Learning From - and Debating — a Non-Profit Leader on Charity & Living Out Christian Values

January 10, 2026

Madeleine: [00:00:00] Left.

Madeleine: Boy, it's been a while since I've done this. You've done

Madeleine: a bunch before?

Madeleine: Um, yeah. I used to [00:00:10] host a Bahai show back in Oakville ages ago, years and years ago. A what show? Baja

Madeleine: Bahai.

Madeleine: What's that? Yeah, so Bahai is a faith.

Kyle: Oh, [00:00:20] okay.

Madeleine: And uh, for years I was, um, part of a Bajai community.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: And they used to do, uh,

Kyle: so it was like a TV show or a podcast or, yeah,

Madeleine: [00:00:30] no, a tv.

Kyle: Okay.

Madeleine: And

Madeleine: how many, how long do you do that for?

Madeleine: Uh, just a year.

Madeleine: Movie starts [00:00:40] recording with movie button still. Where The movie button.

Madeleine: I just added this second angle here, so I'm trying to figure, here [00:00:50]

Madeleine: we go. No worries.

Kyle: That's

Madeleine: going, this is quite the setup up you have.

Kyle: That's going, yeah, this is where I go, my coaching or if I do [00:01:00] online podcasts. Um, and I can record four people here. Two.

Madeleine: That's good.

Kyle: Wow. Yeah. More discussions. [00:01:10] So, yeah, that's good.

Madeleine: Um, I think we're good. My notes home. It's going[00:01:20]

Madeleine: Ready?

Kyle: Go the, or anything? Not yet. So, I mean, it's, it's very co [00:01:30] very conversational style. That's like us going for coffee. We can stop anytime, uh, if we need to go do a bathroom break or whatever. Um, okay. Afterwards, if you want something [00:01:40] cut out or you miss said or misspoke, no problem doing that. Um, um, it's, uh, yeah.

Kyle: Yeah. You and I are [00:01:50] having coffee. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Madeleine: Hmm.

Kyle: Make sure I go this right. [00:02:00] Um, maybe just talk for a bit.

Madeleine: Sure. What would you like me to say?

Kyle: How, um, um, maybe talk about your three favorite [00:02:10] sponsors.

Madeleine: Oh my goodness. Well, we're in the middle of a campaign right now with Value Village.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: And, uh, I think we've, uh, [00:02:20] reached our goal with them this year, which is fantastic. And who else do we have? Uh, well we've had sponsorships from all kinds of companies, [00:02:30] so,

Kyle: yeah.

Kyle: Closer.

Madeleine: Okay.

Kyle: Because you, you lost your big main sponsor, right? Was that for the, was that for the, um, [00:02:40] was that for the.

Madeleine: Well for golf tournament or Yeah, for golf.

Madeleine: Unfortunately, Asante had been supporting us for 20 years. Yeah. [00:02:50] And, um, I think some with the changeover of a lot of staff and that over the years, I think there are individuals that had [00:03:00] other, um, you know, uh, things in community that they wanted to support. Um, they still want to have us come out and speak to [00:03:10] their staff and do presentations and things like that, so we'll continue to do that.

Madeleine: Um, but that was, yeah, it was a big loss. But I think after the 20 years [00:03:20] that we've had with them, um, we've made such great connections and community with so many other people there. Who,

Kyle: who, who, uh, who'd you get instead?

Madeleine: Well, so [00:03:30] we ended up doing a shared title sponsorship, uh, this past year. So that was with, um, Brian, who is our board chair with, um, [00:03:40] he's a lawyer and so his, I met him.

Madeleine: Yeah. So, um, he's been a fabulous sponsor with us for a number of years, and then we had, [00:03:50] um, Lum Brown, uh, join us, um, with that title sponsorship. And again, uh, Dave from Lum Brown has been a fabulous supporter [00:04:00] of both our organization and the branch that we have. The sister, uh, branch in Langley, so he lives out this way, but he works in the Langley area.

Madeleine: So, [00:04:10] um, and you got B and

Kyle: I now too, which I was like, I was really impressed how effective that is. Like, the only reason I haven't jumped in is 'cause I'm not sure exactly what direction I'm gonna go with my company.

Kyle: Yeah.

Kyle: [00:04:20] And so, um, I'm kind of like, you don't wanna say I'm, I'm this and then change three months later.

Kyle: But like, I could see how massively effective that organization is.

Madeleine: It is, [00:04:30] uh, they are so driven with outcomes and setting goals and that's what really attracted me to it. Um, over the years I've been [00:04:40] part of a lot of different chambers and, um, other groups in community and they're, you know, they all have their purpose.

Madeleine: They're all fabulous.

Madeleine: Yeah. [00:04:50]

Madeleine: But, um. With BNI, it really is about measuring all the outcomes. Yeah. And that has been incredibly, um, [00:05:00] fabulous. So, you know that there are certain things that you have to do on a weekly basis. You are, you know, they take account for everything that [00:05:10] you've done for your education.

Madeleine: Yeah. Your one-on-one meetings, your referrals, and the thank yous for all the business that come your way. And we've [00:05:20] had so many of the members, um, really jump on board and assist us with, uh, coming out to our events, um, supporting our Value Village campaign. [00:05:30] Um, so it's been a really tricky group. And, and if you don't,

Kyle: what happens?

Kyle: Like you?

Madeleine: Well, there are measurements that they take and so within our [00:05:40] group, they keep everything charted. So you will rank amongst Okay. Amongst that, but also, um. You [00:05:50] get measured as a group against all the other groups in Oh, okay. BC and then nationally and then globally. Well, we've only been [00:06:00] around for a year and we're already ranking second in bc.

Madeleine: Oh, wow.

Madeleine: So that just came about. Um, when I joined six months [00:06:10] ago, we were at, I think I came in as the 25th member.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: Um, and we just reached, I believe [00:06:20] 34 and we're working towards a goal of 40. Okay. So there's a list of individuals. The one thing that I really appreciated too was the fact that, [00:06:30] um, you take a seat and you are the only seat

Kyle: Oh yeah.

Kyle: Of that, of that department, of that de Yeah. Sorry. Um, what do you call that? The sector? I guess. The sector, yeah. So business. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Madeleine: [00:06:40] So, you know, you're not competing with others within your sector and that works well. Two.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: And the nice thing is [00:06:50] that, uh, everybody is very supportive of each other within the group, so you're making those referrals.

Madeleine: But, um, so many people have come forward [00:07:00] to assist us. Mm-hmm. So, uh, one of the members became a board member. Um, he specializes, Jason specializes in SEO. It's [00:07:10] not something that we've been able to have our attention set to. Yeah. So he's come along to assist us with that. Um, we have a nu another member, Patrick, who's assisting us [00:07:20] with, uh.

Madeleine: The revision of our website.

Madeleine: Mm-hmm.

Madeleine: Um, so everybody is stepping into great context. All these great things. Contact, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Especially

Kyle: like the tracking [00:07:30] side. I mean, I see that in almost everything. When you track something, you're probably gonna do better at it. I

Madeleine: think so. Absolutely. Like, and

Kyle: just, it just in your, in your face, you know, like Yep.

Kyle: It's important. Yeah.

Madeleine: [00:07:40] Yeah.

Kyle: Okay. We'll get started. I always, uh, say, uh, just ask for a prayer blessing before I start. Okay. Um, I don't add that into the recording, but, um, so I'll do that and then [00:07:50] I need to figure out how I say your last name. Was it BB Bula?

Madeleine: Bula.

Kyle: Bula. Oh, okay. Got it.

Madeleine: You did. You did. Which is surprising 'cause it doesn't happen often.

Kyle: Okay. Now say, now say my [00:08:00] last name, but

Madeleine: I'm not even gonna attempt it.

Kyle: Okay. I'll say, I'll say Grace a second. Er, thanks that Madeline and I get to hang out [00:08:10] here this morning and, uh, have a conversation together. Um, I ask that you just bless our time together, um, give us both peace and, um, just, uh, what we need to articulate ourselves well.

Kyle: [00:08:20] And, and your name I pray. Amen.

Madeleine: Amen.

Kyle: Okay, welcome back guys, to another episode of the Furious Ker Show. I am here with Madeline Bula, [00:08:30] um, from Big Brothers Big Sisters, the executive director of the local chapter here in Abbotsford, which covers Chillowak Hope. Mm-hmm. And also into [00:08:40] Maple Ridge.

Madeleine: So it's all of Fraser Valley.

Madeleine: So from the west of Maple Ridge Mission, uh, Abbotsford, and then Chillowak all the way to Boston Bar actually.

Kyle: Okay.

Madeleine: [00:08:50] So

Kyle: yeah. Okay. So I got in touch with you because Candace, who works for you at Big Brothers Big Sisters, was at a golf tournament and, uh, my, um, brother-in-law, I think [00:09:00] like 20 years ago already was doing Big Brothers Big Sisters and had someone, and I was like, oh, this is a, I I love what you, the organization does.

Kyle: And so I got in touch with you, or she put me in touch with you and, and, uh, did some [00:09:10] coaching with some of your staff. And, uh, I just love Big Brothers Big Sisters, and, uh, I thought it'd be interesting to have you on the podcast and get to know your story a little bit more. I know we've talked a bunch at Coffee a few times, [00:09:20] um, but hopefully shed some light on Big Brothers Big Sisters, uh, learned a little bit more about nonprofit, talk about Christian ethics.

Kyle: So, um, yeah, how, how'd you, how'd you get [00:09:30] into the world of nonprofit work? Um

Madeleine: hmm. I don't know that there was any specific moment I. [00:09:40] Growing up as a teen was always babysitting. I was the babysitter in our neighborhood and I loved working with kids, so I knew that moving [00:09:50] forward that would be most likely what I do.

Madeleine: And when I was a teen, I did do some work with special needs children and adults, [00:10:00] um, through an institution that we had in Oakville. Um, and I love doing that work. So I ended up, um, combining the two and I went to [00:10:10] school to get my early childhood education and, uh, did, um, uh, went the road of specialty in, uh, working with, [00:10:20] uh, youth and children with special needs.

Kyle: Okay.

Madeleine: Mm-hmm.

Kyle: And you right away went into nonprofit work right after that then or

Madeleine: so, yeah. [00:10:30] I, I worked first for a community, um, organization that was just a, a community daycare. And [00:10:40] then, um, after that I went into working for a segregated institution for special needs children in [00:10:50] the community. And it was just after.

Madeleine: I joined them that the government, um, came forward and had made a decision that they [00:11:00] wanted to integrate children into our school system and into regular daycare settings. Um, okay. So

Kyle: special, special needs kids before that time were not, they were in their own [00:11:10] schools.

Madeleine: They were segregated.

Kyle: Okay. What year was that?

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: Oh goodness. Well, we're going back to like 18, or, sorry, 18, 19. Boy, I've aged, [00:11:20] um, 19, around 87, 88.

Kyle: Okay.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Kyle: Okay.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Kyle: And did you, was that a good decision, you believe?

Madeleine: I think it was a great decision.

Kyle: Okay.

Madeleine: The problem at the time [00:11:30] though is that even though the decision was made, there wasn't a lot of supports put in place.

Madeleine: Hmm. So for our team, we were having to [00:11:40] educate, go into the schools, educate teachers, because most of them who went to school to become teachers didn't have any, um, education about [00:11:50] special needs children. So. It was educating them, it was prepping the families whose kids were going to move into, uh, the [00:12:00] school system.

Madeleine: They were nervous. Um, because of,

Kyle: and this was, and would special needs fall under like physical, special needs too, or just mental health special? It,

Madeleine: it would be both. Okay. Yeah, it [00:12:10] would be both. Okay. So, um, we spent a lot of time, the first few years were all about educating the childcare centers because we [00:12:20] started with children preschool up through the, um, school age.

Madeleine: So we were doing a lot of education with childcare centers, with teachers [00:12:30] within the school system, uh, supporting the parents and trying to make it as fluid a, a transition for the families and kids as we [00:12:40] possibly could.

Kyle: And this was a nonprofit organization that did this work or was it? Yes. Okay. Well,

Madeleine: it was a community, um, organization, not necessarily nonprofit.

Madeleine: Okay. [00:12:50] Um, so I got into the nonprofit world after doing that work.

Kyle: Okay.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Kyle: What were some of the challenges that came up when you did the integration into the schools?

Madeleine: [00:13:00] Um, I think the teachers were nervous. Um, so a lot of education there because they, they hadn't worked with special needs children before.

Madeleine: [00:13:10] So when we talk about special needs, as you said, some of the kids, it was physical challenges. Others, it was a combination of mental and physical. Um, so for [00:13:20] them, they were concerned about the equipment, they were concerned about disruption to classrooms. They were concerned about the additional support that was gonna be provided by, um, teachers, [00:13:30] aides and volunteers.

Madeleine: So, um, a lot of dialogue had to be had, and we ran a lot of educational community [00:13:40] sessions to try and get over those humps of people's, um, nervousness. Yeah. And for families, I mean, for them, they just wanted to know that their kids were gonna be well cared [00:13:50] for. Okay. That there weren't gonna be issues of safety and security for them.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: Um, and that they were gonna be accepted. Yeah. So it, it, [00:14:00] yeah. A lot of conversation over a number of years had to happen.

Kyle: It's kind of surprising that they actually weren't integrated earlier than that. Like, I can imagine in someone that might be mentally, you know, [00:14:10] on par with everyone else, but physically isn't, is now in a separate school.

Madeleine: Mm-hmm. I, I think there were children that were integrated who [00:14:20] had. I would say very mild. Okay. Disabilities. So if somebody was just, um, mentally delayed, you know, we had kids that [00:14:30] maybe academically would've had a hard time keeping up and they would've been kept back. Um, but for our organization, uh, for us to accept them, they [00:14:40] would've had to have delays of six months or more in three different areas.

Kyle: Oh, okay.

Madeleine: So there was definitely that. Okay. Yeah.

Kyle: Difference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:50] Okay. Okay. So you did that work and then what came next?

Madeleine: Yeah, so I did that work until I found that my caseload was getting too heavy. Um, when I went into that work, [00:15:00] it was about working one-on-one with the kids, being able to have that time spent with them and set their goals and work towards meeting those goals with them.

Madeleine: [00:15:10] Um. By the time I left, I had over 20 kids on my, uh, plate in my caseload. And it was, um, it was too much. I was just [00:15:20] basically, um, doing all the administrative work, you know, creating their, uh, plans. Um, but I didn't actually have the time to [00:15:30] be implementing them or, and spending time with those kids. And that's not what I went into the workforce.

Madeleine: So I made a decision for myself that was time for me [00:15:40] to, to leave and go on to something else. And so after I left that, um, I started a, uh, family, uh, [00:15:50] play center in the community. Um, I had had my daughter at the time, she had a special need of her own and I wanted to do [00:16:00] something still giving back to community, but where my daughter could be with me.

Madeleine: And, uh, we had concerns about her being in a childcare center at the time 'cause, [00:16:10] uh, because her, uh, disability was her heart. Okay. And her immune system was affected.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: So I ran a, um, [00:16:20] childcare center, uh. Play center for five years. And that was, that was great. It just kind of met all the needs that I had to meet [00:16:30] at the time of raising her in her early years.

Madeleine: So that was, so it was like a daycare

Kyle: in your home is already, or No,

Madeleine: it was an actual, uh, 3000 square [00:16:40] foot play facility uhhuh, where people could have birthday parties for their kids or they could come in and, and pay a small fee to [00:16:50] spend a number of hours having coffee in their kids meeting for play dates.

Madeleine: And we like a Play Abbey

Kyle: sort of thing. Yeah.

Madeleine: We had a huge, um, ball pit and [00:17:00] climbing apparatus. Mm-hmm. And we had party rooms and all those things. So it's like

Kyle: a business to a certain degree. It was a business.

Madeleine: It was a business. Okay. And, um. [00:17:10] Yeah. Met all my needs at the time. I ran it with a girlfriend of mine.

Madeleine: Um, we opened at a time when there was only a handful of them. Okay. Um, so was that a big [00:17:20] business

Kyle: investment? Like, like to come up with capital and go from a nonprofit thing to like a running a business and that's a lot of change.

Madeleine: We did have to have some capital, but we were very [00:17:30] lucky because there was someone who had opened that place center a year before and unfortunately it didn't take Okay.

Madeleine: And so we [00:17:40] were able to move into this

Kyle: existing, existing

Madeleine: business without having to do a huge investment. So not to say we didn't have to invest, but [00:17:50] it wouldn't have been, you know, it was near not nearly what we would've expected to do if we were doing, uh, something from scratch. Okay. So that worked out really well for us.

Madeleine: Um, the [00:18:00] business was only five minutes away from my home. My daughter could be at work with me. It had, it ended up being just the perfect, um, thing at the time to do. And [00:18:10] because there weren't many around, the insurance companies didn't know what to do with us. Um, and we found that, um. [00:18:20] The families were very, very interested in what we were doing.

Madeleine: Um, but we were lucky enough to be on breakfast [00:18:30] television for two segments. We had a huge front page article in the business section of the Toronto Star. Wow. Um, so because we were so, [00:18:40] it was such a new thing, um, we were able to get a lot of publicity and that really helped to make the business a success.

Madeleine: Okay.

Madeleine: Plus, with my early childhood [00:18:50] education and being a parent and my partner, being a parent, we knew what parents wanted and needed.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: And I think that was part of the success for us. We [00:19:00] knew what we had to do and the, and how to set things up and what expectations of parents, you know, what they had.

Madeleine: So yeah, we [00:19:10] moved forward with success and then sold it five years later.

Madeleine: Okay. Cool.

Madeleine: After that, that's when I jumped into the not-for-profit sector.

Kyle: Okay. And right away was that [00:19:20] intentional? Like, or, or was that just opportunity?

Madeleine: Um, it was an opportunity that came about. So at that time, with all the changes that were happening with.

Madeleine: Kids [00:19:30] being integrated into the system. The government also started what they referred to as the early years centers. And so basically the aim was to [00:19:40] ensure that kids zero to six were getting the best start in life. And so they, um, provided, uh, an enormous amount [00:19:50] of money that was dedicated to ensuring that and organizations that existed in the community could apply to become an [00:20:00] early year center.

Madeleine: So at the time, I was hired by the region to oversee applications that were being, uh, brought [00:20:10] forward, um, from organizations about the, um, applying to become one. And so I assisted for a number of years, um, all those agencies that moved [00:20:20] forward with that.

Kyle: Okay. So you represented the government to approve these?

Kyle: Mm-hmm.

Madeleine: Okay. Yeah, through the local region. Um, when that. Was [00:20:30] done and the agencies were chosen. I then actually applied to work for the local early years center, and that's [00:20:40] where I started in the Not-for-Profit. Okay. So the Oakville Parent Child Center at the time, because it was piloted, um, [00:20:50] they, they were sort of grandfathered in and able to continue to do the work that they were doing for children up to the age of 12.

Madeleine: [00:21:00] Um, but the emphasis being on the, the younger children, zero to six. And so they needed someone who could come in and sort of take [00:21:10] over, um, the work of the six to 12 year olds, um, preparing. Parents for those preteen years in education of [00:21:20] kids transitioning into their teen years. So I was responsible for doing, um, a lot of the fundraising and marketing, uh, at that time.

Madeleine: [00:21:30] Um, I took on the position of overseeing all their childcare centers for a period of a year and, uh, was developing all [00:21:40] the program curriculum for the six to 12 year olds.

Kyle: Okay. So your character is naturally pushing towards more leadership roles and, and, mm-hmm. Management. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And how long did that [00:21:50] last for?

Kyle: Um, what year? Well, I was What years would that have been?

Madeleine: Yeah, so I was with, uh, the center for five years, and then I moved on to taking on [00:22:00] a position with a local, um, not-for-profit called Ker Street Ministries. So it was also a Christian based organization. And [00:22:10] Kerr Street? Kerr Street Ministries, Kerr.

Madeleine: Okay. KERR.

Kyle: Yep. Okay.

Madeleine: And so they hired me to take on their, [00:22:20] um, youth mentoring, um, program. They were trying to develop that. And so my responsibility there was to basically look at the [00:22:30] curriculum for that curriculum, develop the program, who would be involved, all the policies and procedures around, um, what that program would look like.

Madeleine: Okay. [00:22:40]

Kyle: And, and, uh, what was cur like? Was it like Salvation Army sort of thing? Like, like, like, um,

Madeleine: um,

Kyle: like she shelter work or was it

Madeleine: not, well not shelter work per se, [00:22:50] but they were in the, uh, main floor of an apartment building and that apartment building was for, um, [00:23:00] housing. So it was, so our executive director was, um, helping to house individuals that were in need.

Madeleine: Um, they [00:23:10] also did community meals, so they would help people with food and clothing. Um, they held a community meal every weekend. [00:23:20] Um, and that was done by a variety of churches over the time. Um, I'd say probably 80% of their funding came through the local [00:23:30] churches. Um, and then we had childcare and they ran a summer camp.

Madeleine: Um, so they had a lot going on. It was a [00:23:40] fairly large organization.

Madeleine: Okay.

Madeleine: And housed in an area. Kerr Street was known at the time of being a high needs area. Um, and I think over the [00:23:50] years a lot of work was done to, um, work towards, uh, assisting those that were in poverty and had addictions or, you [00:24:00] know, were struggling with just general family issues.

Madeleine: Yeah. Um. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of good work being done in the Okay,

Kyle: interesting. I just started [00:24:10] working as a casual at the homeless, homeless shelter, salvation Army, homeless shelter. Just a couple shifts a week.

Kyle: Yep.

Kyle: And, uh, it's, it's pretty interesting. And, uh, I, I, I enjoy it a lot. Oh. And it's [00:24:20] interesting to start learning how like, uh, what their goals are of getting people off the streets and, and the different systems they have.

Kyle: And, um, I'm not sure how I feel about all the systems they have yet 'cause I don't [00:24:30] know a lot about it and mm-hmm. 'cause it's hard to know like what's, what's enabling and what's, you know, actually helping and, and uh, you know, there's lots of different opinions on that out there, but Yeah. And I know it shifted [00:24:40] over the years as well.

Kyle: 'cause what year would that have been? 'cause I think after 2010 it shifted kind of the approach the government took.

Madeleine: Yeah, it, it did. Um, when I was there, I'm trying [00:24:50] to count back the years now. I mean, it would've been in the probably mid nineties. Okay. Mid to late nineties that I was with them. Um, [00:25:00] yeah. I should have brought my resume around.

Madeleine: I could have kept the years,

Kyle: yeah. Tracked better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. So you did that for five years as well?

Madeleine: I was there for, [00:25:10] I think approximately three years. And, um, the organization went through a really difficult [00:25:20] time, um, and. Unfortunately, I just, I wasn't comfortable with, um, some of the decisions that were being [00:25:30] made there.

Madeleine: And, um, I was asked to do, uh, you know, some things I wasn't comfortable in doing with regards to the funding and reporting and things. So

Kyle: [00:25:40] like what can you share? What kind of things or,

Madeleine: um, well, we had a lot of money coming in and for the program that I was responsible for, um, [00:25:50] I was asked to, um, provide reports back to our funder that, um, weren't true.

Madeleine: Okay. And I wasn't comfortable [00:26:00] with doing that. A lot of money was being shifted around and played with, that wasn't aligning with the funding that we were receiving from our [00:26:10] funders. And, um, there's very, very strict policies around that because all those reports, you know, are looked over by CRA [00:26:20] and in all of the work that I had done, um, you start to develop a relationship and a trust and rapport with your [00:26:30] funders.

Madeleine: And I was uncomfortable in doing anything that was going to

Kyle: Yeah, I can see that.

Madeleine: You know? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, there were, uh, a [00:26:40] few of us at the agency that, um, felt that a lot of, uh. Ethical boundaries were being crossed. [00:26:50] And so, uh, and we had volunteers working for us, um, on projects that weren't being, um, [00:27:00] cared for or managed in a way that should have been with security and safety to the work that they were doing.

Madeleine: Um, so we, we went [00:27:10] to the board and we felt that we had to present to the board what was going on, um, because there were serious safety concerns. Yeah. [00:27:20] And so, um, yeah. So the board sort of circled their wagons for a while and then as boards do, as boards do, [00:27:30] because they had to figure out what was going on.

Madeleine: Yeah. Be, um, I think the director had, um, made decisions that [00:27:40] he feel, he felt were fine to do. Um, and I think as a ministry, you know, so many people in ministry do things abroad in [00:27:50] third world countries. And of course, you know, work safe isn't in those countries. There's no policies and procedures that you have to really [00:28:00] align yourself with.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: So, um, but that's not the case here. And so, uh. The board [00:28:10] circled their wagons. And then I started receiving calls from a few of the local, um, funders wanting to know my, my side of [00:28:20] things. So I had a conversation with the community foundation and um, in the end, unfortunately [00:28:30] the ED was let go of, and that was unfortunate.

Madeleine: 'cause I think he was a good guy. But I think there was, um, I'd say an [00:28:40] ego that just became a little too big. And I think the board wasn't doing their due diligence. Hmm. And he was provided a great deal of [00:28:50] leeway and the oversight wasn't there to ensure that things were being done.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: Um,

Kyle: ethically.

Madeleine: [00:29:00] Yeah, ethically.

Madeleine: So I, um, yeah, so I made a decision to leave and, uh, the. [00:29:10] Board, um, or I should say the funder that I had the conversations with knew of another position, um, and put my name forward. [00:29:20] And, uh, so I had an interview with them and that ended up being Bri Families of Ontario. And I went to work with them for five years.

Kyle: Okay. Brief families?

Madeleine: [00:29:30] Bereaved families. Oh, bereaved Families of

Kyle: material. Oh, okay. So it's an organization that helps people that have lost kids or family members or,

Madeleine: uh, family members. So, well, any loss really. Um, the only type of [00:29:40] loss we didn't deal with was pet loss. There were, there was already an organization in dealing with that, but for us, yes.

Madeleine: Okay. The loss of, uh, a spouse, [00:29:50] a child. And what was your role? A family. So I was the executive director there.

Kyle: Okay. And so were you dealing with families directly at all yourself or was that more your team? That was,

Madeleine: uh, no, I was, I did do, [00:30:00] um, direct, uh, work with them. Um, but we had multiple staff and it's a, uh, organization that does peer-to-peer support.[00:30:10]

Madeleine: So we were responsible for training individuals who had themselves had a loss Yeah. Um, previously in their life [00:30:20] and wanted to help others get through theirs. So we had a very intensive training program. Um, there was, I [00:30:30] believe our program at the time was anywhere between 36 to 40 hours that you had to go through.

Madeleine: Um. And then, uh, they would support, [00:30:40] um, groups based on the loss that they had.

Kyle: Wow.

Madeleine: And we had a lot of Have you

Kyle: experienced loss yourself as well? I had. Okay.

Madeleine: The reason I went, uh, tore [00:30:50] families is my husband and I went through several losses in their early years of our marriage. Um, the first one was the, uh, [00:31:00] death of my father-in-law, and he had passed away 10 days before our wedding.

Madeleine: Oh, wow. Um, so we were dealing with a, a lot all at once. And it was, [00:31:10] um, it was unexpected. He had a massive heart attack. Hmm. Um, so after that, um, [00:31:20] after getting married, my husband and I made a decision to start a family. Uh, fairly early on we had hoped to have a large family. And, [00:31:30] um, unfortunately I had problems in the early stages of my, uh, pregnancy and I had a miscarriage.[00:31:40]

Madeleine: And after giving. Ourselves some time to get through that. Um, I got pregnant again and I carried my [00:31:50] son until, um, a week before his due date. And I was having, um, stress strips done in the last few months of my [00:32:00] pregnancy. And, uh, when I went in for the last one, just a week before the due date, um, there was no heartbeat.

Madeleine: Wow. And [00:32:10] so, uh, I was sent home for a couple of days coming back to the hospital every day. Um, and so unfortunately [00:32:20] had to give, uh, birth to, um, yeah, to our son. And was his name Thayer?

Kyle: Thaer.

Madeleine: Tha, [00:32:30] yeah. And, uh, so that was, that was a difficult thing to go through, um, for many reasons. Uh, [00:32:40] number one, I think, uh, I was in such shock.

Madeleine: I was asked to do things that, um, I think I might, if I [00:32:50] was in a clear state of mind, might have done differently. Um, because I just expected that they would do, um, a cesarean. [00:33:00] And the doctor, uh, said, you know, it was probably best if I wanted to have natural childbirth later on that, um, I do this. [00:33:10] Uh, birth naturally as well.

Madeleine: So after being told, um, I was sent home and, um, they insert you with a gel [00:33:20] that helps you to bring on the labor. And so came back in the next day assuming it would be done then. And it wasn't. I was sent home for another day [00:33:30] and thinking back on it years later, I thought, why did they not keep me in hospital?

Madeleine: They were sending me home. Mm-hmm. Fully pregnant, [00:33:40] knowing that

Kyle: baby was gone.

Madeleine: Yeah. And, you know, psychologically, I think back to that time and oh, it was, it was [00:33:50] rather, um, brutally unkind, I think.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: For them to, uh, to, to do that.

Kyle: Me, I'm not sure if I, we've discussed this before, but me and my [00:34:00] wife had the exact same thing.

Kyle: So it was a two or three days before, uh, grace was due. Uh, and she, um, the umbilical cord went around her neck and so she died. And so they gave her just a [00:34:10] pill and then she gave birth. Na, she sent us home.

Kyle: Yeah.

Kyle: And then she gave birth naturally the next day. Um, but I can't imagine having be, be four or five days that you're carrying [00:34:20] the baby.

Kyle: Um, and then Yeah. Uh, having to give birth.

Madeleine: Yeah. Being sent home twice. And then even on the third day, um, [00:34:30] they induced me with something to, to bring the, the, um. The baby forward, because I still wasn't, my [00:34:40] cervix still wasn't where they wanted to see it. Yeah. And, um, so it was a lot. And back then they didn't have a lot of, um, social workers working in [00:34:50] the hospitals.

Madeleine: So I wasn't seen by anybody from, you know, a social worker, psychiatrist, psychologists was

Kyle: what a family like was there was no, what was, how did family, uh, like, [00:35:00]

Madeleine: um, well my, my mom and father were out here in, in BC at the time. We were still in Ontario. [00:35:10] And, uh, so of course as soon as my mom heard, she booked herself a flight and came out right away.

Madeleine: And, yeah, I don't know what I would've done without her being there, [00:35:20] but, um, it was quite horrendous. And

Kyle: did you guys have a funeral or did you

Madeleine: Well, we did, and that was the thing. And not talking [00:35:30] to anyone, I just, I had the assumption that it would be deemed the same as having a [00:35:40] miscarriage. But once you get past a certain number of weeks, um, it is seen as, you know, uh, uh, a viable child and [00:35:50] you are to go through naming your child and having, um, you know, a, a funeral and all those pieces [00:36:00] again, you know, nobody.

Madeleine: Making you aware of what the next steps were gonna be. Yeah. And when a, [00:36:10] there was, um, taken down to the mortuary, I, I wasn't even told that I would've, that I could have an opportunity to go [00:36:20] down and, and hold him and sit with him and do all those things. So there's so much that I feel that I lost out on.

Madeleine: Yeah,

Kyle: I [00:36:30] see that,

Madeleine: um, time that I could have had and spent with him. So the only thing that I was left with at the end of that was a photo that, um, the nurse takes [00:36:40] at the time of his birth.

Kyle: So they took him away right away.

Madeleine: Um, my mom, after he was born, my mom, um, held him. [00:36:50] Um, I wasn't prepared to do that just yet.

Madeleine: Um, I, I was so emotional after having, I mean, I hadn't slept in three days. I [00:37:00] hadn't.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: Um, so, uh, yeah. So I, I would've appreciated somebody letting me know that I could have done [00:37:10] that once I was able to get myself into, um, uh, a clear mind of, of, um, yeah. [00:37:20]

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: Just having that clarity. So, um,

Kyle: I think we, we had a, she, she was born at eight, I think seven or 8:00 AM and then we.

Kyle: Had a bunch of people [00:37:30] visit till lunchtime and then we left the hospital after lunch and she, we just left her and, you know, those clear beds that they have in the hospital rooms? Mm-hmm. Just left her there and walked out, which was the most [00:37:40] awful experience to leave a little baby there and, and walk out.

Kyle: And

Madeleine: I know, yeah. I, I have so many regrets and I [00:37:50] sit with a lot of guilt, um, because he should have been held by his mother. [00:38:00] Yeah. I should have had that opportunity to be with him. And, uh, so I, I, yeah, I felt How did your

Kyle: husband respond to [00:38:10] it? I guess me, me and Nicole both responded very differently to it.

Kyle: I kind of shut down more and Oh. Started drinking a lot. Uh, um. Mm-hmm. And yeah, we were just on different wavelengths and I actually felt guilty that I [00:38:20] was mourning at all because I heard of, uh, someone earlier, like 10 years earlier that had lost their baby in the same way. And I kind of, in my, you know, adolescent [00:38:30] brain just thought it was like a miscarriage in a way that it wasn't like you don't have a relationship with the baby and stuff like that.

Kyle: And so all of a sudden now I'm in a position and I feel huge grief and I didn't, so I felt guilty. So [00:38:40] I kind of just closed off 'cause I was like, I dunno how to process this. Um, yeah. How to, was there the difference between you two and how you dealt with it?

Madeleine: Very different. Um. [00:38:50] My husband, I think similar to you, uh, he just had to shut down, I think, in the sense of, [00:39:00] you know, trying to protect himself from all the grief, all the hurt.

Madeleine: Um, and over the years that built up and he [00:39:10] actually became ill from it. Um, he ended up, um, with an ulcer, you know, a bleeding ulcer that, [00:39:20] uh, he had to be medicated for. And because that's, I think what happens to us, it, it embeds itself in our [00:39:30] body, all that grief and it turns into something.

Madeleine: Yeah. Ugly.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: Um, he too, for a period of time was, you [00:39:40] know, drinking nightly and he grew up with a father who was an alcoholic, so he and I had to sit down and really have a good chat about, you [00:39:50] know, the amount of drinking that he was doing and that it wasn't gonna be the way to deal with it. Um, I am more open and more of a [00:40:00] talker, and part of that is probably just from my personal education.

Madeleine: Mm-hmm.

Madeleine: Um, he didn't grow up in a house where anything was talked about or [00:40:10] discussed. Um, he grew up at a time with a father who was, you know. Do you have something to cry about? I'll give you, you know, I'll give you something, I'll give you something to cry about. [00:40:20] Um, you know, which wasn't uncommon mm-hmm.

Madeleine: For back in that day. And, um, and his father lost [00:40:30] his dad in the war. He never came back from the war. And so he didn't have a male model to Yeah. You know, to, uh, [00:40:40] show him how to best deal with things. So, um, I, we did deal with things very differently. Um, [00:40:50] I sought help and I talked to my girlfriends and, um, but the help didn't come to me till a few years later.

Madeleine: I, [00:41:00] I thought I had been dealing with it all. Um, but part of my way of dealing with it was to get back on the horse and [00:41:10] try again. And so we did have our third pregnancy with our daughter. And, um, Keely was born with [00:41:20] a very serious heart condition. Um, she was what born with what they refer to as a blue baby.

Madeleine: Um, so [00:41:30] the doctors, I, after I had her, I breastfed her and then the doctors took her away and they could see that her color was changing [00:41:40] quite rapidly. And, uh. It wasn't until 1:00 AM I had Keely around 9:00 PM [00:41:50] and it wasn't until 1:00 AM that the doctor came to my room, and I knew as soon as he walked through the door that something was going on before he opened his [00:42:00] mouth.

Madeleine: Because of course, doctors don't come and see you at one o'clock in the morning. Yeah. So just I could, I, I still to this day [00:42:10] remember, um, that sinking feeling of seeing him walk through the door and knowing that there was gonna be bad news coming. Um, so he explained to me [00:42:20] what had occurred and said that there was, um, a helicopter on its way and they would be, um, taking Keely [00:42:30] to Sick Kids Hospital.

Madeleine: So they wanted to keep me in hospital that next morning. And, um, [00:42:40] my family doctor had heard what had happened and she came to visit me and I told her, I'm not staying, I'm going. She didn't [00:42:50] argue with me. Yeah. You know, the, um, she's, yeah, of course you are. So she signed me out and, uh, we went [00:43:00] to home, packed a bag, went straight to Sick Kids Hospital.

Madeleine: Um, we had hoped one of us would've been able to travel down to the hospital with her, but they wouldn't [00:43:10] allow that. And I remember making the phone call to my husband, um, to say, honey, the doctor just came [00:43:20] in. This is what's going on. He had literally just arrived home and was putting his pajamas and getting himself into bed when I called him.

Madeleine: [00:43:30] And so, you know, putting the jeans back on, back in the car, back to the hospital, he came, um, I can't [00:43:40] even, I think it was two or three days with us getting sleep, uh, back to sick kids or down to sick kids. We went, [00:43:50] um, I just remember seeing her in the, in the unit because they had placed her in with all the preemies.

Madeleine: And the preemies [00:44:00] were, you know, I could have held them in the palm of my hand, but she was born as a seven pound, nine ounce baby. Yeah. [00:44:10] So she just looked massive in comparison to all these other little babies. But, um, seeing her in bed and they, [00:44:20] and she was all tangled up in tubes, you know, they had something in her head and something in her arm.

Madeleine: And, uh, and just, she was attached to so many wires and it was [00:44:30] just, um, a very unreal, surreal, scary thing to see.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: Um.

Kyle: I'm assuming a lot of fears as well that you were gonna [00:44:40] lose her after you lost your son. Mm-hmm.

Madeleine: Yeah. Yeah. We didn't, and in talking to the doctors, there wasn't a lot they could tell us.

Madeleine: Hmm.

Madeleine: Um, what we came [00:44:50] to learn was her condition. Um, 10 years previous, they wouldn't have known what to do. And those babies typically died within days.

Madeleine: [00:45:00] Yeah.

Madeleine: And over the years, they had learned, um, how to, um, do the surgeries that were necessary. [00:45:10] Uh, but there was such mixed information that we were provided with.

Madeleine: So, um, [00:45:20] nobody could really tell us what her prognosis was gonna be. Nobody could tell us if there were gonna be any other medical issues outside of her heart, because the heart [00:45:30] affects so much. Um, so, you know, we, we just kind of held our breath and did a lot of praying over the [00:45:40] first few days. She had her first surgery at three days old.

Madeleine: She had her second surgery at 14 months. She had her third surgery at 24 [00:45:50] months. Um, but even that last surgery, the third one that she had, we weren't sure if she was even gonna be able to have that because six months before that surgery [00:46:00] happened, um, she had a medical condition and they. Uh, it was something that they didn't know how to [00:46:10] deal with.

Madeleine: Um, but when she had her pre-surgery, um, update, she, uh, that [00:46:20] medical condition disappeared and they had only seen that happen once before.

Kyle: Right. Wow.

Madeleine: So I've always referred to her as the miracle baby. Yeah.

Kyle: [00:46:30] Yeah. '

Madeleine: cause if that condition was still there, they wouldn't have been able to move forward with the surgery.

Madeleine: Yeah. So

Kyle: either way, a lot of it, different experiences that, that for sure helped you in your role [00:46:40] in, with the bereavement, um, organization for, for five years.

Madeleine: Absolutely.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: So it was a few years after she went through all those things [00:46:50] that, um, I was dealing with, what I would say is depression and, but it wasn't really brought to [00:47:00] my attention until having a conversation with a really good friend that she says, well, you're grieving.

Madeleine: And I said, but you know, I did that already. And she says, but [00:47:10] did you, because we had one pregnancy after another. I think my coping, our coping strategy was, okay, let's have another child.

Kyle: Yeah,

Madeleine: okay. [00:47:20] Let's have another child in the hopes of having that positive, you know, reinforcement. And so I, I hadn't [00:47:30] really grieved the previous.

Madeleine: Birth, you know, that I, that the children that I had the miscarriage,

Kyle: how many weeks was the first miscarriage?

Madeleine: Um, [00:47:40] I had just passed the three month point. I was almost four months. So of course they always say, you know, [00:47:50] get, get through your first three months and then you can share. Yeah. Well I literally had just started sharing with people, uh, and then I had the miscarriage.

Madeleine: Yeah. So, [00:48:00] um, yeah, and then we got back on the horse, had the pregnancy with THA and I was on bed rest for five months with his pregnancy, [00:48:10] um, which was a really difficult five months. And then we had him,

Madeleine: we had the [00:48:20] funeral, and then after a couple of months, let's try again. Yeah. So, and with Keely, having her come through [00:48:30] everything as well as she did, you know, I just thought, but you know, everything's gone so well. Hmm. Why would I be grieving now? Well, you're grieving now [00:48:40] because you didn't before. Yeah. So, um, that's when I sought the help from be families and going to those support groups and [00:48:50] learning, educating myself around grief and what grief really is and, and how we go through it.

Madeleine: And because it does vary for a variety of people, [00:49:00] but, um. But you still have to go through it in your own way.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: And so

Kyle: I'm assuming through that organization you probably also met, like, had some [00:49:10] public horror stories that, of people that lost

Madeleine: Oh, stories that as difficult. Oh, it's, it's incredible When you [00:49:20] experience being in the hospital and going through all the, the things that you go through, there's no matter what your situation is, [00:49:30] it's, it's, it's hard to imagine, but there are people out there that have had it even more difficult than you.

Madeleine: And when you hear [00:49:40] some of those stories and you can actually look at yourself and say, yes, it was such a difficult time and we went through such difficult years [00:49:50] and yet we brought her home. Or you know, there was always somebody that I met who just, I couldn't imagine going through what they were [00:50:00] going through.

Madeleine: It's just, um, it's heartbreaking. Um,

Kyle: what did, what did five years at that organization teach you kind [00:50:10] of about life and about people? 'cause you're seeing people in their hardest spots. People that have lost, you know, young, young kids, uh, you know, uh, probably multiple kids at a time [00:50:20] or like, just all kinds of things.

Madeleine: Yeah. Resiliency. The resiliency that we have is as a human race [00:50:30] is. Is incredible. It's, it truly is. And, um, because I heard stories of, you [00:50:40] know, suicide of people who had actually witnessed their child jumping off a [00:50:50] building Oh. Who had, um, found loved ones.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: You know, [00:51:00] after hanging themselves who had, I mean, I, I can't imagine some of those other

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: Scenarios. [00:51:10] And, um, so I came to understand that, uh, we all have a [00:51:20] story. I mean, there's other situations of loss that we've dealt with. Um, so, so many [00:51:30] stories, so much hurt. Um, but the resiliency we have as a human race to get through those things Hmm. And what gets [00:51:40] us through those things is such a variety.

Madeleine: For some people it is absolutely. Um, their faith. For other people, it's hope [00:51:50] for some it. Who they've leaned on through the years and how many people have surrounded them to prop them up and be there for them. [00:52:00] Um, it can be such a variety of things and I learned that there's really no right [00:52:10] and wrong to how people get through those things.

Madeleine: It's really just, um, about, uh, getting through them in a [00:52:20] healthy way.

Kyle: Yeah.

Madeleine: So there's unhealthy and healthy means of how we cope and get through those things, [00:52:30] but not in the sense of right and wrong.

Kyle: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's definitely a heavy topic.

Madeleine: It's very heavy. [00:52:40]

Kyle: What, so after that, you left that organization, it seems like five years is your, is your cap point a lot of times?

Kyle: Yeah,

Madeleine: it's, it's interesting because if I [00:52:50] look back on my years of work, it has been five year cycles. So. Um, one of the things that I [00:53:00] didn't talk about was after leaving Ker Street Ministries, um, my husband and I during that time had been doing a lot of work with [00:53:10] the youth in our church, and it was, it was another scenario of the government coming in and, [00:53:20] and stipulating that volunteerism for youth.

Madeleine: They saw as being sort of a, a very important part of education and [00:53:30] growth. And so that's when the boards of education implemented 40 hours of volunteer work that youth had to do, um, for the [00:53:40] purposes of graduating. And, um, so my husband and I had the opportunity to talk to all the youth we were [00:53:50] working with through the church about volunteerism.

Madeleine: And, and when you're in a, um, a church environment, there often is a lot of [00:54:00] opportunity to do that. Most churches provide volunteer opportunities for kids, but um, for those that weren't [00:54:10] a part of a, a church environment, um, many of them didn't know where do I go and who do I talk to? And I've [00:54:20] never had a job before and, um, I've never.

Madeleine: Written a resume. I've never done an interview. So there was this [00:54:30] very organic, um, role that I took on in helping youth find that, and we actually turned that [00:54:40] into the development of an organization and not-for-profit called Community Youth In Action.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Madeleine: And I had started [00:54:50] that organically in our home, um, with bringing youth together to have conversations about those things that they needed to do.[00:55:00]

Madeleine: And so, um, after some time, uh, we developed a logo and, and incorporated and got our charitable [00:55:10] status and all those pieces. So, um, when the opportunity came about at Brief Families, [00:55:20] I had already sort of started this organic process of community, youth and action networks. So I was actually doing both, um, at the same time.[00:55:30]

Madeleine: And, uh, after those five years, um, our daughter had come to us and, uh, indicated [00:55:40] that when she was done university, she, her plan was to go west. With my parents having been transferred out here [00:55:50] 30 or, or at that time, it would've been approximately 25 years prior. Um, our daughter was saying, uh, you know, she [00:56:00] had grown up coming out here every summer, had experienced the weather, the climate, the mountains, the oceans, the lakes, and really quite liked it.

Madeleine: [00:56:10] Um, so she said, uh, that's where I plan on going, and with her being our only one and with my parents both being, um, in [00:56:20] Vancouver and my brother at the time of that transfer still being in high school, he also came along. Mm-hmm. He, at that time, had [00:56:30] gotten married, had a couple of kids, so there wasn't really anything holding us back in, um, Ontario.

Madeleine: So my husband and I had a [00:56:40] discussion and over the years we had talked about whether or not we would at some point move out this way. It was of interest to us, but knowing that our one and only was [00:56:50] coming out here and the rest of my family was out here, we decided, okay, we need to. Start planning for this?

Kyle: Yeah. Kind of a, a little bit [00:57:00] off topic question. You, you say it's your one and only Sometimes when people ask me how many kids you have, I, I instantly think four, but I usually say three because I don't want to like, have the whole conversation [00:57:10] about grace

Kyle: Yeah.

Kyle: And stuff like that. Make it awkward. Do do you have that same thing?

Kyle: Do you think three in your head or do you Like

Madeleine: In my head, I don't. [00:57:20]

Madeleine: Okay.

Madeleine: But when I'm in conversation, I, if somebody asks me how many children, I will say one. Okay. Um, and for the [00:57:30] same reason, it can be a lengthy conversation and it's not, um, I found over the years, it's, it's something that [00:57:40] automatically makes people feel very uncomfortable.

Kyle: Yeah. They don't know how to respond.

Madeleine: Yeah. They don't know how to respond. Um, then all of a sudden there's this awkward, oh, I'm so sorry, [00:57:50] da, da, da. Um, I've, I've become more comfortable, um, with [00:58:00] saying it. So if I am in a conversation we're talking about loss, absolutely. I will Yeah. Share my story, [00:58:10] um, and how much detail I provide depends on the circumstance and who I'm talking.

Madeleine: Yeah, that makes sense. Talking with,

Madeleine: yeah.

‍

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