Bad Church Leaders & Incoming Persecution? - Mike Schouten - Briefcase & The Barn - Ep 66

October 22, 2025

Mike: [00:00:00] We had, uh, earlier this summer. So we had a billboard up in, in, no, yeah, we had a billboard up in Hamilton, got taken down. Uh, and then we got de banked [00:00:10] this summer from one of the banks that we bank with, like our Canada. Okay. Which bank? Canadian Western Bank. Okay. Yeah. So I did an interview with Ezra Lavan, uh, rebel [00:00:20] News.

Mike: And it was great. Good interview. Um, he kind of threw a curve ball towards the end, but I, I think I navigated it and I was like, okay. I think that went [00:00:30] well. And like an hour later they called me and they're like, you never guess what happened. Like the, the whole, the whole file was corrupted somehow. We we're not sure what happened, but, um, we gotta do it again.[00:00:40]

Mike: So we had to redo the whole interview. Wow. Like 15 minute conversation. Oh man. So the reason

Kyle: Mike's bringing that up is we were just recording for half an hour, but we [00:00:50] weren't actually recording. So welcome back to another episode of the Briefcase in the Barn, a series of the furious security show where we were talking about business, life, Christianity and more.

Kyle: Um, at least we're more relaxed [00:01:00] now. Gary, has

Mike: this ever happened to you?

Kyle: So we got Mike's, uh, friend Gary on. It's so weird repeating half this stuff now. Oh man, that I [00:01:10] actually had that same thing with, uh uh, Eric Trump. Okay. I, I, uh, I interviewed him. It was six o'clock in the morning and, uh, I couldn't get in my studio at the time.

Kyle: I didn't have a studio at the time, and so I recorded for [00:01:20] like half an hour with him, manas about abortion and gay rights and all these other things, and I had the first two minutes I lost the rest. Oh, man. So that was a, that was a bummer, but. Anyways. [00:01:30] Yeah. So, uh, we were, so if

Mike: you're watching this and you see Kyle keep looking at his little black boxes 'cause he's, he wants to make sure it's still recording.

Mike: That's why

Kyle: I've never had this. Oh [00:01:40] man. But yeah, we were saying that, um, um, and a couple episodes ago mm-hmm. That, uh, we were talking about you and about, [00:01:50] uh, what was that? Biking. Oh, you were into biking.

Kyle: Yeah.

Kyle: And, uh, that Gary, uh, was gonna get into biking as well. 'cause he is his Peloton at home and that you were, uh, telling him, no, [00:02:00] you probably shouldn't because, um, you're busy enough.

Kyle: Mm-hmm. And you should stay with your handling and the importance of having, um, guys in your life that we'll be able to call you out on, [00:02:10] on, on things like that.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And those conversations aren't always easy. Right. Gary's a, you know, he is, um. Not to overinflate [00:02:20] his ego at all, but he's an important, important guy.

Mike: And I was like, oh, how to have this conversation with him. And it had kind of like, it happened over the course of a couple months. Like I knew he had a Peloton. [00:02:30] I was like, oh, this is good. It's been good for him. But one of the benefits of having one of those things in your basement is that you can jump on it, whatever.

Mike: It works, right?

Kyle: He bought it from me. Oh, he did? Yeah.

Mike: Oh, you gave

Kyle: [00:02:40] up on it? No, I just needed, I needed like a year and a half ago I needed some cash. I'm like, Hey Gary.

Mike: Okay, well it sounds like he's putting a lot of miles on it. Good. Yeah. So, um, [00:02:50] anyway, he started talking about maybe getting into cycling and I cycle with my son Micah, who Gary is also very closely acquainted with.

Mike: So, um, at first I was like, oh, that'd [00:03:00] be fun. And then, you know, thinking about it. Ran it, you know, past my wife and stuff. And she's like, oh, I don't know if that's a great thing for Gary. 'cause they got, they got a busy house, right? [00:03:10] And Marie needs help with the kids and so on. So that was kind of eating at my conscience a little bit and I'm like, oh yeah, I was in this position once, like 15, 20 years [00:03:20] ago and we had a young family and I was busy, like, not with cycling then, but lots of other things and, and it kind of never really dawned on me at the time.

Mike: But then [00:03:30] later in life I was like. I was too busy. Like the, you know, by the grace of God, everything went fine, but would've been good actually, if somebody that I, that I respected would've come up to me and [00:03:40] said, Hey, have you ever thought of like dropping this or not getting involved in this and just staying at home a bit more.

Mike: Yeah. So that was good. We had a good conversation. Um, Gary's pretty [00:03:50] receptive to it, but, but yeah, it's, um, it's not easy. Like it requires some, uh, humility and courage to go up to people. Have those [00:04:00] conversations, but that's the beauty of having mentors in your life. That's the beauty of having close friends.

Kyle: Yeah. If you, if so, how? 20 years ago, you're in your twenties, let's say there's someone listening in [00:04:10] their twenties. 20 years ago I was a. Almost in my thirties, but Okay. Yeah. Still in your twenties. Yeah. Uh, how, how do you go about finding a mentor? Like, [00:04:20] 'cause it, it's, it's, you wished you would've had someone speak into your life, but it's also, I think there's a responsibility for, to seek a mentor out too, right?

Kyle: Yeah. Like, um, which [00:04:30] is not comfortable, but if you want growth, if you want to be a, a good dad, husband. Christian, whatever.

Mike: Mm-hmm. Father? Yeah. [00:04:40] Well, you know, when, when I think back to that time, it, I don't think I like consciously thought, oh, I need to find a mentor. Um, but we had just recently relocated from, actually from [00:04:50] Lac all the way to Surrey.

Mike: So joined a new church there and just, it was a smaller church and it was a good group of couples actually, um, that we got [00:05:00] acquainted with pretty quickly. I had one, um, like fa a family there that was relatives of mine. So I had some cousins there and just kind of fell into that group and they [00:05:10] were just great.

Mike: It was a, just a great group of guys that, you know, we did a lot of politicking together. Uh, partisan politics. A lot of election campaigning. We [00:05:20] started the very first, like ARPA Canada, uh, like a chapter, not the very first, but the first one in that area, a chapter. So we would get involved in some municipal politics [00:05:30] and yeah, it was just a lot of busyness.

Mike: We did bible study together. We'd often go to the, to the local pub for a drink after Bible study and kind of continue the Bible study there. Yeah, [00:05:40] so I think what the best, the best thing we can do to find a good mentor is just be. Vulnerable, be open with people [00:05:50] and then the ones that are receptive of that and are open with you, they're like, okay, we're, we're close now.

Mike: Like we've shared intimate things with each other. Uh, we trust each [00:06:00] other. We know that we're not gonna just spread this information.

Kyle: Have you ever had it where, where you were close to someone and they did break trust by sharing something that wasn't, you didn't [00:06:10] want shared or something else like that, and being burned in a way?

Kyle: Yeah, because that's, I mean, you're really dealing with humans. Yeah. Right.

Mike: Yeah. Um, no, nothing. I mean, it's [00:06:20] probably happened, but it might've been on such a minor scale that it didn't really matter.

Kyle: Yeah.

Mike: Um, no, not really. Hm. Um. I don't have any recollections of that. Fair, fair

Kyle: enough. Yeah. So [00:06:30] I, I just realized that I didn't actually properly introduce you since we, I thought it was recording earlier and since we started recording again.

Kyle: So, uh, Mike here, Mike Shuan from ARPA Canada, um, which I, [00:06:40] again forgot the acronym title even though you explained it

Mike: five minutes ago. Yeah. So it stands for the Association for Reformed Political Action Canada.

Kyle: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So you [00:06:50] were on an earlier episode of the Fear Security Show, and I'll put that, uh.

Kyle: The episode link of that description to that, if you wanna listen to that. But you said you had some good feedback to that episode.

Mike: Yeah, yeah. [00:07:00] That's, uh, that was, I don't know, about three, four months ago. Maybe. Maybe even longer. I remember, I think it was a year ago. A year ago already. Wow. Yeah. Okay. I remember it was one of the first maybe, or maybe spring, [00:07:10] it was one of the first episodes that you had redone this studio.

Kyle: Oh, okay. Okay. So then, then it was probably like a half a year ago,

Mike: so, okay. Yeah, that's right. We talked about, um, [00:07:20] how I got involved with ARPA Canada. We talked about our family a bit like losing a son, Marcus to cancer. Um, I think we talked [00:07:30] about some of the social ills in society and what we can do as Christians to combat them, things like that.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I remember the hour and a half passed very quickly. Yeah,

Kyle: I think that that was before the [00:07:40] election. I'm pretty sure. Um, most likely. Yeah. Yeah. And so since the election has now happened and the liberals are back in Yeah. Where, where do you see things in Canada right now [00:07:50] and just culture as a whole when it comes to, especially the issues that you're focused on with Arba?

Mike: Yeah, so that is a bunch of questions there for sure that you just asked, but where, where [00:08:00] I see the culture and politics, I think that. The politics that we have, the p politicians that have been elected, uh, especially in the last federal election, [00:08:10] they're just a reflection of, of culture. So it's not necessarily a surprise that we have a liberal government.

Mike: Again, mark Carney's, our prime minister. I think that [00:08:20] overall, um. He's taken a much more moderate approach than Justin Trudeau. He doesn't seem like a activist Prime Minister. Um, he's very open to, you know, how do [00:08:30] we, how do we build Canada again? How do we approve some of these energy projects that have been talked about?

Mike: So when you see premiers like Danielle Smith, um, [00:08:40] complimenting pri, liberal Prime Minister, you know, like, oh, something's different here now. So that, so that's been encouraging that way on social issues. Uh, we don't expect a whole [00:08:50] lot different from the liberals. We're not sure yet where they actually are when it comes to euthanasia.

Mike: So euthanasia is an issue that's being talked about for the last 10 [00:09:00] years and legislated on, and the courts have made decisions on and we're, um, we're set to open it up again, uh, to widen the, the [00:09:10] framework, uh, for eligibility to people with mental illness as a sole underlying condition. So that's pretty scary because I mean, as you, and I'm [00:09:20] sure your viewers know, mental illness is something that goes up and down quite regularly and some days, uh, people, uh, are suicidal and [00:09:30] some days people are having a great day.

Mike: Yeah. And to allow people with mental illness to request the state to end their life. Um. Yeah, that's a scary [00:09:40] proposition for sure.

Kyle: And it's high now, already now, right? One in 20 Canadians die by euthanasia.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. The numbers continue to grow. Um, their most recent year, uh, [00:09:50] is 2023, uh, that we have the numbers for, and it was over 15,000 that year.

Mike: Since it's been legalized, uh, well over 60,000 people have requested and received [00:10:00] euthanasia, 60,000. So it grows, um, incredible exponentially every single year. So, yeah, we don't know where the liberals are yet. Um, there's a private member's bill actually in [00:10:10] parliament right now that we're, we're really trying to build support for.

Kyle: Hmm.

Mike: It's, uh, put forward by an mp, Tamara Jansen. She's, um, she's Christian MP from Cloverdale. Yeah. [00:10:20] And this bill would actually repeal the sections of the criminal code that are set to kick in, in March, 2027, which will allow euthanasia for people with mental illness. Okay. [00:10:30] Yeah. In the podcast. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: It's not allowed yet, but as of March 20. It will be. Okay. So her private members bill amends the criminal code to actually take [00:10:40] that, that out so that it won't anymore. Okay. So we're trying to build support for that. A similar bill was put forward by Ed Fast in the last Parliament. Okay. And it, it didn't [00:10:50] quite receive enough support, but it did receive support from the entire NDP caucus.

Mike: Okay. Uh, eight liberal mps at the time, the entire conservative caucus. So,

Kyle: so right now, if you had. [00:11:00] Conservatives, NDPs and eight liberals had passed?

Mike: No, not 'cause the numbers have changed since the past, since the election. Okay. So the bill that Ed Fasts had put forward was prior to [00:11:10] the election. So now that the election's been held, there's a lot less NDP in, in the House of Commons Oh.

Mike: Course than there were last time course.

Kyle: Yeah,

Mike: yeah, yeah.

Kyle: More liberals. Yeah. And more [00:11:20] conservatives though too.

Mike: When we look at the numbers, there's, we need all the, all the conservatives to vote in favor of it all. The NDP. And about 2021 liberals. Okay. So more liberals this time. We need more [00:11:30] liberals this time.

Mike: Yeah. So that's, uh, if people are wanna learn more about that, just simply go to, to our canada.ca or we have a specific website as well for this called [00:11:40] Care not kill.ca. Okay.

Kyle: Yeah. It's wild in so many ways that we're in a culture that does this. It's just like, you know, sometimes growing up I had this idea of Canada, I as like, [00:11:50] we're Canada's a good country.

Kyle: It's like good, good, good moral country. Mm-hmm. But when you actually like think about it, it's like, no. It's like way closer to like Sodom and Gamora. Oh yeah. Then [00:12:00] we, yeah. Like care to admit, right. It's just pure wickedness when you see what's allowed. Yeah.

Mike: Um. And we like, especially on this topic, we [00:12:10] regularly get called out by the international community.

Mike: So whether it's the un, whether it's other countries, other jurisdictions around the world, they look at what Canada's doing when it comes to euthanasia, [00:12:20] assisted suicide. Like, don't do what Canada's doing. Like that is gone so wrong. Yeah, there. Interesting. How you never read that in the mainstream media?

Mike: No. No. [00:12:30] Maybe the national Post, but that's about it. Maybe

Kyle: Gary says they're conservative. I call bullshit.

Mike: Hey, it's the one, it's the one print paper that I subscribed to. Okay. Get the [00:12:40] national post every morning, so,

Kyle: okay.

Mike: Um,

Kyle: print paper.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I still like having a print paper and Jennifer likes it too.

Mike: Like, it's just nice to have something hanging around. Physical. Yeah. I do like that part too. [00:12:50] Kids can pick up. We can pick up and read. Yeah.

Kyle: There's a really good podcast called The World and Everything in It, which is a Christian news organization in the States. Okay. Um, and they also have a world magazine.

Kyle: [00:13:00] Oh yeah. And it's really Marvin Ky. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He's a gem. Oh yeah. He stepped down now as their editor. Yeah. He got someone else in place. But yeah, that is, it's such a good, such a good, um. Um, Christian [00:13:10] News Organization. Yeah, I really wish that Canada had that. 'cause Rebel has, like, I'd say Rebel is probably adjacent to maybe Fox News, maybe a little bit more conservative than Fox News in the us.

Kyle: Mm-hmm. But it's not Christian at all? [00:13:20] No. And uh, and like the Daily Wire as well, like it's somewhat conservative but it's not Christian and Yeah. Maybe furious to Curious Media.

Mike: Yeah, there you go. [00:13:30] You always gotta have a, you always have what they, what do they call it? A big hair audacious goal. Yeah. Well I got lot.

Mike: I got lots of those, so. Okay. Um,

Kyle: uh, Gary said there's a few thing [00:13:40] topics, uh, that we should cover. Uh, Terry Fox. Um. Church leadership. Okay. There's some other things. What, what's the Terry Fox thing? You, you've biked with Terry Fox?

Mike: Well, [00:13:50] Terry Fox passed away in 1981. Yeah. Um, so he's long gone. He, he passed away before?

Mike: Well, I was, I think before you were born. I betcha, yeah. Before I was born. Yeah. I [00:14:00] think I was five when he passed away. Oh, okay. So, so, yeah. He was a young man who had cancer. Right. Everybody knows live in Chilla here. Right. No, uh, port Moody. Okay. His brother lives in Chill Lock. Then [00:14:10] his brother lives in Chill Lock currently.

Mike: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So when our son was going through his cancer journey, I picked up a, a biography of Terry Fox written by a Toronto [00:14:20] Star journalist back in, in the eighties. And it was like, wow, this is like, it so sounds so similar to, to Marcus's story. So read that [00:14:30] and then reached out on social media to his brother Darryl Fox.

Mike: And we, we started cycling together here in Chillax, uh, part. Oh, that's the guy that,

Kyle: okay.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:40] So we cycle, well not every week, but when, when we're around, we cycle together with a group of other people. Cool. Uh, lots of fun. The cycling community is actually great. Mm-hmm. Like's actually amazing [00:14:50] how many Christians are in the cycling community.

Mike: Okay. In fact, well, we have time. Just a quick little tangent. One of the first times I went on a ride with a few of these guys, [00:15:00] um, so Marcus was in the hospital. I managed to get out on a ride with them and came back and we're just getting to know each other and I shared a little bit about my story and these three guys, like [00:15:10] right in, in Garrison, in front of the, the Waves coffee shop or whatever, like, we need to pray for you.

Mike: Uh, and they prayed over me and it was just really moving. Um, anyway, [00:15:20]

Kyle: so it's, would you have grown up in a community where spontaneous prayer like that was pretty normal, where like someone was hurting and you were like, oh, let's pray for you right now? Or is that something, was it more

Mike: formal? [00:15:30] No. Yeah, prayer when I grew up was more formal, like the traditional, you pray at meal times and before you go to bed kind of thing.

Mike: But um, especially since doing this work [00:15:40] and we associate with lots of different Christians from, they have different experiences of worship and family worship, it's become more normal for sure that, [00:15:50] um, you know, we don't have to keep prayer to these set times. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, yeah, that, that part, it wasn't, it wasn't odd that they prayed, that [00:16:00] people prayed in the middle of the day, but just that these guys who had never met, um, felt called to pray and I was like, oh, this is, these are really good guys.

Mike: Like, it's

Kyle: good.

Mike: Yeah. So anyway, [00:16:10] uh, yeah, I've been cycling with Darryl for, for a while, and then the last number of years he, every year he has a, they call it the Terry Fox Ride of Hope. So that happens [00:16:20] usually on a Saturday in July, uh, 30 to 35 cyclists. Bike 360 kilometers in one day, just all through the lower mainland.

Mike: We zigzag all [00:16:30] over the place and takes about 12 hours. Um, and we do it to raise money for the Terry Fox Foundation for Cancer Research. So I and I, I've really come to appreciate the Terry Fox Foundation just [00:16:40] because the, all of the money that they raise goes directly to, to, like cancer research. They don't spend a lot of money per dollar on marketing and advertising.[00:16:50]

Mike: Very successful. The Terry Fox runs that every Canadian, every Canadian kid's been part of for, for decades now. Right. In fact, they've, they've, they've, they've passed, surpassed the [00:17:00] billion dollar mark in Oh wow. Since Terry Fox did his marathon of hope. Anyway, the, uh, 45th anniversary was this year of the Marathon of Hope.

Mike: So [00:17:10] Darrell had this big idea to, to take a group of cyclists right across the country, so already last May, so this would be May, 2024. He asked me [00:17:20] if I wanted to be part of that group, but he was looking for 10 to 12 riders. Man, I was like, just giddy with excitement. Okay. But then reality kind of hit in and I was [00:17:30] like, oh, I just have a new position with ARPA Canada.

Mike: Uh, obviously got responsibilities at home. It was gonna be like 35 days you're on the road, um, and you're away from all of [00:17:40] that. Right. So I dis I couldn't see a way forward. We had two graduations, um, throughout that time. Yeah. And then the other component was that it would be, we'd be riding over Sunday.[00:17:50]

Mike: And, uh, I'm not opposed to, you know, missing church once in a while, but it just felt wrong to, to go for like over a month without going to church. Yeah.

Kyle: Yeah.

Mike: So I was really [00:18:00] wrestling with that. Anyway, I'd come to the conclusion that, you know what, I, I, I actually can't do this. I can't, um, expect this of myself at this stage in life.

Mike: So, [00:18:10] told Darryl that, and, uh, whatever. That was fine. We kept cycling and then earlier this year they put a call out for one day riders like you could join the ride for one day. Um, and [00:18:20] so they would pick up riders throughout the country just for a day. So I applied for that and kind of. As a last sort of ditch effort, I said, Hey, what about like, there be a compromise?

Mike: Like maybe I could [00:18:30] go for like eight days or something. So anyway, they, they jumped at it and they're like, sure. So it was just the, perhaps one of the, well, it was the most [00:18:40] fantastic, uh, experience. Like I've had like that in my whole life. Okay. To be part of something like that, we started

Kyle: what's so like, I just think you're biking all day and then you sleep and you [00:18:50] bike all day.

Kyle: Like what's, just describe it was like we

Mike: were for sure. Okay. But to be part of what's fantastic about it. So, oh man, Kyle, so many aspects. So the, one of the [00:19:00] things, so we, there's 15 people in total. There was so. Eight riders. I was the ninth rider. They called me, MTR, Mike, to Regina. 'cause I was going from Vancouver to [00:19:10] Regina.

Mike: So I was the ninth, kind of the odd personnel, but felt very welcomed and included. It was so, so awesome. But anyway, nine riders, six support staff drop into Vancouver [00:19:20] like on a Saturday. Have orientation, get this all figured out. Most of us have not met each other in the past and then have to embark on this like really hard thing where you're [00:19:30] together for 24 hours a day.

Mike: So everyone can imagine like this has the potential to go sideways really fast, right? But for everybody to kind of like, like get things straightened out with, took two or [00:19:40] three days, but get that all straightened out and like focus on what we have in common. We wanna raise money for cancer research here and not on what set us apart was, um, just.

Mike: It was pretty powerful [00:19:50] to see that happen so quickly. And then for me personally, obviously the, like to do this, um, in memory of our son Marcus. Um, [00:20:00] yeah, it was just huge emotional at times, at different, you know, at different times throughout those. I was with them for 10 days with the, the, the whole crew for 10 days.

Mike: Yeah. And [00:20:10] then, um, for me personally, like that was the first time since. I started working for ARPA that I had actually been with. Um, they weren't all [00:20:20] non-believers. Some were agnostic. Um, some had different, different aspects of Christianity or no faith at all, but to be with those kind of people that for that amount of time, [00:20:30] uh, was.

Mike: Like refreshing almost. Yeah. Yeah. Like you just have totally different kind of conversations. Yeah. And we were biking side by side, so, and then we'd switch, right? So it was really fascinating [00:20:40] 'cause you, you're biking together for eight to 10 hours a day and then you'd, you'd switch, so you'd be talking to somebody and then it'd be like, somebody would call up front like, let's rotate.

Mike: So we'd rotate [00:20:50] and then. You'd be talking to the next person. You'd be like, Kate, see you. See you in an hour when you're back again in this position. We'll continue our conversation. Like that kind of thing. Just getting to know each other. [00:21:00] What makes you tick? Um, are you doing this for somebody, you know?

Mike: Yeah. Somebody that passed away close by and these kinds of things. Something about time

Kyle: together, it makes a big difference. It's something I actually [00:21:10] advocate for when I coach different business leaders is to take, um. Time to, like with your executives, especially executive team, to go for lunch. Mm-hmm.

Kyle: And outside of like [00:21:20] just a meeting where you discuss the topic and leave the meeting room again. But that time in between like waiting for the waiter, you know, waiting for your food and stuff like that. 'cause then na, more natural conversations totally come up that [00:21:30] otherwise wouldn't come up. And I definitely noticed that a lot when I used to, uh, I used to travel, travel the whole world for.

Kyle: Five plus years. Yeah. And uh, and so you're spending a lot of time in a car or in [00:21:40] a plane beside whoever you're traveling with. Yeah. And you don't necessarily have an agenda to talk about. And so things come up that you wouldn't otherwise totally never able talk about. Or you can bring up [00:21:50] topics and they can't escape.

Kyle: Yeah. You know, and you can actually talk things with Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. So the, that aspect I think was really. It was [00:22:00] life changing, I feel, in a way. 'cause it really, that's a big statement. Yeah. Like, it really showed me that, um, I actually lead better from within, [00:22:10] so not from the front. And my role right now is very much, um, like I'm, I'm a leader within Upper Canada, but um, don't really work [00:22:20] with much of the staff of ARPA Canada.

Mike: They cannot with them. But being with those people, I wasn't like the captain of the team, I wasn't in charge of anything, but was able to [00:22:30] be a leader, like encourage coach, uh, be humorous, um, just model good work ethic, like, work hard at this, this is hard work. Like I'm gonna show we can work [00:22:40] hard, that kind of thing.

Mike: Um, it was just, I'm like, oh, this feels so much more natural to me. Um, so yeah, it was, uh, it was [00:22:50] pretty powerful in that way.

Kyle: And, um, so does it make you want to shift something in how you're leading, moving forward into the different organi, different things you're doing? Yeah, well this is a [00:23:00] podcast.

Mike: I dunno how personal we want.

Mike: It's up to you, but it's, yeah. I'm not forcing you to

Kyle: say anything. So,

Mike: no, I would say that it, um, since then I [00:23:10] definitely have been praying not for a change. But, you know, Lord, if, if, if you want me to serve in a different way, if there's different things that I can do, um, I'm definitely open [00:23:20] to that. Mm-hmm.

Mike: I. I miss being able to just be with the people I work with. Um, yeah.

Kyle: What does that look like? Um, just to [00:23:30] shift a little bit to, you know, talking about church leadership. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, Jesus gave the example when he watched the disciple's feet. He goes, yeah, I am your leader, or [00:23:40] exact terminology he uses.

Kyle: Um, but do as I do mm-hmm. Uh, in like, you know, no job is. Too small. Yeah. And, and stuff like that. And, and, and being [00:23:50] humble, which kind of seems to be a little bit in the same line of what you're saying, like lead from within. You don't need to necessarily Yeah. Necessarily be the top. But like in church leadership, what do you think

Mike: that looks like?

Mike: Yeah, [00:24:00] so I think what Jesus was showing there was, was humility, but also servant leadership. Right. I think of the same, remember he had that exchange with. There was [00:24:10] James and John who were asking him like, can I sit at your right hand? And the other one sit at the left. And then the other disciples heard that they had been talking about this and they got rebuked and um, and [00:24:20] then Jesus was, you know, showed them that servant leadership.

Mike: And I'm like, okay, that's, yeah. I think that that's what we need to be doing and it's something [00:24:30] that's, that we've lost, I think with the whole like virtual world and everybody can connect with everybody all over the place. And there's tons of efficiencies, don't get me wrong, that come with that. And there's [00:24:40] a lot more that we can do a lot more that we're even responsible for because we can do it.

Mike: But there's nothing replaces the face-to-face interaction, the just being with each [00:24:50] other. Like one of the most powerful lessons I ever had in my life was. I, so this is going back to 1999. I was [00:25:00] applying for a job at a greenhouse. It was a pretty large outfit, um, like 40 acres of glass, like huge multimillion dollar company.

Mike: And the person who had got me the [00:25:10] interview, he, he said to me, he's like, oh, meet me at the front gate, um, at this and this time. So I met him there. And he came. He, he, I'll never forget it, this is the [00:25:20] before I started cycling, he came up on a bike like this old, like just pedal bike, and then he had another one.

Mike: He was holding another one that had no rider on. He's like, here, here's a bike. Jump on it. I was like, oh wow. I haven't [00:25:30] ridden a bike for years, but of course it's something you never forget. Got on the bike. I thought he was taking me to like the person I had to have the interview with who would be in like a corner office.

Mike: He was like the important [00:25:40] person. He drove me with that bike all the way through the greenhouse, out to some back area. And he's like, here's the boss. This is the guy you gotta talk to. And what was the boss doing? He [00:25:50] was hoofing plants faster than anybody else. Hmm. And this is the guy that owned the, the whole place.

Mike: Right. So that, that to me was like a huge life lesson. Like, it doesn't [00:26:00] matter what your status is, how much money you have. Like you, the way you lead well is to just be with your workers and work harder than them. Show them Yeah. What it is to, to work hard and what you're [00:26:10] doing. Yeah. And yeah, he did that for every day that I worked with him.

Mike: I was there for 12 years. And he was always the one who wanted to be there first, and he was [00:26:20] working hard and, and he did it to the glory of God. Like, yeah, that's why he did it. And you really get to know someone when you're with them like that. Yeah.

Kyle: Yeah.

Mike: Uh, so yeah, that was [00:26:30] similar to the experience I had on the Terry Fox ride where like, Darrell, like a guy like Dar.

Mike: I mean, he's been working for 40 years, 40 plus years at [00:26:40] advancing this mission of his brother Terry. Like we need to raise money and find cures for cancer and find different treatments for cancer. And, um. He's out there every day [00:26:50] on his bike trying to, you know, lead and show everybody that we can do this, we can do this.

Mike: And man, they, like, I biked to Regina. That's only one quarter of the way across our country, [00:27:00] like the eight. The rest of them, they biked all the way to Newfoundland. Crazy. Over 7,000 kilometers. Yeah.

Kyle: Leading by example obviously is really big. Yeah. What, what happens and have you ever, [00:27:10] have you seen it in, in your lifetime of, of church leaders?

Kyle: Teaching or saying you should be doing a certain thing but not doing it themselves and, [00:27:20] and what that does and impact of that.

Mike: Yeah, I think that that's one of the, the bigger problems that the church faces is, especially when it comes to [00:27:30] retention of youth, right? Youth, youth can spot hypocrisy like so fast.

Mike: Um, so that's definitely, I think, a. One of the threats, if you [00:27:40] will, like, if you do a SWOT analysis on a church, like that's one of the threats that people who are, whether they're in like official church leadership, like have an actual office within the church [00:27:50] or they're just, um, senior members who, you know, have status in, in the right way.

Mike: Like they, they're long time members and people look up to them. Yeah, if they're [00:28:00] not leading well and their example does their daily walk with, with the Lord doesn't match, you know, what they might say in church or at a church meeting, then people see [00:28:10] that really quickly and unfortunately. The default often is to not deal with it, but to just leave and go find another church.

Mike: Uh, [00:28:20] which they'll probably see the same problems at. It may be manifested in a different way, but, but they're gonna be there too. So I think that church leaders have to be very careful that, not that, [00:28:30] you know, it's not expected. They live a perfect life, but there has to be consistency for sure. Right.

Kyle: I think especially also openness or vulnerability of their failures that they [00:28:40] do have.

Kyle: Mm-hmm. 'cause if you only see perfection from your leaders. That's also not reality. Yeah. And something you can't ever attain to. Yeah. And uh, I often think that [00:28:50] most Christians, if they would've been part of writing the Bible, they would leave out that, you know, Noah got butt drunk naked. Mm-hmm. You know, or, or Da Davidson's or [00:29:00] Paul Apostle Paul, or.

Kyle: You know, king, um, what's his, Peter went back to workspace, salvation, you know, way after Jesus had died and after he had, um, been, uh, made right [00:29:10] of, of, uh, denying him. Yeah. Um, and, uh, because I think if we forget that part, then Totally. You know, we're, we're gonna give the impression that if you wanna be a Christian, you have better have [00:29:20] it all together and sin grows in the darkness.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a challenging topic for me. Like, I haven't been in church leadership for [00:29:30] almost five years now. And I think the, the entire COVID experience really, um, put a magnifying glass on, on this topic that we're talking about. [00:29:40] Like how, how to lead well and, and be able to, or willing to live by, by what you said.

Mike: Yeah. Right. And [00:29:50] yeah, during that time there was, there were a lot of church leaders who were unwilling to, they were unwilling to, um. [00:30:00] Oppose what the government said in a way. Um, and I noticed you guys had a podcast recently where you talked about, I think respecting authority or obeying authority. I don't know if that was with government [00:30:10] authority or it was just authority.

Mike: Can't remember. Okay. Anyway, the whole, a aspect of civil disobedience was a huge part of those conversations, right? Yeah. Because [00:30:20] churches, many of them felt that, that, no, they had to keep worshiping, like who is the state, the government to close a church down. So there was, there was [00:30:30] an unwillingness to, to have the courage to.

Mike: To remain open and continue calling God's people to worship, even if it was in a, in a smaller number and [00:30:40] spaced out and doing your best to acknowledge the very real threat of COVID. Um, I know people personally who've died of COVID. It's not some fictional thing, like it [00:30:50] was a real thing. Yeah. But then, so, so there would be decisions like that, like, no, we're not gonna disobey the government or stay in closed, et cetera.

Mike: And then there would be [00:31:00] these other conversations about, well, we'll just get together in that barn over there, or we'll just have a shop over here. Or, um, so like a willingness to kind of, to, to do that, but do it in a [00:31:10] sneaky way and not have the courage to just call the church to worship. Um, just, you know, so that was, I don't know.

Mike: Uh, for me it was, it was sad. It was [00:31:20] frustrating Sometimes it was infuriating. Yeah. Um, but it really, uh.

Kyle: I don't know. You obviously can't see into the future, but do you see more of it coming? Like if [00:31:30] I look at Canada as a whole, you know, some of the laws that are just passed or considering being passed and I, and, and assuming we're gonna follow the UK when it comes to like free speech [00:31:40] and things like that mm-hmm.

Kyle: When there's people being put in jail for Yeah. You know, just posting online that are against, you know, homosexual marriage or whatever, things like that. Mm-hmm. Um, that a lot of this is [00:31:50] gonna just start ramping up more and

Mike: more. I think so. I think so. I, so I would say maybe a two part answer. One is, will something else come [00:32:00] along that will threaten church unity as much as COVID did?

Mike: I think absolutely. That there will, um, what exactly that is, maybe it has to do with free speech. Maybe it has to do [00:32:10] with our, like a Christian or a biblical understanding of, of marriage and sexuality. Uh, where, you know, by texts like Genesis 1 27 are now prohibited from preaching [00:32:20] on and things like that could be that, um.

Mike: It could be something else. It could be that, you know, the state comes along and threatens any parents that are homeschooling [00:32:30] and that impacts the church in a, maybe a more tangential way or something. There's definitely going to be more, um, challenges that the church faces, either from the [00:32:40] state or or other, I think, or I should say, I, I lament in a way that I don't think through the whole COVID experience.[00:32:50]

Mike: We've done enough. Not that we haven't learned anything, I don't think we've done enough to analyze how that went and what we can learn from it in order to [00:33:00] benefit us in the future. And, you know, I read, I read a book during COVID, um, by Alistair Begg called Brave by Faith. And he, he [00:33:10] talks about a lot of good things.

Mike: He, he kind of walks you through the first few chapters of Daniel and, um. The, the courage that needs to be exemplified in the face of [00:33:20] crisis like that has to come from our leaders, our, our church leaders. And it's not something that can be learned in the moment of crisis.

Kyle: Hmm.

Mike: Like, you have to be [00:33:30] rooted well in God's word and in those principles so that when a crisis comes, you have the right amount of conviction.

Mike: You're ready, ready to make decisions right away. [00:33:40] Um, that's what, that's what beg really talks about and encourages, especially church leaders to, to know where you stand, to know where you're rooted in, and [00:33:50] to have the confidence and conviction to make the right decisions. Yeah. Even if they're as hard as, as what Daniel did Yeah.

Mike: Going to his room to pray, like even if they're that hard, knowing that you're gonna be [00:34:00] chalked in the lions den.

Kyle: Yeah.

Mike: Right. So I think that, um, yeah, that's, yeah. Like I said, I, I lament that. I don't think the church has learned [00:34:10] enough. Not, again, not to say they haven't learned anything. Yeah. But learned enough to know what to do when the next crisis comes.

Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of a quote we've talked about earlier, which is, um, from, [00:34:20] uh, Robert Murray McChain, who died even before he was 30. The greatest gift a pastor can gift to his church as his own personal holy life. Mm-hmm. Which I think is ultimately in, in [00:34:30] believing deeply. In Christ. Mm-hmm.

Kyle: And, and what he says and that those things sink in deep. And our beliefs always drive our behaviors. And so if we're not. [00:34:40] Uh, rooted deeply there. Mm-hmm. And spending time there. Then yeah. When crisis comes, we are gonna be like, you know, uh, a rock, a house built on sand.

Kyle: Yeah.

Kyle: You [00:34:50] know, it's like, it's the Sermon on the mount.

Kyle: Yeah. Um, and, and, um, yeah. I, I see a lot of it. And it's easy to get away with it when there's no pressure. Yeah. Uh, pressure comes and it, you [00:35:00] know, it, it shows up, shows up quickly.

Kyle: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. And then I think these, these things are, are life lessons in themself for all of life. Like us as, as husbands, as [00:35:10] fathers, we're going to face crisis.

Mike: Uh, maybe through your work or your vocation, there's gonna be crisis. And if you're not well rooted, you're not gonna stand very, very firmly through [00:35:20] those crisis. How do you become well rooted by being in God's word? Hmm. There's there's no other way. Like you need to be in God's. And when you're in God's word, not only [00:35:30] does your, um, level of, of knowledge comfort, assurance of salvation, um, faiths your, the strengthening of your faith.

Mike: Not [00:35:40] only do all those things happen, but it prevents actually Satan from taking root. Because you're, you're filled with God's word. Yeah. Right. And, and that can't be just worship on [00:35:50] Sundays. No. Like we need to have vibrant, you know, personal devotion lies, and there, all of us have room for improvement there.

Mike: But if the only time you're opening your Bible is like to read a quick [00:36:00] couple verses before dinner to, to get that done with and listening to the pastor on Sunday morning, like, that's not enough. Like we need to expect more from ourselves. Gonna be

Kyle: blown over fast.

Mike: Yeah. Like, [00:36:10] and, and that's. That's the only way, um, is to be in the word and meditate on it, pray over it.

Mike: Um, share what you're [00:36:20] learning with others, like all of that, it has to be part of your life.

Kyle: One of the phrases I learned through secular coaching is what you focus on grows. Yeah. Um, when we think about whatever that is. [00:36:30] And so you think about, you know, uh, reading the Bible 10 minutes a day, 60 hours a year.

Kyle: Right. You do the math, it seems like a lot. Uh, but then you look at like, your screen time on your [00:36:40] phone or other things you might be consuming Yeah. Per, per day. Yeah. And you know, you're not gonna be able to stand very much or what's gonna, you know, affect you or permeate you the [00:36:50] most. It's Yeah. Gonna be what you, what you're focused on.

Kyle: So,

Mike: yeah. I sometimes have that when I look at my, uh, so cyclists have an app called Strava, so that tracks all your rides and [00:37:00] stuff. Yeah. I'm like, oh wow. I've been on my bike a lot of hours. Um, that's a lot of us. Do you listen to stuff when you're brought right, too? Or not? No. Okay. No. No, I've always resisted that for a number of [00:37:10] reasons.

Mike: One is I get really annoyed when you're, especially when you're biking on gravel trails and then you ding your bell, you know, you're, you're very polite to people and they don't hear a thing. And then when you ride by them, they're [00:37:20] like, they, they jump right? And you're like, but they got their earbuds in and they can't even hear you coming.

Mike: So that annoys me. But I also think like God gave us five senses. [00:37:30] And we can use them at different times. I'm not going to, when I'm out in God's creation, cycling and enjoying God's creation, I don't want to have to listen to something else. Plus I'm [00:37:40] listening and reading and seeing my screen all day.

Mike: It's just nice to, yeah. Have a break. Yeah. You bike daily or is it weekly or, uh, no, I probably three to four times a week. [00:37:50] Um, yeah. Actually just this, this is the first year I bought a smart trainer, so you can take your road bike. And actually put it on a, a trainer and then hook it up to an [00:38:00] app with a screen and ride with other people and do route all over the world.

Mike: And my goal, I I, while you

Kyle: physically ride outside or while you're stationary? No, it's just stationary. It's just stationary. So it's like a little [00:38:10] peloton basically.

Mike: Yeah. Your own Peloton almost. You just take your rear tire off and then pop it onto this trainer. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so I've never done that before and, but I always [00:38:20] start like May well.

Mike: End of February, March, you start cycling outside. But then it takes me like two months to get back in shape and ready to go. So I said to, to Darrel, Darrel, [00:38:30] Fox. I said, my goal is that next March I'm able to keep up with you just like I am right now. So, fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle: Okay guys, thanks for listening.

Kyle: Um, appreciate being here. Yeah, [00:38:40]

Mike: no, it's been fun. Hopefully, uh, I did okay filling in for Gary. Uh, like I said, big shoes to fill, but, uh. Also honored that you asked me to, to come on and yeah, join the [00:38:50] briefcase of the barn.

Kyle: Appreciate it. If you guys have any questions, feel free to always send those in. Um, love hearing from you and, uh, we'll talk about that on a couple of feature episodes.

Kyle: So next time [00:39:00]

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