase I use for it is life giving influence.

SHARMEN: And I, I took that out of, you know, the original, it's actually [00:47:40] two words and I probably am slaughtering how you say them. But Ezra cNEO is the original words translated into helper. [00:47:50] And from what I understand in scripture, Ezra Kdo is only otherwise used to talk about the Holy Spirit in the [00:48:00] context of being a helper in the heat of a battle, when a man is at a loss to do anything else, to save himself.

SHARMEN: Here is the [00:48:10] life giving influence. To help him from that place he is in. And so way more powerful than being in a subversive, [00:48:20] keeps the house clean, the kids obedient, warm food on the table. That kind of, it's way different than that. I think that is such a [00:48:30] spiritual attack on the essence of a woman as a life-giving influence, which how I think that plays out is, you know, so many of the [00:48:40] women that come to me, they have read all the books, they have studied all the thing.

SHARMEN: They have worked so hard to put so much truth in front of [00:48:50] their husbands. Look at this, this could change us. This could be the thing. It's like they're working so hard to change their husbands, not because it's their job to be the [00:49:00] Holy Spirit or to change 'em, but because her essence is to be a life giving influence, which means.

SHARMEN: She's really much more aware of [00:49:10] the death he is walking towards because of his own arrogance or pride or his own self-protection or whatever. And so I think that's part of where the spiritual battle is, [00:49:20] is that is her personhood. She has to find again, but then also learn to walk in it in such a way that she's working in conjunction with [00:49:30] the Holy Spirit, not trying to be the Holy Spirit.

SHARMEN: But yeah, I would, I would say helper is way bigger than what the church is teaching. I think that spiritual [00:49:40] warfare used to be a distraction and a minimization of what God created the power of a relationship to look like because it [00:49:50] minimizes the influence of a woman.

KYLE: Okay. Can you clarify what you said on, um, you said it's not just take cleaning the home or taking care of the kids, [00:50:00] keeping them obedient and stuff like that.

KYLE: You're not saying that that's not that, that they shouldn't be doing those things. Right. Can Okay. Elaborate on that.

SHARMEN: Okay. I, [00:50:10] I think so often what I see, what I grew up in was that, that that was the role, that was her only role. That she had no [00:50:20] voice to speak life giving truth into the relationship. That her job, her role, her God-given role was simply [00:50:30] that, as if there could be no voice in it.

SHARMEN: Which is why so many women, especially stay at home, moms come to us saying, I have no [00:50:40] voice, I have no identity. I, all I am is this useful role of being a helper.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

SHARMEN: So the difference would be that God [00:50:50] created us to be life giving influences and Yeah. Doing all those things, taking care of the home. We are so gifted at that we can do that.

KYLE: So, so if a, if [00:51:00] a, if a woman is saying that, that I. You know, feel like I'm just a stay at home mom and I, I have no value, and stuff like that. That's probably a red flag [00:51:10] that their marriage isn't in a healthy spot. Yes. Because if she's being valued and believed in and loved well, and [00:51:20] allowed to have a voice, she would feel secure and then that feeling mm-hmm.

KYLE: Of just being X wouldn't be there. Peaceful, I'm assuming. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 3: [00:51:30] Yeah.

KYLE: Okay. What's going on in the men's minds? I'm gonna go back to, like I asked earlier a little bit, like what do you think was going on in your dad's minds, but like, why is this [00:51:40] such, how has this become such a problem? Because you're saying it's not just happening in the church circles.

KYLE: Also happening in secular circles where men are not [00:51:50] connecting with their wives and they're not having a voice. Mm-hmm. Like, and, and it, and talking to Dr. Hawkins about it, it seems like it's a pandemic. Um, [00:52:00] like it's everywhere. Mm-hmm. I don't see a lot of it. Why do you think we're in this spot

SHARMEN: again? I think it does boil down to spiritual warfare.[00:52:10]

SHARMEN: You know, God created men to be, actually, he did say it to men and women together to rule and [00:52:20] subdue the earth. Right. That, that, that it's our job to tend for and care for and steward whatever space he's given you. And so [00:52:30] in walking in that responsibility, but walking in that responsibility according to one's own, [00:52:40] um, perspective of what is good or right or true, gonna get him what he wants.

SHARMEN: Help him feel on top of the world, you know, that ego boost kind of thing. So the, I think that pride element of [00:52:50] it, um, that's what gets in the way. And so again, when I talked about surrender to God a few minutes ago, I named it in terms of like, at the end of the [00:53:00] day, what that looks like is, God, whatever you have for me today, whatever it is you put in front of me to do as a woman or as a man, [00:53:10] what you have put in front of me to do, to be the person you have created me to be.

SHARMEN: The answer's, yes, I am all in. And [00:53:20] I'm letting you have the outcome of where that goes. And so the hangup is that outcome piece men, I think more so than women are, although women are as [00:53:30] well, men are driven to prove they've got what it takes to succeed in business, to be powerful. Lovers, [00:53:40] powerful husbands and, and fathers, and, you know, successful in your job, whatever that looks like, because that feels like what success is.

SHARMEN: It's this [00:53:50] outcome driven thing, and it is so hard to release the outcome to God. God, what? Literally, whatever you're going to do with this, [00:54:00] I'm leaving it up to you to do it, because I want my life to be about obedient. I want my life to be, I'm chasing after you, and I don't [00:54:10] wanna be afraid.

KYLE: Yeah. So your answer is just, there's just very few godly men.

KYLE: It's

SHARMEN: hard. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you, if you think about it again, that is the [00:54:20] point of the story. Yeah. Marriage is not the point of the story. It's conte. It's very sacred context.

Speaker 4: Yes. The

SHARMEN: point of the story is [00:54:30] Surrender to God. Do you really believe that God is God? And if so, do you believe that he holds your times in his hands?

SHARMEN: If you don't believe he holds your [00:54:40] times in his hand that he's sovereign, then what is it you believe in A, a feel good Jesus. A lucky charm. Jesus. A ticket to [00:54:50] heaven God. Like what do you believe in?

KYLE: Workspace, salvation, angry God.

SHARMEN: Yeah. Or an Yeah. And, and then what? At the end of the day, what motivation is that [00:55:00] really in you to live a godly life?

SHARMEN: And so I think that's the crux of it, is that surrender piece. And for, for men, it [00:55:10] looks like the success, right? Which becomes a struggle of power and control and dominance and all of that in a very competitive world. For [00:55:20] women, it does tend to be more relationally oriented. But you know, the, again, the key.

SHARMEN: For both is how do you [00:55:30] know who God created you to be? So back to that identity issue, what does he set you up to step into? Still an identity issue because [00:55:40] he's the one that makes it go be mean. What he wants it to. Yeah. And then how do you do that together with your spouse?

KYLE: Yeah.

SHARMEN: Arm in arm [00:55:50] doing life together.

KYLE: Yeah. And it actually isn't that hard to see if someone's in that spot or even as, as a test of [00:56:00] self. And I think about, you know, a story you shared with your dad about him wanting to be served. Jesus explicitly said at the last supper, like, who is the boss [00:56:10] here? And they're like, you are? Mm-hmm. He's like, yep, I am.

KYLE: Now I'm gonna wash your feet. Do as I do. Mm-hmm. That's how you're like, be a servant and, and be giving, or even just the fruits [00:56:20] of the spirit. The fruits of being a Christian. It's love, joy, peace, patience. Yeah. Gentleness like the opposite of these things. And so I think it's just an encouragement for men to, or, and [00:56:30] women to be like, Hey, if we're not aligning with that, then there's, so you're not believing something correctly.

KYLE: 'cause our beliefs drive all our behaviors.

SHARMEN: Right. [00:56:40]

KYLE: Can you explain the gang and grief that comes up in the woman, um, you work with regarding their marriages and, and, and what they're grieving? [00:56:50]

SHARMEN: I would say the biggest grief is, um, is the trauma of [00:57:00] bringing herself to this relationship. Even in naivete, not really understanding, um.

SHARMEN: Her, [00:57:10] her role, her place, her, um, really what God would like this to look like. Um, like guilt.

KYLE: Like guilt that they put themselves here in the first place. [00:57:20]

SHARMEN: There's some of that Yep. Guilt that they should have known. They should have seen guilt about, you know, having seen some red flags and still choosing this.[00:57:30]

SHARMEN: Um, but just the, the biggest grief is, um, you know, being married. There's a connection there. There's a [00:57:40] soul tie there. I've heard it said a soul tie there that isn't easily broken because we are created for permanence. And so when we're looking at how [00:57:50] this isn't as permanent as we believed it was gonna be, our hearts aren't actually created to, to have to experience [00:58:00] being ripped apart.

SHARMEN: We're created for perfect intimacy forever. However, that's what sin did, um, when it brought death. And [00:58:10] so really grieving that space, the loss of everything she dreamed or hoped or thought it would be what she thought she was, pouring her heart and soul and [00:58:20] time into what she thought it would turn out as, and then not being able to control how he responded to it.

SHARMEN: So there's, there's grief in that. There's grief and [00:58:30] misunderstanding what he was really like. So,

KYLE: so just like, just like the men are finding their worth in their work and all those [00:58:40] other things, but they should be finding it in the gospel. Women are find, trying to find it in their marriage and in their husbands.

KYLE: Yes. But they're also trying to, should be trying to find it in the gospel.

SHARMEN: Exactly. Yep. [00:58:50] Yep. Okay. So they're grieving, part of that grieving, but,

KYLE: but they're still grieving the loss of their marriage, or that's the most meaningful thing or, or?

SHARMEN: I, [00:59:00] I think it's more complicated than that. It is the loss of the marriage.

SHARMEN: But if it were that simple, well then you just go find another marriage. It's, it's the [00:59:10] loss of attachment and what that was meant to embody as a, as a Christian woman, a lot of times that's also tied in with their understanding of God. [00:59:20] God, like, like, I, God, I trusted you to put me in a marriage where I would feel you and know you and, and it be a reflection [00:59:30] of you in my life because this is, you redeeming my story.

SHARMEN: Like so. It's so tied in with our understanding of God. God, do you even see me? [00:59:40] Am I, am I just nothing? One of the, um, one of the trauma lies that I've had to break in [00:59:50] my own head is that I'm just this little invisible farm kid from Washington who cares, right? And so that's trauma. That's trauma and, and [01:00:00] trauma equals grief, tr every bit of trauma.

SHARMEN: It's not the event that happens to us, it's our interpretation. It's our takeaway. It's our emotional [01:00:10] Yep. The interpretation of it. And then that turns into grief. It's not what it's supposed to be. And so, so many complicated levels. It's not just about the loss [01:00:20] of the marriage, it's the belief systems.

SHARMEN: It's, you know, when it comes to a divorce, it's the loss of church and church support and family and family support, and friends and friend [01:00:30] support and like understanding and feeling seen and known. It's a very real recognition that you are not [01:00:40] seen or known by most people, and you actually cannot feel loved.

SHARMEN: You cannot feel loved, not just about not. Not just [01:00:50] about loving people, but feeling loved if you do not feel seen and known. Which is why I say recovery looks like coming out of hiding because to connect you [01:01:00] have to feel seen and known.

KYLE: Yeah.

SHARMEN: Even if it's sexy and can't love

KYLE: and you can't love others until you receive love yourself either.

SHARMEN: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE: Well, what does God say, um, [01:01:10] and what does God want for women in abusive relationships?

SHARMEN: I think what God is drawing their hearts toward, first of all is um, [01:01:20] is understanding him differently. Again, I think the point of our whole life is to understand God differently, better to trust him.

SHARMEN: And [01:01:30] so, you know, starting with even just that God, what that, and you can use whatever language you want. God will not strike you with lightning in [01:01:40] our anger and confusion. Whatever can come out of our mouths. But what are you doing here? What the heck are you doing with. I trusted you. So that argument with God, [01:01:50] first of all, what, what is my standing with God?

SHARMEN: And so coming to understand what he believes about you is what breaks the trauma. What is the truth? [01:02:00] Well, you know, I, I can say I'm a daughter of the most High King created and called and purposed for such a time as [01:02:10] this. Whatever this looks like. He's enabled me and equipped me to show up in my day, reflecting him to the world.

SHARMEN: So it's not about me [01:02:20] making my message be seen, it's me being a conduit of his grace and mercy. And I have to figure out what that even means to, to be able to [01:02:30] say, let alone walk out, that it starts there and then becomes a ripple effect into. All the other spheres of influence. How do I [01:02:40] show up? Not what am I trying to make happen?

SHARMEN: And I think that's what God is after in the heart of both men and women.

KYLE: Yeah. You talked about [01:02:50] grief and the amount of grief that people carry because of trauma and there's a, a lot of people with a lot of grief. How do you deal with your grief? Everybody.

SHARMEN: Everybody. [01:03:00] I first, I have come to recognize there is no such thing as being done grieving.

SHARMEN: There is no such thing. [01:03:10] And in all honesty, um, I would say there's a lot of days that my heart still aches as much because I'm sitting in [01:03:20] really heavy stories all day and, but a lot of it is still just feeling the weight. Of my own story, it's, it's still aches, so there's no such thing as being done with [01:03:30] it.

SHARMEN: I don't think there's any resolution. It doesn't always feel the same. And I think with it comes greater and greater understanding of life as we move through life. [01:03:40] And so I think the key is to let it feel what it feels, but don't park there. That's something my mentor said to me. Often it is going to feel [01:03:50] what it feels, so don't try to bury it or, because it'll come out somewhere.

SHARMEN: Don't try to bury it or squash it or whatever. Let it feel what it feels recognizing, you [01:04:00] know, something got lost. You have been changed. Life is different now, and there's things that you have to do differently and make [01:04:10] the most of the time that you have. Like what does that mean for today? You still have life to live today.

SHARMEN: So with what you've learned with. The strength you've [01:04:20] gained by walking through those things. How do you take that to inform being assertive and showing up and being courageous more than anything else? [01:04:30] Not just retreating and isolation and fear.

KYLE: I'm curious. What I see with a lot of men and also very much my own story, is I didn't have know how to grieve.

KYLE: I never [01:04:40] cried.

Speaker 3: Mm.

KYLE: Uh, I, I was just flat or angry. Mm-hmm. Or worked.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

KYLE: Yes. Um, and, and since I've done a lot of my own recovery work, I've learned to [01:04:50] grieve or learn to cry, to cry, uh uh. Mm-hmm. Don't always like it, often don't, but I, um, but how do you wake up from that? Because I'm assuming there's a lot of women that [01:05:00] are off as well and, and, and don't grieve.

KYLE: Mm-hmm. Or maybe's more, maybe it's more men, I'm not sure, but how do you start to wake up? How do you stop. Pushing the stuff down because we're pushing [01:05:10] the stuff down with, and then covering up with drugs and, and, and other unhealthy behaviors things. Right. All the

SHARMEN: coping things. Yes.

KYLE: Yeah. So how do you start Yeah.

KYLE: Allowing it to come up because it's terrifying and [01:05:20] it's extremely painful, especially initially.

SHARMEN: Right, right. I don't think crying is the only means of expressing grief. Um, I know that you do a lot of [01:05:30] journaling, recovery work. I think that is actually the key, because again, what we take away from grief is a message about [01:05:40] who we are, who God is, how the world works.

SHARMEN: That much of it is absolutely a. Spiritual warfare meant to distract, to [01:05:50] isolate, to separate us from connections from other people. Because if we're not experiencing connections with anyone, it is very difficult to experience a [01:06:00] connection with God. So there's that spiritual element of it, but journaling is a perfect way to process the pain.

SHARMEN: I have a [01:06:10] kind of a, a four step grief journaling process. Kind of simple. The first three steps, I, I tell people, sit in these first three prompts for a while, [01:06:20] even though you're gonna be feeling all kinds of feels about it. And then the fourth one is kind of the resolving thing. So what they are,

KYLE: I, I'm gonna, if you can send 'em to me greater later, I'm gonna try [01:06:30] 'em.

SHARMEN: Okay. I'll send 'em to you later. Um, but yeah, the first one, they're, they're kind of simple. First one is, name the trauma. Like what is the [01:06:40] event, the thing that happened that feels like trauma that you're trying to grieve? So name the trauma or the grief, I think they're simultaneous. Trauma is grief, but name the trauma, [01:06:50] name what you've lost, like what got lost because of that.

SHARMEN: Tangible, intangible, whatever. Name as many things as you can. [01:07:00] Again, sit in this as much as you can. 'cause what you're doing is you're literally rewiring your brain while you do this process. So what have you lost? And then how have you been changed? [01:07:10] What did this do to you? And within that you'll start to see also the, the agreements you've made that aren't the truth.[01:07:20]

SHARMEN: What's the message that you took away from this? So sit in those three for just a bit to, um, just kinda let your mind grab a [01:07:30] hold of the bits and pieces of the event that have been scattered across your brain. Because when you're in trauma, you don't remember things all together like you should. Um, it helps bring [01:07:40] them all to one place.

SHARMEN: And then the resolving step is with what you've got left to work with. Now, what do you do? So it's the idea [01:07:50] of finding your stride in life between the grief. This is not what it was supposed to be, and to use a psychobabble [01:08:00] term, the radical acceptance. But it is what it is. You know, God calls us to live in this world, in the space that we're in, letting him do what [01:08:10] he's gonna do with our lives.

SHARMEN: So finding our strides so that we're still living, still showing up, still bringing truth to the world, still being a life-giving influence. Still [01:08:20] connecting to people even while we're really, truly, honestly vulnerably recognizing this brokenness and trauma that is a [01:08:30] still a part of our story as well.

SHARMEN: And I think within that, we begin to live lives that really show how God's strength is made perfect in our weakness. That as messy [01:08:40] and broken as we are in connection with him, we are able to connect to other people.

KYLE: Hmm. What about [01:08:50] forgiveness? What forgiveness, what role does forgiveness play forgiveness of self and forgiveness of the people that have hurt you?

SHARMEN: Um, I think that's actually a really big topic. We could talk for [01:09:00] an hour about that. But in a nutshell, I believe we've been taught wrongly forgiveness within the church that the way we've been taught it is not biblical, isn't [01:09:10] scriptural, uh,

KYLE: what have, what have we been taught

SHARMEN: and isn't healing. Um, essentially it's the idea of like.

SHARMEN: Like when you teach your kids how to [01:09:20] apologize and then how to forgive, it looks like I had two boys, so I'll put this in little boy terms. Be like, dude, you need to go apologize to your brother. You are [01:09:30] not going out to play until you can make this right with your brother. You go apologize to him. You've hurt him.

SHARMEN: Go tell him how you've wronged him and ask for his forgiveness. And I [01:09:40] might have to harp that three or four times because little boys are stubborn, right? My son would then, this is hypothetically speaking, they're adults now. [01:09:50] So, um, hypothetically speaking, my son would then learn that he's not gonna get to go play until he goes to his brother [01:10:00] with these words, here's how I've harmed you.

SHARMEN: Will you please forgive me? Only he's gonna say it. You know, the Tony's gonna use, he's gonna say it [01:10:10] like, oh my gosh, my mom has made me say this. Right? And so, how do we teach forgiveness? It's your job to forgive your brother. It, I'm not letting you go out to play until [01:10:20] you say the words, I forgive you, and you don't hold it against him, what he's done to you.

SHARMEN: Right? And so there's nothing biblical about that, right? We are [01:10:30] told to forgive. And we're, we are told to go make right what we've made wrong. But it is not just the words of [01:10:40] apology or the words. I forgive you. So if we look at the example of Jesus, that's the dis

KYLE: that's the disconnect from the heart.

SHARMEN: That's exactly. So if we look at the example of Jesus [01:10:50] on the cross, right? A real, like there's lots of other times where he has said to people, your sins are forgiven. You go and sin no more. That kind of thing. So that's a better picture of forgiveness [01:11:00] and repentance. Um, but even just Jesus on the cross.

SHARMEN: So if you, if you look at it from this perspective of he is on mission, he [01:11:10] is walking exactly where God has put him to be. This is his mission. He hasn't given any of us a mission to die on [01:11:20] a cross, so that's important to keep in mind as well. But he is on his mission and in the middle of his mission, he looks at these people at his feet that are [01:11:30] spitting on him.

SHARMEN: And however, whatever ways that they're harming him, arguing over his clothes, they're fighting over his stuff. What are [01:11:40] his words of forgiveness over them? Essentially, they are, father, I release them to you to do what you're gonna do with them. Because I am on [01:11:50] mission. Help me not to be distracted by their harm toward me.

SHARMEN: That will take me off my mission. And so I [01:12:00] always talk about forgiveness in those kinds of terms. It there is if we forgave and forgot, that's what the Bible calls a fool. [01:12:10] If we do not learn from the lessons of our life, we are fooled, right? So it is foolish to forgive and forget. [01:12:20] However, the part we are releasing the power of is that that harm determines who I am.

SHARMEN: So I, in forgiving [01:12:30] someone, anyone, whatever they're doing towards me, I do not accept that harm as having the power to determine who I am. God [01:12:40] is the one who determines who I am, and it's my work with God that enables me to show up in the world, being who I am called to be. Um, so forgiving. I'm [01:12:50] releasing them for God to do what he's gonna do in their life while I'm learning what I need to from the story, which may include not having a deep relationship with them [01:13:00] because it would be a fool to continue engaging with someone harmful.

SHARMEN: That's foolishness. And so [01:13:10] it, it will determine the depth of my relationship with them, but it's not gonna determine my personhood. So that's the difference.

KYLE: But I, I absolutely love your [01:13:20] answer, especially the example of Jesus on the cross. And that it wouldn't, that it didn't distract him from his mission because I think we forget that we all have a mission and that we're not just [01:13:30] floating around, um Yeah.

KYLE: Until we die. Yeah. Um, what about specifically forgiveness and, and, and how to do it? Because I feel like there's a lot of ambiguity on there. Like, just [01:13:40] like, is it, do I say a prayer? Like, uh, do I just say I forgive them? Like what, what is this, is it an act of obedience or is it an act of when you want to forgive?[01:13:50]

SHARMEN: I think, I think it goes hand in hand with our walk with God. Again, we're walking with God [01:14:00] looks like our eyes are on him. When our eyes are on him, he puts right in front of us what he has for us. He makes our path straight. He gives us wisdom. [01:14:10] He protects our path, right? So forgiveness looks like my eyes are on God and I release to God, and this could be multiple times.

SHARMEN: This is [01:14:20] part of the ongoing journey to release other people's harm towards us, from having the power to take us off our mission, which looks like [01:14:30] eyes on God, stepping into whatever he puts in front of us to do. And so it is a choice. You know, it's not that hard to get [01:14:40] stuck in that pit again, of, of mulling over what's been done to us and allowing it to, um, crush us to determine who we [01:14:50] are, to put us in a place of, um, actually being self protective.

SHARMEN: I think most often self, self-protection ultimately ends up in [01:15:00] self-sabotage. 'cause we isolate. And when we isolate, that's giving their harm power to determine where we go. And so what does it look like? It, it doesn't have [01:15:10] to look like going to that person to say, I forgive you, but it might, it could, if that person is looking for a conversation to, [01:15:20] to bring connection, repentance, and connection.

SHARMEN: I forgive you could be part of that conversation, but it doesn't have to be for it to be a real thing. [01:15:30] It.

KYLE: So, so for me, uh, the reason I asked is like, I've been taught to do it one way and I don't know of a lot of other ways. So I'm curious if there's other ways. So [01:15:40] I did a program called Freedom Session, where I had to write down every way I'd ever been hurt by someone.

KYLE: Oh, wow.

Speaker 3: Uh,

KYLE: the, the impact it had on me.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

KYLE: Um, [01:15:50] what, what beliefs I've formed and how it. Affects me today. Yes. And then the same thing with, um, every way I'd hurt anybody else, uh, write that person's name down, [01:16:00] that the impact it had on me, the impact it had on them and how it's up today. And then I had a specific forgiveness prayer to pray through.

KYLE: Um, okay. Which said, uh, Lord, if I. [01:16:10] If you have forgiven me for this, then I also let myself go for this. Mm-hmm. And I forgive myself 'cause there's a lot of shame and guilt you carry for when things, we hurt ourselves and then also Right. Letting others go. And [01:16:20] so other people weren't involved at all. It was just me and doing the things.

KYLE: But me actually outlied ver out loud, verbalizing each specific thing. Not being vague, but being very [01:16:30] specific item for item that was like, that's what forgiveness was for me. That like lifted thousands or millions of pounds off my shoulders and I was, I was [01:16:40] free, but it was me just verbalizing and it was through a specific prayer.

KYLE: Now I'm sure there's other ways to do it, so, um, but I always have a hard time articulating like, what's not everyone has to do freedom session. [01:16:50] Yeah. Um, right. But everyone should forgive. So how,

SHARMEN: so in all honesty, that process looked very [01:17:00] much like you could overlay that with the grief journaling process that I just gave you.

SHARMEN: Like in so many ways it's the same thing because trauma, the things we need to forgive people [01:17:10] of is grief. So very similar. It's it's naming the things and then releasing them. Tie that in again with [01:17:20] the example of Jesus when he was interacting with people in, in any of the stories where he came to the point where he said, I [01:17:30] forgive you go and sin no more essentially, or I heal you.

SHARMEN: Go and sin no more. I would say probably the same thing. It is about [01:17:40] undoing what has been faults, a facade walking in self-protection or lies or sinfulness or whatever. Having a [01:17:50] repentance moment and then what going and sinning no more looks like is knowing the truth and walking in it. Being [01:18:00] healed from these things that are harming you, destroying your soul or your body, and then walking in the truth.

SHARMEN: So, you know, biblically speaking, that's kind of what that looked like [01:18:10] as well. And it's not, that's not just about forgiveness, although that's a key piece of it. It's about knowing the truth and walking in it. And so releasing [01:18:20] other people to their own stories and stuff, even when it has been spewed onto you out of their own hurt and [01:18:30] brokenness, releasing them to that in the same way that Jesus did.

SHARMEN: God, you're gonna do what you're gonna do with these people's stories. I need to have my eyes on the mission that you've [01:18:40] put me on. Help me to do that while I release that. I acknowledge and I see what they're doing, but I release the power of that from my own heart [01:18:50] because that's not my mission. So it's that walking through that same kind of process.

SHARMEN: So yes. How you've hurt people, same kind of thing that's comes from [01:19:00] self-protection from naivete or foolishness or whatever.

KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. It's part of the human journey. Call it, actually call it a shield inventory the way you do for other people. Ah, and I love that name. 'cause it's, yeah, [01:19:10] it's self-protection.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

KYLE: Um, you mentioned your two boys earlier and that the marriage started breaking up at around 13 years, so I'm assuming this had a big impact on them in their teenage years. [01:19:20] And you've seen, of course, the impact that your husband was having on them and not being the leader that he should have been.

KYLE: Mm-hmm. That must have been heartbreaking for you. It must have been very hard for [01:19:30] your boys. What recommendations would you give. How, how did you get through that and recommended recommendations would you give to moms that are in this position where their husband is not [01:19:40] showing up or is an absent dad?

KYLE: Mm. And they see this is especially affecting their sons. Sons need dads.

SHARMEN: Mm-hmm.

KYLE: And can you speak to that?

SHARMEN: Um, so in my [01:19:50] case, he chose to show up for them even though he wasn't showing up in the marriage for me as a good example to them. And so, [01:20:00] um, they're both Eagle Scouts. He was their scout master, and so that kind of became their way of connecting their thing that they did.

SHARMEN: Um, and they still connect [01:20:10] in those kinds of way. They do the same kinds of thing, the camping, the shooting, you know, that kind of stuff that they did. That's been their connection. Um, but how I handled it was, [01:20:20] um, again, because I knew his character, I knew that everything in him was gonna drive him to be [01:20:30] a.

SHARMEN: I would call it a good dad to them because that's, that was part of his ego, part of his mentality of, you know, no matter what [01:20:40] I do to my wife, I'm still gonna be the best father they've ever had, type of thing. And so I counted on that in that regard. So I didn't fret too much about, [01:20:50] um, their time with him, other than that example of like, now they have no idea what it means to be a good husband.

SHARMEN: They might know what it looks like to [01:21:00] interact with their dad or their, like my older son now has, um, a boy, a 2-year-old and another one on the [01:21:10] way. So he's gonna have his own experience very soon of two little boys. But, you know, um, knowing what it really looks like to be a a, a [01:21:20] dad. Husband, you know, they didn't learn those things, but what I tried to focus on as their mom, 'cause one of the biggest shifts for me early on [01:21:30] was, you know, prior to him telling me he wanted a divorce, I spent much of my energy just maintaining the home.

SHARMEN: I was a good mom, but it was [01:21:40] focused on caring for the physical needs of the kids, like trying to shoo them off to go play somewhere so I could just take care of the home and feeding them and the laundry and all of that stuff. So [01:21:50] one of the things that shifted was I realized I needed to be more emotionally in their world as well.

SHARMEN: Mm-hmm. In a different way. Because normally I would, when he would come [01:22:00] home, I'd kind of pass them off to him, can you please entertain them so I can get some things done sort of mentality. And then shifting that to being, you know, I wanna be in their world as well. So [01:22:10] what shifted with that was I wanted to show them what it looked like to care for their hearts.

SHARMEN: Not just teach them what to do, but to care [01:22:20] for their hearts, even though their dad wasn't around to show them how to care for my heart. And so, uh, you know, our conversations will often look like me asking, [01:22:30] how's your heart today being little boys, most often it would just be a grunt or whatever. But, but what it taught them was I was paying attention and I wanted to know so that [01:22:40] when there were things that came up, we could talk about it.

SHARMEN: And I think that was one of the things that created some stability for them, even though, you know, I had to deal with a lot of [01:22:50] the, um, just the confusion, the belligerence, the anger, the fear, those kinds of things. But I tried to field it in terms of, [01:23:00] you're right, you feel the way you feel. 'cause this is not what it's supposed to look like, but God is still in the story.

SHARMEN: We're gonna figure out what this looks like together. And you don't have to [01:23:10] figure it out by yourself. And I think as I taught that to my boys, it help them. Um, not to internalize the, the mess to be about [01:23:20] them, but to just figure out how to navigate it while still being boys. And, um, you know, they're both, like I said, they're both adults now, and I would say actually [01:23:30] successful adults.

SHARMEN: I am. I, there's been a lot of moments where I've felt the redemption of the story in my own heart as I've watched them make wise [01:23:40] choices and be out on their own now and still love God and, you know, those things that every mom wishes for her kids anyway. Um, [01:23:50] you know, my kids got through that, so there's probably a ton more I could say about how to do that, how I did that, but probably for a whole nother show someday.

KYLE: [01:24:00] Sounds good. Um, just as a closing remark, I know there's gonna be, especially women listen to this episode specifically, um, that are in the [01:24:10] spot that you were in, in, in the spot that, uh, you help women in. Can you just give a last, some last encouragement to them? Uh, what would you say to them if they're just [01:24:20] realizing they're in this spot, and especially if they're just waking up to the reality of what they're in?

SHARMEN: I would say if you're waking up to the reality of what you're sitting [01:24:30] in, know that that is God awakening you to something that is not what it's supposed to be. And he is not awakening you just to let you die in it. [01:24:40] So what does that mean? Look for truth. Find people who can speak the truth with you to walk through things like the forgiveness, the repentance, [01:24:50] the faith in God, what that really means, what it looks like to be, especially to be a woman in this kind of world and still, um, [01:25:00] to, to like who you are, but to like how that shows up in the world.

SHARMEN: Because that's what helps create, um, the kind of relationship that you wanna be in. Um, and to, [01:25:10] to not do it alone. While at the same time realize that you are going to feel very, very alone. Because once you [01:25:20] awaken to what's going on, there is so much you have to unpack that people who aren't in it aren't gonna get, and, and what you'll get as response, [01:25:30] helpful, loving responses is actually gonna be very damaging.

SHARMEN: And so like what? Being willing to embrace, like, oh, just stay and pray more. God [01:25:40] will step in and change his heart. And you know, things like that where God doesn't just wave magic wands. The, the healing, the change is [01:25:50] in the journey that you each have to choose. So things like that just, just endure more like your quiet, gentle heart is gonna [01:26:00] change him.

SHARMEN: And no, that's not how it works. But anyway, things like that. So realizing that you're gonna spend a lot of time feeling absolutely alone, but there are [01:26:10] people out there that. Can speak some hope and some truth into it. So find those people. Embrace feeling alone. Keep stepping into it. Don't deny [01:26:20] the reality.

SHARMEN: Don't deny what God is bringing to open your eyes, because that is part of the faith journey. We are not done growing and learning till [01:26:30] we're dead. We are not landed to, we're face-to-face with our creator. So open your eyes and be willing to step into it because there is new [01:26:40] life ahead. Should you choose that path.

KYLE: Yeah. And you can be free from the anger

SHARMEN: and Yeah,

KYLE: and have peace. The anger,

SHARMEN: the fear. Exactly. [01:26:50] Yeah.

KYLE: Awesome. If people wanna work with you live found.org, is that the website?

SHARMEN: Live found.org. Um, if you [01:27:00] are trying to do marriage recovery work, the Marriage Recovery Center is a great place to go as well. Um, but yeah, check them both out.

SHARMEN: Um, follow me [01:27:10] on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok Live found or your family.

KYLE: Yeah,

SHARMEN: live found for all of those.

KYLE: Okay.

SHARMEN: So awesome. Yeah.

KYLE: Awesome. Thank you so much for your time [01:27:20] today. I really enjoyed our chat and it's so encouraging you do the work that you do, and I could just share your story and, and, uh, there's, there's a, a, a joy and a lightness to your [01:27:30] accountance that I, that shows that this is, this is real for you and it's, it's awesome.

KYLE: So thank you very much.

SHARMEN: Well, thank you for inviting me. I've really enjoyed it. I love what you're doing as [01:27:40] well, so would love to stay connected as well in that regard. But thank you so much.

KYLE: Sounds good. Thanks for listening, guys. If you enjoyed this episode, um, tune in again next time. [01:27:50] Uh, thanks for listening.

KYLE: Cheers.

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Inside the Mind of a Private Investigator: Fraud, Affairs, and Politicians | Steffan Moens | EP 42

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Helping Women Heal From Being Married to Religious "Men" I The Testimony of Sharmen Kimbrough -EP 39

November 15, 2025

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Inside the Mind of a Private Investigator: Fraud, Affairs, and Politicians | Steffan Moens | EP 42

Is the Christian School Bubble Hurting Our Kids’ Faith? - Briefcase & The Barn - Ep 72

He Sold the Dairy Farm to Follow God – Mike’s Story of Surrender - EP 41

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Helping Women Heal From Being Married to Religious "Men" I The Testimony of Sharmen Kimbrough -EP 39

November 15, 2025

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Inside the Mind of a Private Investigator: Fraud, Affairs, and Politicians | Steffan Moens | EP 42

Is the Christian School Bubble Hurting Our Kids’ Faith? - Briefcase & The Barn - Ep 72

He Sold the Dairy Farm to Follow God – Mike’s Story of Surrender - EP 41

Stop Work From Controlling Your Life

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Resources

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Contact us

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